micared

Hi, our seven year old border collie has developed epilepsy, two weeks after having her yearly booster jabs.....coincidence? There are theories on various websites that offer evidence to the contrary, wondered if anyone here has any experience of this, either as an owner, or vet. It's ( so far ) cost us £4500 at a specialist vetinary clinic in Hertfordshire for diagnosis and treatment, and, although she has been prescribed medication that initially limited the fitting to once a fortnight (albeit with fairly distressing side effects ), she now appears to be succumbing to it ( or showing signs of it ) every other day or so, which is as regular as it was prior to the medication. Any authoratative input welcome, my other half, in particular, is in some distress over the condition of our pet, and we'd love to find a solution.
Thanks in advance.

Tasha

I can't offer you any input, but hope a solution is found soon that helps her. My brother's Afghan Hound used to suffer from mild epilepsy, but the attacks were very infrequent though and rarely affected him.

micared

Thanks Tasha, pretty soul destroying watching a healthy animal start to become ( possibly incurably ) ill. There also seems to be a question mark over her immune system aswell, we had to take her to the specialist because she developed a temperature of 106 last week.....I went to work at 6.30 am when she looked fit and healthy, came back at 6pm to find Claire on the phone to the vet, and the dog looking like she was at deaths door....£ 2600 , and four days later, and really, we're still none the wiser!

fast bloke

erm - get a different vet - I have been working with different vets for (****) 20 years - the link between epilepsy and boosters is more tenuous than the link between MMR and autism, but this vet seems to be taking your money for a laugh. It aint that hard to diagnose and treat (very very sucessfully) epilepsy - last vet I worked for would probably have charged you £150.00 for three nights stay, diagnosis and 1 month treatment. Most dogs he treats (for fits) show vast improvement over 7-10 days. 99% show vast improvement within 1 month.

ScoobyJawa

Gutted for you mate, we have a border collie and would hate to see her go through that, no real advice, just hope you get it sorted - change of vet? Do you not have insurance to pay for the bills?

FLAT ERIC

iTrader: (1)

Agree with above.A second opinion from a different vet would be useful.

I assume they did a test for calcium levels at the Herts clinic?As falling calcium levels can cause seizures.

I hope it all works out for you.From a BC owner.

micared

Thanks for the replies....think I may have put the vet in the frame for grief unnecessarily here. Our local vet is excellent, best in the area by some distance, however, because the symptoms don't appear to be straightforward, ie, high temp frequently without there seeming to be any apparent reason for it, as well as the epilepsy, he's recommended we see the people in Herts. The suggestion is that the dogs immune system is reacting to a " phantom " illness.....the specialist did every test known to them during her last stay, and we are still awaiting the results from some of them. It's got to the point, apparently, that her symptoms are so unusual, the people at the Herts clinic are discussing the case in their spare time! They did suggest that if her increased temperature had remained, they were going to override her immune system with a drug, on the basis that her temp should drop again, should her immune system be functioning incorrectly, however her temp dropped as suddenly as it had risen, before things got this critical.
We do have insurance, btw, however, you're only allowed to claim so much for one illness....we reached that maximum some time ago, unfortunately.

deanimus

This seems to be common in collies, at least for me. A few years ago I had a collie which started having fits at about 6 years old. Apart from that it led a healthy life untill he was 16.

sti joy

There seems to be growing debate about the necessity of yearly booster injections, some breeds of dog seem more prone to reactions from these, I think it is America where they have stopped this yearly practice or are trying to. Some people believe it is just a money making scheme by vets/manufacturers of these drugs and not really necessary for the dogs welfare. We believe we have lost 2 Rotties to this practice but cannot prove anything and were told it is just a coincidence.
Aunt/Uncle have a German Pointer, got to six then started having seizures, they find keeping her very cool during this hot weather, helps, they have got the time to do this, being retired, so they can run after her.
I know vet bills are excessive and I believe a licence for printing money, but yours seem rather large, maybe it's the area you live in!

Redkop

I agree with this, I had a Jack Russell who would always have a seizure in hot weather and her temperature would rise alarmingly. Remember a dogs normal temperature is a lot higher than ours at 101 degrees/f

Jen

Sorry to hear this is getting worse

Nothing more to really add than at the meet the other night, but I hope you guys find a solution, heartbreaking times

Jen

andypugh2000

Sorry to hear this, my aunt has a deaf collie that has fits, he was very bad at first but but now has less due to medication. I have 3 dogs and only had them vaccinated up to 2 years old, one is 12 now and never suffered any problems relating to not being vaccinated, the breeder i got my youngest dog from (cocker) had her last dog die after being vaccinated, i now use ainsworths herbal vaccine on all my dogs, £8 for 3 dogs for 3 years!!!

vets dont recognise these herbal vaccine as they cant make 50 quid a shot on it.

andy

MAC76

Hi,
Our Alsation developed the same problem 5 years ago, the vet just put him on tablets and he has been fine ever since with only one fit in the five years.
I would reccomend trying a different vet, we are in hertfordshire too and use one of the vets in potters bar.
If you want anymore info email me.
Mart

OllyK

Good Vets don't recognise homeopathic remedies as they know they don't work.

Injecting your dog with water is not going to kill it, but then again it isn't going to protect it either. Sadly dogs aren't aware of the placebo effect either so not even that can help them.

Either vaccinate your dog or don't bother but don't get ripped off £8 for a vile of water and think it is actually going to do any good.

andypugh2000

not strictly true, the aboriginies have been surviving well on herbal medicines for many years now, they have to travel hundreds of miles for the nearest doctor so knowledge of medicine plants aropund them is vital, who says this cant work in animals?? vets dont want to believe it works as its their way of making money.

ainsworths based in london also have the royal seal approval on their products so thats good enough for me

OllyK

andypugh2000 - Ainsworths are not a HERBAL pharmacy, they are HOMOEOPATHIC - look at the home page http://www.ainsworths.com/. There is one HELL of a difference.

HERBAL remedies have some place in the world of medicine, and in many cases plants have been the starting points for many highly effective drugs, the active ingredient has been extracted, idetified and synthised in a more concentrated form. All that's fine, although there is still a lot of hocus pocus around it as well.

HOMOEOPATHIC remedies have no place whatsoever in medicine. They rely on a belif that water has a "memory" and that by putting an active ingredient in water then diluting it and diluting it the water retains a memory of the that active ingredient and makes it more potent. The dilution is in the order of 1 part in 1 x 10 ^ 32 which is equivalent to finding a grain of sand in the Solar System. These remedies are water, pure and simple and they rely on the placebo effect to show some "evidence" that the stuff works. This is why in trials these remedies do no better than the control placebo.

The Royal Seal of approval, gee I am impressed. Silk Cut used to have the Royal Crest on it but I doubt that you fed your dog **** thinking it was going to do them good. I can pretty much guarentee the Royal user is Prince Charles who is well renowed as a tree hugging follower of any kind of such nonsense, Royal standing is no indication of intelligence or lack of vunerability to being conned.

andypugh2000

Confused but I stand corrected

OllyK

That's the problem andypugh2000 - so many quack remidies are out there with medical sounding names, proclaiming wonderful results and spouting garbage research to support them that people want to belive. It is human nature I am afraid and I hope what I have achived is some degree of enlightenment rather than you feeling be-littled.

micared

Again, thanks to everyone posting replies, was worried it might attract the usual small percentage of " unsympathetic ", shall we say, posts, seems thankfully devoid of this for the moment. Just come in from work, dog seems fine at the mo., however, that's the nature of it.
MAC76, thanks for that, may well speak to you soon regarding medication, etc, if that's O.K.
Hi Jen, nice to meet you the other evening, especially your kind comments about the dog ( and my scoob ! ).
We were told that there would be an " acclimatisation period ", during which she would stumble about, seem unco-ordinated etc, and that the fitting would continue while the doseage was gradually adjusted to suit her, also that she would seem less smart ( intelligent ). This has been largely accurate, and we didn't expect overnight miracles, however, sometimes watching her behaviour lately makes you wonder how aware she is that she's not " right ", and how her percieved quality of life has changed.
Anyone else with an epileptic dog noticed whether being over-excited or very tired makes them more susceptible to having a fit?

Scoobs_4ever

This brings back memories.

I had a wonderful Border Terrier, Midge, who developed epilpesy at the age of 18-month. She lived to the ripe old age of 13-years.

The fits are awful to experience but after using a drug, I think its called Phenobarb the fits were controlled for around 7-years. Only when she got really distressed did she have a fit.

Then as she got older additional Potassium was added to her diet.

Not all is lost but I do understand that you're thinkng there must be something that started the fits - dogs normal one day, something happens and then bang, your dog has fits.

We were always assured that Midge wasn't in any pain during the fit but the noise she made was horrendus and the loss of bowel control was bad enough - especially at 3am in the morning when she was asleep on the bed - doh!

I would try and find a vet that has good experience with epilepsy and one who cares for your dog as much as you.

hail-hail

Hi
sorry to hear about your dog. As a vet nurse I can understand your problems and as the owner of a dog who suffers from epilepsy I can empathise. Your dog is more than likely on medication (phenobarbitone) which is the most common drug. My dog is on a liquid solution called Potassium Bromide which works very well for him. My dog was diagnosed by having a cat scan and a spinal tap - both came back negative as at first we thought it could have been a brain tumour. In the end it was diagnosed as Idiopathic Epilepsy, in simple terms unexplained epilepsy.
With brain disorders in any animal it can prove to be very time consuming not to mention finacially draining however this is up to you as to how far you as the dog owner are willing to go. All to often it is very easy to have a pop at the vet but where I work we try our hardest to keep the costs down. At the end of the day the animals well being is our first priority.
As to vaccinations and vets "quick buck scheme" I assure you vaccines are there for a very good reason. You watch a puppy/kitten die an unnecessary death all because the owner tried to save a few quid on vaccines. Soul destroying. If everyone vaccinated their animals, diseases that we vaccinate against would become a thing of the past. Think on!!!
Hope all goes well for your dog

hail-hail's better half

andypugh2000

Hope you get it sorted soon anyway

micared

Hi, excuse the delay in replying, one guess where I've just been....yeah, vets. Just to add a variation to the theme, she's developed cystitis, nothing to do with her other ailments....one injection ( with the dog muzzled, she has a " reputation " at the vets ) and 30 capsules of some description, and we're on our way.....vet is excellent btw, saw us at a moments notice, and this was at 6.50 pm! Hope nobody's reading into anything previosly posted that we have any complaints about the people who are looking after her, they've been spot on with their approach....believe its just the unusual nature of her particular symptoms that are causing difficulties.
As scoobs_4ever says, the fits are awful to experience, at least initially, and ours too has urinary incontinance whilst undergoing them, but, like everything, you become accustomed to it after a time....hail-hails " better half ", yeah, she is on phenobarb and PB, still at the experimental doseage stage, and we too have been down the spinal tap/cat scan route. Out of interest, did yours end up on just PB, and if so, why was that?
Just as a comparison in fortunes, we also have a 15 year old female tabby cat, which we " inherited " after a friend of ours died 4 years ago. She was ferrel, and was found in the garden at approx. 6 weeks old....not a great start to life, but she hasn't missed a beat since, still, all she does is eat and sleep, so she's hardly got a stressful life!

sti joy

Going back to the vaccination debate have you seen this website http://www.positivehealth.com/permit...als/horses.htm

hail-hail

Hail-hail here
My dog started on the potassium bromide and that was enough to subside the fits so no need for phenobarb (this could change in the future as he gets older) but have to play it by ear. As for the cystitis -unlucky-try to get your dog to drink as much water as possible as this may also help (flushes things through better) and take her out to pee more often. Hope this helps
Hail-hail

micared

Hi hail-hail, thanks for that, we're doing exactly that, all advice welcome though!

OllyK

Yes I heard about this some time back. There is some logic in what is being said, but so far I have yet to see the scientific work to back it up in any great detail. Until that time I will carry on with the anual vaccines, but it does make you wonder why dogs need them every year and humans don't

Redkop

Even if you don't agree with yearly vaccinations, it's a case of having to, if you need to put your dog in kennels. No kennel will have a dog in without all its vaccinations up to date.

As an aside... when will they bring out yearly Kennel Cough vaccines, instead of 6 monthly ones? I dread taking my dog to the Vet to have a KC vaccine, there is no way she will let the Vet anywhere near her, to shove it up her nose

sti joy

OllyK - don't think there is any proof either way, just makes you think!! we and people we know have experienced severe problems with their dogs after boosters, ours was immune system shut down not long after a booster at 6 years, and another with an unexplained death, both could be argued as coincidence, but then again!!! I also know lots of people's dogs that live a long healthy life after annual boosters. I have come to the conclusion that some dogs cannot tolerate what is pumped into them especially as they get older and others can. I certainly believe that puppies should be given immunity against these dreadful diseases, but as they grow up not yearly. When our dog was younger she had a blood test to determine her immunity every year, surprisingly it was always high, hence no booster. The downside is no kennel will take her for her holidays, so we have to go camping.

micared

Difficult for me to be objective about that particular aspect of the problem, tbh....if I'd been more knowledgable about the " risks ", if that's what they are, I'd at least have been in a position to make an informed decision, but hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I certainly don't attach any blame to anyone for our current circumstances. Just the luck of the draw?
As a contrast, our ageing cat, which I mentioned earlier, has 15 vaccination stamps in her " service history ", worst she's ever had is an ear infection!