MattW

[devil's advocate mode]

It's not the child's fault that they were conceived and born of the world. Society has a duty to ensure no child lives in a environment of poverty.

[/devil's advocate mode]

The fundamental problem of all these threads sparked off my last evening's entertainment is that successive governments have not tackled the trap whereby a scroungerwould be worse off by going out to work.

Most of them know how to work the system by going on the sick or whetever. There was a suggestion recently about withdrawing health care to people who are overweight(greedy fat *******s not medically overweight) or smokers as they are damaging their own health. Where does it end though, the US society provides only basic health care, the rest is funded by private policies, but then private health care is much cheaper there.

I would argue that the NHS has had its day. The health service should be left to the free market where the govt subsidise your health insurance policy where there is a genuine need.


Edited to say - That was moving slightly off topic, sorry


[Edited by MattW - 10/8/2003 12:25:41 PM]

Jye

It's also a right NOT to have children as well. If more people sensibly chose the right NOT to have children we and children in general wouldnt have half the problems we have, all because of people excercising their 'right' to have kids.

Anyway I dont think it is a 'right' to have children, especially not for them to be brought up in poverty, beaten, starved and raped by their parents.

Parenting tests sound like sense to me.

[Edited by Jye - 10/8/2003 1:12:24 PM]

LG John

And that just it isn't it Turbokitty. YOU don't want kids. I bet you like to drive though! What if the government just ripped up all the roads and said, 'get a job within walking distance - cars are dangerous and pollute the environment' Suddenly you (like me btw) would be up in arms saying, 'how can you take this right from me, etc, etc.' Its funny how we are all selfish in our own way

I should stress that I DO NOT agree with the tw@ts that have many kids and just get us the tax-payers to pay for them but I feel everyone should have the right to reproduce once.

What I'm about to say will sound very Mycrofish and I wan't to stress this is mearly an example of my point and that I DO NOT feel this

By saying that you have to be of a certain means/social stature or as Jye said genetically correct you are basically trying to create a perfect self-sustaining society and removing genetic abnormalities, etc. Great, lets go and shoot everyone in a wheelchair or who is missing a limb, or got a disease. Doctor: "Congratulations Mrs biggins its a boy.....oh wait, he's got a heart condition that he might pass on to his children.....nurse get my gun." This would be a great way to breed out all the cripples and people with strange abnormalities that get in my way or freak me out in the supermarket. Why didn't I think of this You know Jye - there seems to be a fine line between you and hitler

[Edited by Saxo Boy - 10/8/2003 1:58:20 PM]

tiggers

So far I reckon Muffleman and Turbokitty are right on the nail with this - it is a question of responsibility and not rights.

Let's just move away from the financial aspect of it for a minute and look at the other aspects of bringing up a child. I touched on this in my first post, but it strkes me that a lot of people don't seem to want to put the effort in to bringing up their kids.

They have kids as "that is what people do" not because they really want them. They then don't have the time, inclination, attitude etc. required to give them a decent upbringing and that is what saddens me most.

Sorry, but it's almost like some of them feel they have to prove they are real men/women by having kids, but once they're here they then just do the minimum. This applies to people across all walks of life. I just wish people would think a bit more before taking the plunge (so as to speak )

I also love this expression "fell pregnant" - sorry, but with the amount of free and frank advice around these days I can't see how anyone can fail to understand contraception - I guess it all comes back to responsibility!

tiggers.

[Edited by tiggers - 10/8/2003 2:11:12 PM]

LG John

*** and hammer do not mix!

You also pay by having children. You create life - a person with experiences, who'll impact positively (and negatively) on others. Someone that'll be a friend to someone, loved by someone, that will aquire knowledge, skills and contribute to the world in one way or another. I recall the guy the bullied me back at school - a complete waster, always in trouble and done jail time. Notwithstanding he is someone to somebody, he'll positively enhance someones life and in a way his negative actions against me directed my life. Actually, if he'd been nice to me we'd likely have been friends and I sure as well wouldn't be sitting where I am, with the house I've got and the car I drive. The creation of a person is pretty special IMHO.

[Edited by Saxo Boy - 10/8/2003 2:11:50 PM]

TurboKitty

Bajie, that's a very personal decision and not one I am prepared to discuss on a public site.

People have differing opinions and what seems the correct decision to you would be the wrong choice for others. Ultimately the choice would rest with me and the father. It's nobody else's business.

[Edited by TurboKitty - 10/8/2003 2:17:42 PM]

TelBoy

<massive generalisation>

Excessively poor people know kids will be a meal ticket.

Excessively rich people know they'll be able to afford to pay somebody else to look after them.

</massive generalisation>

Parenting is extremely difficult, but anyone is allowed to do it. If the same situation existed on the roads, think of the chaos it would cause. Even with exams for a licence, we all know how bad some driving can be. Little wonder some parents are totally inept.

[Edited by TelBoy - 10/8/2003 2:33:43 PM]

ProperCharlie

sorry if this has been said already but I haven't got time to read the whole thread (still doing my assignment ) but as someone who was brought up in a poor household I don't think you can say someone is too poor to have kids. I was brought up by a single parent who worked several low paid jobs to afford the meagre lifestyle that we had. i wasn't unhappy cos we were poor though. in fact i didn't even realise it . so you can't generalise too much. yeah *lazy* people shouldn't have kids, but being poor is not in itself a crime FFS.

Nor is being rich afterwards

Edited to say that unfortunately these day it all seems to be about what you got, not what you are.

[Edited by ProperCharlie - 10/8/2003 5:51:50 PM]

SD

...Discuss

This is mostly sparked by the other threads on last nights 'Wife Swap' programme. I taped it and haven't watched it yet, but everyone's talking about it here in the office and I know that if I watch the tape I'm going to throw something at the telly.

'If you can't afford them, don't have them' was the sentiment of several posters on the subject of children, in the other threads.

So what are you to do about this problem? One side argues that we need more and more people in this country to support an increasingly aging population, whereas the other says that there are too many people in this country and we should be limiting the number of kids people can have, or that us (taxpayers) are willing to pay for through benefits etc.

<lights blue touchpaper>

Simon.

Jye

We need more kids working to support the great unwashed they mean.

Personally I think children are a lifestyle choice though, especially more that a couple of the little b******

Humans are supposedly above other animals; unlike them we can make a choice regarding contraception.

No one 'needs' to have children, end of.

Jye

Obviously a lot of people making lifestyle choices on SN

tiggers

Excellent topic.

Put simply I don't understand why we as a nation give people money when they have kids. For a simplistic argument if I want something I need to make sure I can afford it first and don't expect someone to give me money so I can have it.

For my mind people should only have kids if they can afford it financially and if they are able to devote time to giving their kids a good upbringing.

Unfortunately many people in this country feel it is there divine right to have children and hence expect or even demand to be given handouts to help them along the way.

Money isn't the main issue though. I literally cringe when I see the way some people treat their kids and the way many expect everyone else to do their parenting job for them.

Just the other day I posted about MSN shutting their chatrooms down due to a knee jerk reaction over paedopiles using them to attract kids. The real answer here is that parents should be monitoring their children's online activities. It's the same with TV. Certain programs/films get criticised or even banned as they traumatised kids - they were all on after the waterdhed and in the case of the films had an 18 certificate so why did the kid's parents let them watch them.

I know someone will post saying "well tiggers you don't have kids so what do you know?" Well what I do know is that I'm man enough to admit that I haven't got the time or the inclination to bring up a child properly hence I'm not having any. It's a pity a few more don't admit that before it's too late!!

tiggers.

Jye

"But surely poor people have the right to breed as well", someone will soon say. I say breed as that's all it is.

Alpine99

I have a daughter Tiggers and I pretty much agree whole heartedly..

Last week on Radio 5 there was a report that a scientist in one of the scandinavean countries suggested that stupid couples be paid not to have children as the average IQ of the country was dropping, especially as stupid people had more kids. The reaction of the presenters was outrage.. I thought it a great idea..

Fundamentally I like the idea that the state is behind you to help if you fall on hard times, perhaps through ill health or old age. I think it's another thing entirely to expect the state to look after you because you can't keep your **** in your pants. I know the bludgers will whine but these people should be given vouchers for specific kid related items rather than cash which they spend on beer and ****.

unclebuck

The thing is, having children is sooo easy that even lazy stupid people can do it. When they become 'meal tickets' as well it's becomes an obvious 'life style' choice for dreggs of society. Once the kids have been exploited to get the benefits etc the 'parents' don't give a **** what happens to them, hence all the street crime and anti social behaviour.

This cycle could be broken if the hand outs were stopped. The spinless Labour Government could never deliver anything as radical as this of course.

Old_Fart

We should get matching contribution benefits. I pay 6 figures in taxes a year...I want my moneys worth! 8 kids here I come LOL
Chuck

BOB.T

I desperately want a Ferrari, I don't see anyone offering me a tax break to get one though

weapon69

After last nights C4 Program-i'll gladly have 8 kids+

Never work again and life of luxury [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Although 37.5k is probably compensation for being so ugly AFTER the 8 kids.

Jye

Its madness, the government makes a fortune in tax from all the **** and booze these scroungers get through only to give it back to them so they can buy even more **** and booze.

My neighbours are both hardcore burroo walla's, they have never had a job in their life, go to Spain twice a year, have two cars (on invalidity so free road tax as well) sky tv, and throw parties for their scummy loud mouthed friends almost every weekend.

I clean my own windows to save cash, they have a window cleaner, apparently they are too ill to tidy their garden so the council do it for them. They have five kids, most who have left home, two are single parents so now have their own council house, but unfortunately they have a dozen grandchildren who crawl all over the place at every opportunity.

My summer in the garden was ruined again this year as every time the sun came out they had the bar-b-q blazing, stupid red neck country and western music blaring and the larger pouring for about a dozen other unemployed scroungers.

John Cleese mode - It make me soooo madddd!!!

TelBoy

Do something like they do in China - state financial support if necessary for kid number one, less for number two, none for three and onwards. Although in China people are actively fined for a second child in order to control population; i'm not sure we've reached that stage yet.

weapon69

Fine old people




Ban state pension

banshi

"It's not the child's fault" is fair comment and leaving them to a life of poverty and squalour will only be detrimental to society in the long term.

So self interest as much as duty demands we provide for these kids.

But what of the parents?

Well heres an idea Parenting Classes. And I don't mean half an hour before Bingo on Wednesday! In order to claim full benifit they would need to commit to a full time seven day programme split between them. Disruptive/abusive behaviour or regular sickness means cash is substituted for tokens targeted at the children - so no Sky TV, Ciggies or beer.

The kids would be properly educated and controlled, more importantly so would the parents!

LG John

Its a human right to have children. I'm sorry but you can be a multi-millionnaire or the poorest person in the world but there are certain things that all (except those that physically can't)humans should be allowed to do and that is to have offspring.

Whilst its true that a lot of peeps rip the **** out of benefits its also the case that they help people that actually can't afford children to do just that. You can't take benefits away, that's like saying you have to be rich to create life. The benefits are there so that the child has a chance in life and hopefully isn't born into utter poverty. I want a Ferrari and I also want children. I have no right to the Ferrari but believe me by being born with ***** that are armed and loaded nature/god/aliens are telling me I have the right to reproduce.

IMHO

SiPie

Jye

Do remember that contraceptive pills vary between 99.4% and 99.8% effective, so even if you have taken pretty sensible precautions to avoid kids ... it can still happen

PS And no I ain't wearing 3 johnnies, anti-spermicidal cream, getting the snip and insisting she uses the coil, sponge and a feckin femidom

TurboKitty

So, being able to do something makes it right, Saxoboy?

Say you got your Ferrari but someone else saw it and wanted it. Say that person was bigger than you, or just plain nastier than you, would that mean it was nature's/God's/the alien's way of telling them they should take it from you?

We should have to work for the things we want, including children, and we shouldn't take from other people to provide those things if we can't be bothered to work for them.

I'm not saying children should be compared to possessions, but I am saying that parents should be responsible enough to ensure they can afford a decent lifestyle for their kids. Making a decision to have children is one thing, but expecting someone else to support them, especially when that someone else had no say in the choice, is not on.

Muffleman

...only if you can afford them and provide an appropriate environment for them. Sorry, but these workshy bastids shouldn't be allowed to get away with taking the p155 as they do.

Let me illustrate...

I didn't get a dog until I could afford to look after it ie, food, vet bills, insurance, toys, kennels etc. I also didn't buy a dog until I had a house big enough. Yes it was my right to have a dog before, but my sense of responsibility made me wait.

I will do the same with kids, when I can afford to look after them myself - then I will have them. But here's the pi55er, I can't have kids yet because I am paying so much tax that I can't afford to. Therefore, these ar*eholes are preventing me from exercising my rights as a human, simply because I take my responsibilites seriously !

I reckon that everyday, those electing not to work and claim benefits instead, should be taken to a huge field every day. In the morning, they dig a big hole - in the afternoon, the fill it back up. When they get a proper job, then they don't have to dig the hole. I know it's not ideal, but letting them sit at home and do sod all for their benefits is wrong.

<sigh>

carl

True, but if everyone elected not to we really would be in the sh*t.

Jye

Spie, yeah I know that accidents do happen but more often than not it’s either planned or no protection is used, either from ignorance or a 'care not' attitude.

Like Muffleman says, if you want a pet, be prepared to bear the costs and the responsibility, unless you really aren’t an animal lover that is.

If you want to adopt a kid you must pass a very stringent criteria test which probes every aspect of your life, from your financial situation to your health and age.

Jye

Would we? I doubt it. Overpopulation is the worlds problem. I doubt you could give me one example where underpopulation is making things difficult for the human race.

At the other end of the scale India and China are deffo in the ****. There is no shortage of unwanted kids or people on the planet.

LG John

Sipie, all thats very well but you forgot to pull out mate

Turbokitty - sorry but cars and kids are utterly uncomparible!! You have to strip this back to basics and look at where humans have come from. In the past you screwed, out pops a kid and Ug would have to to hunt a little harder/find a bigger cave to provide. If he failed the family died - natural selection

Now society has moved on and if Brian and Sharron can't afford to feed Chantell Brian hardly has the skills/experience or legal right to disappear into the hills and start savaging whatever animal he can find. I also don't often find family's living in caves when I'm going for a walk. These days you buy food from a supermarket, live in house (rent, mortgage, etc) and these all require money. Money is generated through providing labour/skills/service but money is also saved by companies getting people to work more efficiently and harder and by using machines/technology to replace people. Thus there are less jobs than there are people (very simplistically speaking). What I'm saying is that like it or not we have evolved as a species and familys can't live a basic existance any more (in this country). This is why some people really do need a form of benefits. Our society creates laws, restrictions and different needs and so it should provide a means to get around some of these. If Ug ran out of food he could just go next door smash hell out of Egor - take his food and nobody would give a monkeys. Brian can't beat up old lady smithers next door for her baked beans and bread - we have laws (restrictions) against that!!

Imagine for a minute I was running the show turbokitty:

"You can't have children until you earn £50k a year" How do you feel now? I'm a fancy politian with a lovely wife, a great mistress, a jag, a £350k house, 2 great children, etc. You don't earn as much as me and now I am telling you that you can't have children. Do you not feel a little hacked off? What do you have to live for?