logiclee

News Flash on TV at the moment.

Planes are bombimg Kabul.

Lee

Dr Nick

Lets see if the yanks kill more innocent civilians than the terrorists did....

Lee

Hit em hard is what I say. Only thing to come out of that area of the world is hatred and wars...

Gary Foster

Is this true ?

Please tell me the Yanks haven't been that stupid I feel sorry for the Afghanistan people, what did they do too deserve this ?

codhead

i believe they are bombing taliban resources

Neil Smalley

Here we go

Just been watching CNN. They're using such phrases as 'what weapons systems were in play', it's all been choreographed down the split second etc etc.

In play??? what in hell do they think it is, A video game The first thing in war that goes out of the window is the battle plan, so how can it 'all been choreographed down the split second'

Just seen super hypocrite blair on the TV, 'there is no clear and present danger to the UK from terrorist groups as far as he knows' Lot of good that did that info did the WTC did it?

Terrorism is a strike against us all, ok then Mr Blair. Why did you let out the IRA then

I don't usually go off on one like this, but this kinda of propoganda really gets up my nose.

The first casualty of war is the truth, and that i'm afraid died on September the 12th.

jimi

O hell here is the start of ww3

Peace to us all,lets make love not war.

JIM

Neil Smalley

I will admit however that the tactic of taking out the air defenses so that the dropping food and supplies can commence is a clever one. I wonder how much will reach the people who need it though

Spudgun GTR

how are the afghanistans innocent? were the germans in 1939 innocent?if so, why did we bomb them? they wanted their government as far as i see it.
i think western governments are feeble and have no guts, thats why ******* like bin laden did what they did. they know do gooders and 'new men' types will wring their hands about what to do etc etc. thank god for george bush thats what i say. gung ho he may be, but he doesnt shirk his responsibility.
**** afghanistan, and **** any other country that tries it on. no doubt i will now be flamed , but at least i'm honest

flatten the feckin place, invade it, and then give me cheap petrol, thats what i say

i now have my asbestos cackers on

Crapaud62

I remember watching the Kosovo war on telly and seeing the bridges being hit and the police station. It all lokked like a video game.

As soon as the fighting had stopped I was over there with an aid group and it looks very different from ground level. Just watching it on telly will never bring home the total devastation and destruction that gets caused by bombing.

You can always rebuild buildings but the human damage can take generations to heal.

In Kosovo we visited a kids trauma centre that we were funding and I remember the pictures the kids had drawn of their houses on fire and their parents laying dead. Compare that with the pictures your kids bring home from school

I'm not saying they shouldn't take action against the Taliban but its always the wrong people who suffer.

Lets pray for a minmum of human suffering.

Sorry if this is a bit heavy for a scooby BBS but the news on TV is depressing.

Oz

I can't believe some of the namby-pamby bleeding-heart liberal garbage being written on here...

FACT - On Sept. 11th, terrorist actions resulted in the death of upwards of six THOUSAND innocent people.

FACT - Osama Bin Laden sponsored these actions. Anyone who really doesn't believe that to be the case should read up some more on this guy.

FACT - The Taliban support and protect Bin Landen and his terrorist network. They've had nearly four weeks to give him up and they've chosen not to.

Some other things for people to mull over.

1) The majority of the two million refugees fleeing Afghanistan are not fleeing military strikes - indeed, the majority are totally unaware that strikes were due (this is from interviews with refugees on the border). The majority of the refugees are fleeing the TALIBAN.

2) The Taliban are a racist ethnic group who are carrying out a programme of ethnic cleansing within Afghanistan. They are forcing men to join up with their armies (and killing those who refuse). They kill all who oppose them. A favourite torture method used on those they don't like is to skin them alive and then, while they are still conscious, chop pieces off them and feed it into a mincing machine. A huge number of Afghans want the Taliban out (why do you think we hear about so many Afghan refugees in this country/Europe/Australia, etc.?).

3) We tried appeasement prior to WW2. We tried to believe that Hitler could be reasoned with, that his goals could be understood in normal, political terms. In short, we afforded him a humanity that, quite frankly, he didn't deserve. By the time we realised appeasement was useless, it was too late. Our European allies had been conquered.

I want a safer world for my son to grow up in. I want a world where countries are scared to support terrorism because they know the hammer of God is poised over them. I support these actions wholeheartedly.

Maybe some people on here are ignorant of the true facts behind the Taliban and their oppression. And maybe some people aren't aware of the hatred Bin Laden has for us (he regards the killing of a Western civilian as great a deed as the killing of a Western military target).

If we turn the other cheek now, then - in the VERY near future - these people will commit far greater atrocities against us. Do you really think if they had the capability to deliver a nuclear weapon into the heart of our country, they would not do it?

Hopefully, these actions will serve to topple the Taliban and allow a new government to be formed. Then, the Afghani refugees will WANT to go home...

Gary Foster

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oz:
<B>I can't believe some of the namby-pamby bleeding-heart liberal garbage being written on here...
[/quote]

Your entitled to air your view, but if you want to start insulting people I won't read your American propoganda drivel with which you attempt to justify the murder of thousands of innocent civilians

RB5SCOTT

I'm with Lee, Spudgun and Oz on this one. None of them are innocent, remember the picture in the paper of boys aged 8 or so with guns in one hand and burning an American flag in the other

Scott

Great~taste~Bloke

Well put Gary.
We need to react not over react.
Matthew



[This message has been edited by Great~taste~Bloke (edited 07 October 2001).]

frisby

<I>evil prevails while men of good will stand by and do nothing....</I>

Since events of 11th September, the world has been shaken, airline industry has been turned on its head with Gill Air and Swiss Air going under, and we are given a reality check on the world we live in and all because of the actions of a dedicated, well financed terrorist organisation, headed by bin Laden.

If it takes military action to stamp out scum of the world then so be it.

its all good and well having our fast cars, nice houses but we turn a blind eye to the terrorist problem and then next hijacked plane could be heading to a town near you. We let these people get away with it and they grow in confidence and support.

Imagine the 11th September but were nuclear devices were involved. We have had a wake up call and we cannot come down hard enough on the Taliban regime for their connection with terrorist organisations.

The Afghan people in the main have done nothing wrong other than let themselves be bullied by the Taliban with their join us or die mentality.

In ridding Afghanistan of the Taliban and other terrorist networks, the Afghan people might have the chance, with our help to build a democratic society instead of that which they now live in.

This problem ain't going to be solved ***** footing around......wake up and smell the coffee.

Crapaud62

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oz:
<B>I can't believe some of the namby-pamby bleeding-heart liberal garbage being written on here...

.[/quote]

The key is balance.

Of course I wholly surport action to wipe out the Taliban. If you want to see how evil they are then do a few searchs on the web for public executions in Kabul. There many on the web including one where a young girl is shot through the headand another where the victims brother slits the throat of the accused in a public stadium, YUK.

The point I was making is that its easy to get carried away watching the news and get excited by all the flashes and bangs but don't forget thats real people being killed and not a video game.

I've never been called a liberal in my live !

pslewis

Ok, every *****, yellow livered pansie on this BBS - please PI55 OFF NOW - its going to get a little hot for you girls.

We are at war, dont worry; your cosy little worlds will not be harmed - BECAUSE men with ***** are fighting for your freedom to be a bunch of hypercritical nambie pambie 'ever-so' liberals.

Its about time we (ALL OF US) stood by what the elected leaders of the free world have decided - yes, thats right, elected fair and square ............... so stop the slagging off of men who demand your respect.

I take my hat off to the hardliners on this thread - to the others, well, read above and weep in your Ovaltines

Pete

[This message has been edited by pslewis (edited 07 October 2001).]

Spudgun GTR

Pete for PM !

Crapaud62

PSLewis

I really can't understand why Tony Blair didn't take you on his diplomatic tour last week.

You would have been a great help explaining the delicacies of the situation to the leaders of Russia , India and Pakistan.

Think of the money we could save on our diplomatic missions if we just told them all to "PI55 OFF NOW"

Gary Foster

Lewis, what are you wibbling on about ? I was going to respond but you haven't actually made a point, just slagged of anyone not sharing your exact view of the world.

You are a T055ER. See I can do it too, am I clever too ?

Edit - Meant to have a smiley on the end of this

[This message has been edited by Gary Foster (edited 07 October 2001).]

pslewis

We have the biggest guns, the best men, the smartest weapons (I was involved in the design of lots of them so I KNOW!) - we ARE the kings of the hill at this moment in time.

Russia, Pakistan, India NEED us much more than we need them.

So YES we CAN tell them all to p1ss off!!

What I would have advised is the flying along the borders - we are not technically flying within anyones air space then.

We have AWACS up looking over the whole lot anyway - it is, indeed, like a video game and yes, real lives are being lost ... thats what usually happens in war.

The terrorists, backed and given security by the leaders of Afghanistan, took random civilian innocent lives, 6000 of them.

We, on the other hand, will ATTEMPT to limit civilian deaths - indeed, we will drop aid. Did the Taliban drop aid into New York?? did they HELL.

I REALLY would like to know what the nambie pambies on here would do - doing nothing is NOT an option!!

Lets hope we destroy every mountain with a terrorist hiding in it, just bury them alive - nothing is too good for them.

Pete

Oz

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gary Foster:
<B> Your entitled to air your view, but if you want to start insulting people I won't read your American propoganda drivel with which you attempt to justify the murder of thousands of innocent civilians [/quote]

I'm not sure which part of my post you consider to be 'American propaganda' - perhaps you could explain.

If you are questioning the statements concerning the Taliban then I suggest you check your facts. For your information, I have dealt with Afghani refugees firsthand through voluntary work. They fled Afghanistan due to the oppression they were suffering at the hands of the Taliban. I have heard of:

1) A boy being beheaded for flying a kite - playing with toys is forbidden under the Taliban.

2) A girls school being raided (it is illegal under the law of the Taliban to educate women). Many of the schoolgirls were whipped while their teachers were executed.

3) A man being beaten because he allowed his daughter to travel in his car with him - women are forbidden to use motorised vehicles under the law of the Taliban.

Yes, innocent civilians may die under the strikes of the US led coalition. But how many more people will die - just in Afghanistan - if the Taliban retain power? They are brutally despatching anyone who disagrees with them at the moment.

The other point is that while we in the West (quite rightly) have considerable qualms about innocent lives being lost - the people who are against us do not. In their eyes we are guilty by virtue of being un-Islamic. It is difficult to reason with such a base hatred.

The majority of terrorist groups are ideological - usually wanting some form of constitutional change (i.e. IRA, ETA, Shining Path, etc.). They use violence as a means to draw attention to their demands. Al-Qaeda are lot scarier because they have no political demands. Their aim is to secure Islamic rule of the world and the overthrow of non-Islamic regimes.

In 1998, Al-Qaeda issued a statement that said "it was a duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens, military or civilian, and their allies everywhere."

[This message has been edited by Oz (edited 07 October 2001).]

Neil Smalley

Just a song lyric I found while surfing. Seems to sum things up nicely

You have a natural tendency
To squeeze off a shot
You're good fun at parties
You wear the right masks
You're old but you still
Like a laugh in the locker room
You can't abide change
You're at home an the range
You opened your suitcase
Behind the old workings
To show off the magnum
You deafened the canyon
A comfort a friend
Only upstaged in the end
By the Uzi machine gun
Does the recoil remind you
Remind you of sex
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
I looked over Jordan and what did I see
Saw a U.S. Marine in a pile of debris
I swam in your pools
And lay under your palm trees
I looked in the eyes of the Indian
Who lay on the Federal Building steps
And through the range finder over the hill
I saw the frontline boys popping their pills
Sick of the mess they find
On their desert stage
And the bravery of being out of range
Yeah the question is vexed
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
Hey bartender over here
Two more shots
And two more beers
Sir turn up the TV sound
The war has started on the ground
Just love those laser guided bombs
They're really great
For righting wrongs
You hit the target
And win the game
From bars 3,000 miles away
3,000 miles away
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range
We zap and maim
With the bravery of being out of range
We strafe the train
With the bravery of being out of range
We gained terrain
With the bravery of being out of range
With the bravery of being out of range
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range

Steve Perriam

the people who perpetrated this outrage have to pay one way or another. in a civilised world such an atrocity cannot go unpunished.

hopefully any action will minimise effects on the innocent but there will always be some casualties of war.

however you must be strong enough to stand up for some things, and thats wot the Americans are doing here. if you dont stop them now they wil only look to carry out further, even bigger, atrocites in the future.

they seem a people / regime who do not belive in human rights in anyway similar to most of 'us' in the West.

therefore those who would carry out such attacks and any who harbour or support them should and must pay.

perhaps you should ask yourself if you would prefer to live in the west with all the rights and comforts we enjoy or in a country /regime such as Afghanistan ?

maybe some good could come out of a change of leadership in that country ?

wot a heavy topic for a sunday evening !

steve

logiclee

Steve,

A heavy topic for Sunday evening indeed.

I agree with your comments, none of us wanted war and some of the USA's foreign policies may be questionable but the prospect of doing nothing to stop these terrorists is even more frightening.

Tony Blair has talked a lot of sense through out this crisis and I don't believe he has been the USA's puppett as some have suggested, he has my backing on this one.

Lee

Dream Weaver

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gary Foster:
<B>Is this true ?

Please tell me the Yanks haven't been that stupid I feel sorry for the Afghanistan people, what did they do too deserve this ?[/quote]

Killed 7,000 people in NYC!!

Fair enough, the innocents weren't sirectly responsible but the Allies are trying their best to avoid civvy deaths.

Kick the terrorists ***** is what I say.

DW

Gary Foster

Pslewis

I agree we have the best trained men and the smartest weapons (I was also involved in the design of a number of them).

I agree with a number of your comments in the previous post also, I have a lot of friends and collegues out there

The point is, this is not a normal war, there is no enemy - a lot of innocents will be killed for no reason. This is not like The Falklands, we haven't been invaded. The Afghanistan people are ruled by a violent regime - but they will pay with their lives.

This is not a good situation. I hate that my friends will be there for this piece of sh*t 'war'.

Oz / Dreamweaver

The Taliban / Binladen are f%cking a$rse&oles, they deserve to be shot, don't you dare twist my words to defend those f&ckers all my comments have been in support towards the Afghanistan civilian population

(I shall now take a breath and calm down)

Gary Foster

PS Isn't it good that we can debate such an emotive subject I think this is a good thing.

pslewis

I am 100% behind you Gary - its good we can debate, despite my complete lack of tact!!

I have just watched a documentary about the Taliban, they kill a boy for flying a kite (toys are forbidden), they hung a man because he took his daughter in his car (females are NOT allowed in any motorised transport), and teachers have been beheaded because they taught females - Females are not allowed any education!!

Go in, line them up, and shoot all the ******* lot of them - B4stards

pete



[This message has been edited by pslewis (edited 07 October 2001).]

Blow Dog

I can't help but notice how Blairs tongue stinks of ****.

Cem