Oil cooler myths?? Is it? Thoughts.
17 June 2016, 06:48 PM
#1
Oil cooler myths?? Is it? Thoughts.
Hi, just a general query.
I see a lot of people having oil coolers on etc......
From my understanding the modine is good enough for most applications, but, are oil coolers really worth it?
Most who fit oil coolers have good grade oil in engines anyway, well most of enthusiasts put good grade oil in that are capable to reach high temps that you probably won't get to.
Aren't engines best performance when hot anyway, so if the oil can withstand the heat generated then wouldn't that be ok if the oil is capable?
What is the actual temperature for your oil to get before you actually need a cooler and what's the average oil temperature should be for best performance?
Answer away guys, it's all education.
I see a lot of people having oil coolers on etc......
From my understanding the modine is good enough for most applications, but, are oil coolers really worth it?
Most who fit oil coolers have good grade oil in engines anyway, well most of enthusiasts put good grade oil in that are capable to reach high temps that you probably won't get to.
Aren't engines best performance when hot anyway, so if the oil can withstand the heat generated then wouldn't that be ok if the oil is capable?
What is the actual temperature for your oil to get before you actually need a cooler and what's the average oil temperature should be for best performance?
Answer away guys, it's all education.
17 June 2016, 07:35 PM
#2
I think coolers are needed for the more prolonged harder track use, a bigger aftermarket turbo will get the temps up there a lot quicker than a standard one and if you're running big power it's a given in my book, on a standard road car no so much but with an aftermarket turbo possibly depending on power output.
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
17 June 2016, 07:44 PM
#3
I think coolers are needed for the more prolonged harder track use, a bigger aftermarket turbo will get the temps up there a lot quicker than a standard one and if you're running big power it's a given in my book, on a standard road car no so much but with an aftermarket turbo possibly depending on power output.
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
I need to do something about mine as I'm running 85 degrees under most conditions it would be good to know what exactly I should be aiming for...
17 June 2016, 08:02 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
I back off at 110. But it can get ther quickly now with my sc42 based turbo.
I dont have an oil cooler.
But planned to fit one along with new 11m oil pump at next timing belt change.
140 sounds very high tho is that not maybey the good oils limit ?
I could be wrong. Maybey im not caning it enough.
Whats highest you have seen.
17 June 2016, 08:05 PM
#5
On my vf35 it never got that hot
I back off at 110. But it can get ther quickly now with my sc42 based turbo.
I dont have an oil cooler.
But planned to fit one along with new 11m oil pump at next timing belt change.
140 sounds very high tho is that not maybey the good oils limit ?
I could be wrong. Maybey im not caning it enough.
Whats highest you have seen.
I back off at 110. But it can get ther quickly now with my sc42 based turbo.
I dont have an oil cooler.
But planned to fit one along with new 11m oil pump at next timing belt change.
140 sounds very high tho is that not maybey the good oils limit ?
I could be wrong. Maybey im not caning it enough.
Whats highest you have seen.
That's what opie oils suggested though. It would be interesting for their input
17 June 2016, 08:14 PM
#7
Exactly my point, these quality oils that we put in our cars can withstand the temps no problem, but what is the actual limit of temperature before your going to break something? Will anything actually break? If so what?
A lot seem to just go for the under 100c option because it looks good or it's what everyone else does, but I want to know what will happen.
Afaik only proper race cars benifit from coolers as they get upto boiling point for long periods of time.
I just want to know if it's a band wagon thing as I'm not convinced so need to be enlightened.
And yes I seen opine oils posts regarding it too.
A lot seem to just go for the under 100c option because it looks good or it's what everyone else does, but I want to know what will happen.
Afaik only proper race cars benifit from coolers as they get upto boiling point for long periods of time.
I just want to know if it's a band wagon thing as I'm not convinced so need to be enlightened.
And yes I seen opine oils posts regarding it too.
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17 June 2016, 08:52 PM
#8
...you know what I mean though they built the car and felt the need to add it to the standard spec of the model so must need one...lets be honest they are not the most reliable engines and knocking is a common occurrence due to temps of engine and oil etc...now whether that's down to poor maintenance or just crap oil is anyone's guess but they are not an expensive mod really
Last edited by The Pink Ninja; 17 June 2016 at 08:54 PM.
17 June 2016, 09:04 PM
#9
I think coolers are needed for the more prolonged harder track use, a bigger aftermarket turbo will get the temps up there a lot quicker than a standard one and if you're running big power it's a given in my book, on a standard road car no so much but with an aftermarket turbo possibly depending on power output.
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
My last 2 cars have them as standard and even when I was out at the ring a few years back only after nearly a full lap was I hitting just over 100 deg C so they definitely work but pointless if you're driving to the shops
My thoughts
On my track car. I see 130degrees with a 16Row cooler with proper fabrication to ensure the air passes through it running a very high quality oil that is good for at least 150degrees. I need a cooler, they are designed to keep temps within acceptable limits for hard driving on track.
On a road car I would not bother. Most of the time it is not needed. If you have a big power car and are regularly giving it death down some deserted back roads and you begin to hit high temps for extended periods of time, then perhaps it would be worth considering. But I would not fit one onto a fast road car straight off, only if that car was driven so hard that you began to see high temps.
I would say 130 is acceptable with a high quality oil 140/150 is Ok but you wouldn´t want to hold it there for too long.
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 17 June 2016 at 09:11 PM.
17 June 2016, 09:10 PM
#10
This.
My thoughts
On my track car. I see 130degrees with a 16Row cooler with proper fabrication to ensure the air passes through it running a very high quality oil that is good for at least 150degrees. I need a cooler, they are designed to keep temps within acceptable limits for hard driving on track.
On a road car I would not bother. Most of the time it is not needed. If you have a big power car and are regularly giving it death down some deserted back roads and you begin to hit high temps for extended periods of time, then perhaps it would be worth considering. But I would not fit one onto a fast road car straight off, only if that car was driven so hard that you began to see high temps.
My thoughts
On my track car. I see 130degrees with a 16Row cooler with proper fabrication to ensure the air passes through it running a very high quality oil that is good for at least 150degrees. I need a cooler, they are designed to keep temps within acceptable limits for hard driving on track.
On a road car I would not bother. Most of the time it is not needed. If you have a big power car and are regularly giving it death down some deserted back roads and you begin to hit high temps for extended periods of time, then perhaps it would be worth considering. But I would not fit one onto a fast road car straight off, only if that car was driven so hard that you began to see high temps.
Suppose it's down to what it's used for? So best bet for me is to just see what my normal temps are.
Obviously I'd like to get on track from time to time , but mostly the car is used on road whenever it's sunny etc.
So for me it's probably look and decide from there.
17 June 2016, 09:15 PM
#11
Cool. 130c with a cooler driven on track is probably fair enough given your oil is a 150c limit.
Suppose it's down to what it's used for? So best bet for me is to just see what my normal temps are.
Obviously I'd like to get on track from time to time , but mostly the car is used on road whenever it's sunny etc.
So for me it's probably look and decide from there.
Suppose it's down to what it's used for? So best bet for me is to just see what my normal temps are.
Obviously I'd like to get on track from time to time , but mostly the car is used on road whenever it's sunny etc.
So for me it's probably look and decide from there.
So you might find you would be fine.
Alot of it depends on the size of your bollocks and how long you keep the right boot buried for....
17 June 2016, 09:16 PM
#12
I don´t lift off - I am giving 500hp ish absolute death for 20minutes flat out. So I need a cooler.
But I think with some mods like this - If you build a car obviously over engineer it....however on a road car run without a cooler and see. And if you begin to hit real high temps...then fair enough get a cooler on. Kind of suck it and see
But I think with some mods like this - If you build a car obviously over engineer it....however on a road car run without a cooler and see. And if you begin to hit real high temps...then fair enough get a cooler on. Kind of suck it and see
17 June 2016, 09:21 PM
#13
I would also say. A lot is down to the quality of the fabrication that lets the air flow through the cooler. Before my fabrication was up to scratch the temps would head higher and I would have to do a couple of cool down laps. However now even more thought has been put into the airflow, there is no need for that and I can just go flat out.
I think the main problem with many coolers that are fitted is that not enough though is given to how the air flows through them.
I think the main problem with many coolers that are fitted is that not enough though is given to how the air flows through them.
17 June 2016, 09:39 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
This.
My thoughts
On my track car. I see 130degrees with a 16Row cooler with proper fabrication to ensure the air passes through it running a very high quality oil that is good for at least 150degrees. I need a cooler, they are designed to keep temps within acceptable limits for hard driving on track.
On a road car I would not bother. Most of the time it is not needed. If you have a big power car and are regularly giving it death down some deserted back roads and you begin to hit high temps for extended periods of time, then perhaps it would be worth considering. But I would not fit one onto a fast road car straight off, only if that car was driven so hard that you began to see high temps.
I would say 130 is acceptable with a high quality oil 140/150 is Ok but you wouldn´t want to hold it there for too long.
My thoughts
On my track car. I see 130degrees with a 16Row cooler with proper fabrication to ensure the air passes through it running a very high quality oil that is good for at least 150degrees. I need a cooler, they are designed to keep temps within acceptable limits for hard driving on track.
On a road car I would not bother. Most of the time it is not needed. If you have a big power car and are regularly giving it death down some deserted back roads and you begin to hit high temps for extended periods of time, then perhaps it would be worth considering. But I would not fit one onto a fast road car straight off, only if that car was driven so hard that you began to see high temps.
I would say 130 is acceptable with a high quality oil 140/150 is Ok but you wouldn´t want to hold it there for too long.
Ive never been on track with my car though.
As i have a stock bottom end with around 400bhp i dont want to push my luck with that either.
But i may let it go that bit further now knowing folk have see 130ish.
17 June 2016, 10:17 PM
#15
I don´t lift off - I am giving 500hp ish absolute death for 20minutes flat out. So I need a cooler.
But I think with some mods like this - If you build a car obviously over engineer it....however on a road car run without a cooler and see. And if you begin to hit real high temps...then fair enough get a cooler on. Kind of suck it and see
But I think with some mods like this - If you build a car obviously over engineer it....however on a road car run without a cooler and see. And if you begin to hit real high temps...then fair enough get a cooler on. Kind of suck it and see
What temps you reckon before I need one?
17 June 2016, 10:40 PM
#17
To answer the question.
I would definitely focus on putting the best oil at the right grade in that you can. And changing it regularly.That is the key factor and where to spend the money.
The best in my book is
Silverline Synionic
Then something like
Royal Purple, Fuchs, Motul
Given that you are running a high end oil. I would not worry at 120degrees. As I mentioned if you begin to see north of 130 for prolonged periods then that is the time to think about a cooler.
If it turns out you have to go with a cooler then the main thing to get right is to manage the airflow out the back.
If the air is going in the front and then is dead out the back it is just acting as a placebo and not doing its job and that is the main problem with the way many coolers are fitted. It took a few goes to get it right on my car. Eventually Matty/Yam at MB developments did a cracking fabrication job.
I also saw a temperature drop from using Fuchs 10/50 (good oil that it is) to moving to Silverline Synoinic 10/50
Hope this helps
Cheers
Steve
I would definitely focus on putting the best oil at the right grade in that you can. And changing it regularly.That is the key factor and where to spend the money.
The best in my book is
Silverline Synionic
Then something like
Royal Purple, Fuchs, Motul
Given that you are running a high end oil. I would not worry at 120degrees. As I mentioned if you begin to see north of 130 for prolonged periods then that is the time to think about a cooler.
If it turns out you have to go with a cooler then the main thing to get right is to manage the airflow out the back.
If the air is going in the front and then is dead out the back it is just acting as a placebo and not doing its job and that is the main problem with the way many coolers are fitted. It took a few goes to get it right on my car. Eventually Matty/Yam at MB developments did a cracking fabrication job.
I also saw a temperature drop from using Fuchs 10/50 (good oil that it is) to moving to Silverline Synoinic 10/50
Hope this helps
Cheers
Steve
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 17 June 2016 at 10:41 PM.
17 June 2016, 11:04 PM
#18
Thanks Steve, points noted, gives me something to work with.
Yes I do regular oil changes probably every 1-2k miles tbh as most of time cars just sat there and I feel oils not getting properly used.
I did see that thread on silver line and will be getting on next oil change.
Yes I do regular oil changes probably every 1-2k miles tbh as most of time cars just sat there and I feel oils not getting properly used.
I did see that thread on silver line and will be getting on next oil change.
18 June 2016, 10:31 AM
#19
I would also say Busta that it is also down to spec of the engine as well.
My engine is not another forged engine. It is a very very good high compression engine with forged components in a CDB with a lot of work put into the tolerances ect, blah blah yawn...you get the picture. It is designed to be pushed hard and operate at a relatively high temps.
On a lesser modified engine I would be watching the temps a bit more. So I would look at your build and have it in your head given its spec as to how comfortable you are with running it at higher temperatures.
If it is all singing and dancing and you put an oil in that is designed to operate at high temps. Then there should not be a problem.
My engine is not another forged engine. It is a very very good high compression engine with forged components in a CDB with a lot of work put into the tolerances ect, blah blah yawn...you get the picture. It is designed to be pushed hard and operate at a relatively high temps.
On a lesser modified engine I would be watching the temps a bit more. So I would look at your build and have it in your head given its spec as to how comfortable you are with running it at higher temperatures.
If it is all singing and dancing and you put an oil in that is designed to operate at high temps. Then there should not be a problem.
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 18 June 2016 at 10:33 AM.
18 June 2016, 12:10 PM
#20
I do a lot of driving in mountainous areas of Europe and going uphill in 25 degree temperatures in Spain I can go from 90 to 120 in less than five minutes on an LM450.
Personally I would not be comfortable running above 120 for any extended period of time even with a top quality ester. The oil manufacturers might say it's fine but I'd rather not take the risk. I feel the same with service intervals on modern cars - sometimes they can go 20+k miles without a scheduled oil change but I'll always change the oil more frequently than that.
Personally I would not be comfortable running above 120 for any extended period of time even with a top quality ester. The oil manufacturers might say it's fine but I'd rather not take the risk. I feel the same with service intervals on modern cars - sometimes they can go 20+k miles without a scheduled oil change but I'll always change the oil more frequently than that.
18 June 2016, 12:49 PM
#22
I would also say Busta that it is also down to spec of the engine as well.
My engine is not another forged engine. It is a very very good high compression engine with forged components in a CDB with a lot of work put into the tolerances ect, blah blah yawn...you get the picture. It is designed to be pushed hard and operate at a relatively high temps.
On a lesser modified engine I would be watching the temps a bit more. So I would look at your build and have it in your head given its spec as to how comfortable you are with running it at higher temperatures.
If it is all singing and dancing and you put an oil in that is designed to operate at high temps. Then there should not be a problem.
My engine is not another forged engine. It is a very very good high compression engine with forged components in a CDB with a lot of work put into the tolerances ect, blah blah yawn...you get the picture. It is designed to be pushed hard and operate at a relatively high temps.
On a lesser modified engine I would be watching the temps a bit more. So I would look at your build and have it in your head given its spec as to how comfortable you are with running it at higher temperatures.
If it is all singing and dancing and you put an oil in that is designed to operate at high temps. Then there should not be a problem.
So will keep an eye and asses.
I did have coolant issues though, but I've fitted a couple of parts to combat that at high boost.
19 June 2016, 10:47 AM
#25
That's quite extreme, there is no way you need one that big. I hope you got a thermostatic control for it...
20 June 2016, 08:43 AM
#30
Wouldn't an unnecessary oil cooler risk keeping oil temps too low? But assuming one is required where's the best place to fit it? I've seen some with the oil cooler stuck where the TMIC used to live, on top of the engine. Presumably this isn't the best place?