Mellow Yellow !

iTrader: (1)

OK....in search of more "safe" power I'm close to having supply and fit of Power Engineerings equal length manifolds !!!! (to my existing TSL de-cat unblanked downpipe, Scorpion mid and backbox...all de-cat of course)

Now at £875 plus VAT plus fitting....it ain't cheap....as well as a round trip from me of nearly 600 miles

So, am I doing the right thing ?

I'm told from the P.E. boys that I should get at least 25 - 30 bhp and lbs torque extra and mid range torque will be noticibly better ?

Thoughts please before I spend my dosh

Chris

Matt Churchill

Chris, with figures like that, it has got to be worth it surely!

Adam M

chris dont do it.

mail me offline.

madras

Mellow,

Check out Dynomite Scoobies on the Scoobynet home page its got rolling road results from PE with various modifications and there resulting power increases, I'm sure there are some results on there form the fitting of an equal length manifold.

Pete

PING

Check out Stephen Dones site and comments on this piece of kit ... He's very impressed

www.steve.ukmail.org/car.

Steve

[Edited by PING - 4/17/2002 6:00:10 PM]

mikeesingh

iTrader: (3)

i had one but didnt fit it, you will loose the boxer note
get a hks one instead, its cheaper and you dont loose the boxer note

mikee

Mellow Yellow !

iTrader: (1)

Ooooer....mixed emotions....Adam...you're like my guardian angel at the mo.... ...I've mailed you mate

nom

Doesn't that mean that the HKS one isn't equal length?

piravlos

i ve seen the HKS manifold, and I can assure you that it is not equal length... nor Zerosports, nor Prova. The only equal length one is JUN. I don't know if it is a coincidence but PE manifold is virtually identical to the JUN one . I myself got a JUN manifold on my scoob, the car pulls much stronger throughout the rev range, particularly mid to top, the fact that I ve lost the boxer sound does not bother me, actually now the car sounds like a GSXR
Performance increase around 10 horses but considerable increase in torque

catflap

ive hered one with equal manifold, i thnk it was dodge T.

IT SOUNDS STUNNING, yes you loose the thud thud thud thud, but the sound you get its far far nicer, its like a big bike but deeper.

It reminded me of a rally car when i hered it, id love to get one, are there any down sides to it ? anyone?

Adam M

sorry to scare everyone.

To put things straight, none of the after market manifolds is equal length, even the pe/jun, but these are the closest to it. Equal length is not the reason for the change of the boxer. None of the market tubular manifolds properly retain the boxer sound, this is due to the resonance characteristocs of the heavier cast headers. Tbular headers can actually make the car quieter.

The reason I asked chris to mail me, was to tell him thathe should consider the hks headers which are beautifully made and considerably cheaper if you know where to buy them (like over 300 cheaper).

We know they work well too. I like them so much that I do have some.

My other concern was people making their cars breathe too well without considering how lean they will be running if still on the standard map. Each time you change pipes, and remove cats etc, you increase volumetric efficiency, in the process you need more fuel to maintain the a/f ratio.

The standard map is only so rich. I would rather go for an aftermarket ecu, or on a P1 for example consider an ecutek first. Fit a lambda link and make sure you dont run too lean for the map to cope, otherwise you will increase egt, and promote det which can kill your engine.

There is no question though that the headers do improve breathing.

piravlos

Adam, from my personal experience, the Jun manifold has lowered my egts. I agree that you need to have a remap, but if you use a boost controller and set boost to 1.1 bar you won't have problems with fuelling. And something else, you dont get overboost with an uprated manifold like you do with a front pipe, to the contrary the cylinders are working more efficiently...

SecretAgentMan

Piravlos...ummm...if the engine has less restrictions on the way out...wouldn't that increase flow...yes...? Which in turn produces more gasses to the turbocharger...and we get overboost - but that's easily sorted with a boost controller, just as you said P.



/J

DodgeT

Cheers Catflap!

My equal length headers were followed by a remap so everythings running pretty sweet, for now anyway.
Gotta say I miss the traditional scooby sound, but its outweighed by the huge improvement mid range, & it still sounds pretty good.

Just trying to decide whether to swap my high flow cat centre for a straight through scoobysport ie. no cats at all!!

Also Catflap, youll like my waterspray even more now, as it works!!!!

[Edited by DodgeT - 4/18/2002 7:34:52 AM]

JamesS

Fitted the HKS (nearly) equal length headers two weeks ago.

Allready had big turbo, full exhasut inc uppipe.

The HKS headers lost a touch of low end turbo responce. But from 3300 - 7000 torque and hence power is significantly improved. How does 20 bhp and 25lbft sound, almost everywhere? (On PS rollers)......

Hobbsy

Ok everyone lets get some good facts about these, I have had a set of unequal length headers fitted and removed them due to massive increase in turbo spool up time(Similar to large turbo escort). Have any of you other guys noticed this and how did you get round it. The car was so much less tractible than B4 that the only choice was to remove the things. Please everyone who has exprience comment.

Mellow Yellow !

iTrader: (1)

Yikes....what have I started....

JamesS

Hobbsy,

Yes I did loose a bit of low end turbo responce.

I went from a TD04 running 1.2Bar, to a VF30 running 1.2bar, to a flowed std header to a flowed HKS header.

Compared to the TD04 I have lost about 500-600rpm, in terms of boost threshold. However from 3000 onwards torque and power is hugely increased.

If you had a major issue with spool-up I would suggest the headers you used had primary pipes too large........basically the HKS headers are awesome!

Adam M

you probably would have lost 500 to 600 rpm anyway going from a td04 to a significantly larger VF30!

headers may even have helped you.


The effect of the headers depends on their design, diameter construction etc. thats why |I recommend the HKS which I know to work well having seen them on a few cars and chatting with the owners and mappers.

Piravlos,

along with what jerry added, have to say that 1.1 bar with standard headers is not the same as 1.1 bar with tubular headers if the volumetric efficiency of the engine has improved.


Eg. to make it clearer, 1.1 bar on a turbo the size of me would not be flowing the same mass of air as 1.1 bar on a TD04, even though the boost is the same, the former requires much more fuel.

the tdo4 might make 270bhp, but the me size baby could put out several thouasnd bhp if the rest of the hardware matched.

Headers out the box bolted to the car can make things worse, thatss because to make full sue of them you need a complete remap, you can adjust fuelling and timing (according to pat and people whop know what they aretalking about with mapping) to bring the turbo in much quicker.

I believe R19KET has discussed this in the past with reference to fitting his MRT headers. In that situation, he had to add 25% more fuel to get the a/f ratio back where it should be. I was in the car and the difference it made was incredible, even with fat bloaters like me, moray and pat weighing it down.

CraigH

Agree with Adam on this.

If you do it go for HKS - they are a work of art.

As to 25-30hp increase - if only it were that easy

Although you may get 25-30hp increase SOMEWHERE in the rev range, fitting these will most certainly not give you say 330hp if you already have 300.

Hobbsy

Craig has hit the nail on the head all these claims of 25 to 30 bhp may be true( but doubt if that much) but where in the rev range, and how much have you lost lower down. In real world driving I prefer the standard headers over the partiticular type I had.

JamesS

VF30 running 1.2bar with flowed std headers Vs VF30 running 1.2bar with HKS headers - Torque down between 2200 and 3200rpm, similar torque from 3200 to 3600, from 3600 to 7000 a huge increase in torque.

I understand the comments about 20-30bhp oh yeah, or course etc etc. I did not expect a large increase with the HKS, and allready had it in mind not to keep them if they did not deliver. But they do. I have gained at least 20lbft of torque EVERYWHERE above 3600 - 4000rpm. It also took power from 270bhp to 299bhp, both at PS, about 2 weeks apart with similar ambient and running conditions. So approx 30bhp at the top end.........

ITs worth noting that I have a FULL exhaust including the turbo uppipe. If you run headers with the standard uppipe. this will reduce the gains - the uppipe really is nasty internally.

PS the HKS headers duplicate the original cast headers exactly ie there is still a mismatch between the openings in the flange and the exhasut ports. I flowed these as well!

R19KET

First off, tubular manifolds were never designed, with the use of a TD04 in mind. Nor would they be expected to give the best gains without a re-map.

If you want a "fast" car, you want max boost from 3500~4000rpm, to the red line. If you want a car that "feels" fast, then hitting max boost at circa 2500rpm will "feel" great, but will be shot by 5500rpm.

Horses for courses.

Mark.

JamesS

Absolutley!

Neal Gibbons

Here's my experience with ScoobySport headers.......

Car is UK MY00 with ITG and SS downpipe.

On the RR at PE the car showed a torque gain from 2800 RPM onwards, it lost nothing below this figure. The Torque started to roll off around 5000 RPM becoming the same at 5500 RPM. Peak BHP was the same at 6000RPM, 230BHP.

The max peak torque gain was 26ftlb with 20 being the average from 3K to 5K RPM.

I was advised by ScoobySport that I should really get a remap to get the full benifit from them, this I intend to do at PE.

At motorway speeds in 5th the car is far more responsive, overtaking much improved.

I bought mine second hand and saved a lot! There are cheaper ways to get this sort of gain but combined with a remap I am hoping that the expense will be worth it.

Neal

dfullerton

GROUP BUY

dfullerton

Group buy ?

hunswon

Loads of great info comming out of this thread. Still trying to deside which one to go for. I also plan to get a Motec or Gems ECU installed at the same time. Should be interesting to see what figgers I get.

Nate

nom

I'm having the same dilemma.
To me, it's between the HKS & the PE one. There's others out there, but they are harder to get hold of.
So far, it seems that the opinion on the HKS is that it's excellent build quality & is good torque (as long as mapping is done), but it's not very equal length & doesn't match up ports as well as it could. Scoob beat is also kept
The PE one has little feedback, but appears to be good quality, is about as equal length as possible to get, good torque improvement (again mapping required), scoob beat is lost . Matches up with ports well.
From this, it seems to me that if the aim is to have well-matched ports & equal lengths, the PE one is better. If it's more complicated than that (doubtless ), then the division gets fuzzier.
Personally, I like the idea of as equal-length as possible, as if the loading across all cyliders is as equal as possible (ignore the also rather iffy & uneven fuel supply ), as little possible is being strained at any given level (nothing needs to be throttled back to look after the cylinder at 'the back of the queue'). But then I'm no expert

PING

Nom,

I'm a novice on all this, but your logic seems to be spot on to me... shame about the Scoob beat loss though

Are you saying that this equal length manifold idea will help control/even out in cylinder temps and such like?

Steve