EvilBevel

DISCLAIMER: not wanting to take side in the Company X/Anders debate. Please note.

Bob, I think you raise a few valid points, and I for one hope that time is "ready" to get some more details discussed (about blowing engines/tuning in general, not that particular incident) with less emotion than last time.

I reread the first 10 pages of Drivetrain history last week, and at that point in time almost every question about tuning had a reference about "got to CompanyX if you want to do it properly". (meant in an observing not argumentative way, please read as intented)... were they ("we") wrong ? naive ? why did the boat tip so much to the other side ?

That got me thinking... Impreza (commercial) tuning is still very very young/amateurish in the UK/Europe. Re-reading those first pages puts things in perspective... Link was "something someone had heard of", Powerstation was completely unknown (as was the Unichip)... the "collective" knowledge/experience on the BBS was surely less than it is today.

But we still seem to be grasping at straws about finding out why exactly (blatant cases of mis-tuning apart) our engines let go.

I'm hoping that the US guys & gals will - after the initial mistakes - create a lot more "info" on what works (safely) and what doesn't. It's a big market out there, and they are crazy enough (joke, OK ) to try just about anything on their cars.

I'm also feeling very unfortunate to not be able to read Japanese, as they seem to be a few lengths ahead of us as well ...

Theo

Adam M

Bob, I take your point, it is reasonable.

But most of the gripe with the whole thing was related wto the way in which the company dealt with the customer.

I personally found this more notable with morays car, the cost of the damage to which, he has not yet recovered, even though the circumstances were irrefutable.

With regard to the 22B, ok fair point, but my car doesn't det at all on the standard ecu with 97 and octane booster, which is how I always run it, and also how Anders always ran his.

Chuck didn't bu t now does.

If your point is relating to the specific fragility of the 22B, then this really is unsubstantiated, besides, there are plenty of similarly equipped cars which failed due to det and not no. 3 big end.

1 major issue remains for me, and that is why the product has been withdrawn?

Perhaps the reasoning behind this might shed some light on the overly contraversial discussions that were fuelled all those years back.

bob

Ian/
Thank you; this is what I have been wanting to hear. The extra tuning of the Subaru does not increase the likelihood of the engine going bang. So how can we then blame tuning companies such as PE when the thing goes **** up?
Adam m/
I don’t want to go into the ins and outs of an individual’s car.
I am not saying the 22B is any different from the rest of the Impreza’s they are all getting these problems.
It was you who brought up the 22B/Anders debate. I would much rather stick to the Impreza’s in general and not just an individual’s car.
You are now going on to Moray’s car I believe PE held there hands up to the fact that a Solenoid pipe was not connected tight enough and paid for an engine rebuild for him. Moray’s car has blown again is this also PE fault? Or are we blaming someone else now.
Please try not to bring up individuals cars unless it is as a general example about all Impreza’s. We don’t want to cause a problem for Simon do we?
You say Quote [1 major issue remains for me, and that is why the product has been withdrawn?]
I would have thought that obvious, I think PE were charging about £600-£700 for the remap lets say they make £300 profit. I know of 3 engines they held there hands up to and rebuilt at a cost of £2000-£3000 each. After all this people, I won’t say lie but slag the company down. What an insurance policy that would be if you buy a Subaru have it mapped by PE then if it goes wrong they pay for it. Must be good bet as Subaru’s have a tendency to blow up anyway.
You have to run your car on 97 Ron and octane booster I take it that’s because there is no longer 98 Ron. What happens if the petrol station has a bad batch of fuel in the pumps? Say 95 Ron instead of 97 you may have a knocklink but what about all the others who have not.
Just a few things for you all to think about.

R19KET

Bob,

The law of averages says, that however "bad" a product is, there will always be some successes/happy customers, and that however "good" a product, there will always be some failures/unhappy customers.

Don't forget that there are various reasons for bearing failure, lack of oil, is one, DETTONATION, another.

Now, you have actually made a VERY interesting statement...

"The MY01 has had ecu work acording to Pete Croney to try to stop this problem."

This implies that the problem IS A MAP/MAPPING ISSUE, and not "oil surge, or supply related".

It still amazes me, that with all these "tuning experts" having to rebuild SO MANY engines, NOT ONE OF THEM, can give us a definitive answer to the problem

I believe that PE stopped offering the "Phase 1", particually for the STi's, which they claimed were already close to their limits. PE, or any tuner, can't have it both ways. Either way, the tuner is responsible for making sure the product he is offering is safe.

If they ALL spent as much time with R&D, and testing, as they did with marketing, and trying to sell us the products, we'd all be better off.

Mark.

Adam M

I have to agree with mark, even though I hate to .

The famous failure some time back on a 22B, was not a big end failure, if it was, then the presence of det should not be ruled out.

The pistons on that car, showed massive signs of detonation, (relating to mapping - is more than likely), but crucially the failure occured just 300 miles after a remap, after many thousands of miles of flawless running.

Without meaning to reopen old wounds, ask moray mackenzie to state the facts relating to the tuner related problems with his car.

He probably won't because he is a good moderator, and the company advertise on this website, so it would constitute a conflict of interest. Needless to say, there was no doubt whatsoever of where the blame lay.

Greg115

A change in the mapping for number 3 cylinder says to me that Subaru are trying to control the loading better on that cylinder.
Has it not been said that number 3 cylinder runs hot due to its location by the turbocharger.
This would suggest that the mixture in that cylinder should be different due to outside influences.
If no signs of detonation are shown on the piston crown on removal, then there can only be one diagnosis. That is, that the bearing has failed due to metal to metal contact caused by too much load on the cylinder/insufficient oil pressure - too high temp of oil or a design factor in the engine that starves the bearing of oil.

I am not fully familiar with this engine so cannot comment further on possible design factors - however under piston cooling oil jets may cause starvation when oil is outwith operating tolerances.

With the wealth of experience that tuning companies have with this engine - you would have thought that either they or Subaru would have found some answer by now. I cannot understand why we have been fumbling about in the dark about this issue for so long.
Greg

Adam M

Greg i totally agree, except for one thing which I didnt understand and so haev to ask you about.

You mention oild squirters on the underside of the piston!

Are you saying these are a good thing, or bad?

Not really sure.

carlos_hiraoka

Mark,

If no. 3 cylinder is the one that runs closest to the turbo, one thing that can be done is to check if this cylinder gets the same amount of fuel as the rest of the cylinders. If you take a close look at the fuel rail that joins cylinder 2&4 with 1&3 you might see that is twisty with sharp bends and very restrictive. Maybe an interesting research would be to measure the air:fuel ratio at cylinder 3, and check if it is leaner or check the injector flow of the whole system (you may come to a surprise). Maybe that is why Grp. N rally cars use a modified fuel rail ?????

carlos_hiraoka

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't cylinder no. 3 the one were the fuel regulator is located ?????
If so I think this one is that the last cylinder to get fuel .....


Carlos H.

bob

Hi Mark
Agree with you on this you give very good answer. But how can a company any company not just PE guarantee there product when there are so many Impreza’s going bang anyway. If they did not tune the car would it have gone bang anyway?
Take my last car you know the hesitating bag of sh!te. This was a link car on the rolling road it detted like a good um. I was assured it would not do this on the open road, as the car would be cooler. But who’s to say I won’t be in a traffic jam left idling then give it a boot full ting ting bang. The link was off and the car sold before you could say jack whatshisname.
Yes perhaps the tuning companies should spend more time with R&D and do extensive testing, but perhaps it would help if the cars did not blow up as std let alone with a bit of tuning.
After going to many a Rolling Road session and hearing tuned and STD cars detting I think the Impreza’s have a very poor engine and why they have not sorted this problem out I don’t know.

bob

Adam M/
I did not want to bring back the famous 22B. With its thousands of miles of flawless running. Especially the ones at 155 bouncing off the rev limiter. But consider this, when Chuckster had his 22B (std car) on PowerStation’s rollers we all heard it detting and pinging. How long the car had been detting is anybody’s guess but I would have thought from new. If Chuckster than has the car tuned this small extra strain could be enough to blow the already weakened engine. Does Chuckster blame the tuning company or should he say it was a fault with the 22B from the start?

Sorry Chuck for using you as an example.

IWatkins

Yada, yada...

Basically it comes down to this:

<B>Standard Subaru Impreza Turbo engine is prone to throw No.3 bearing (and related parts) for no good reason, at any time. To make this more likely to happen, drive the car flat out, in top gear for an extended period (more than 1 second). To be really certain, have it bouncing off the rev. limiter.

Fitting an after market EMS, exhaust, filter, bleed valve etc. will not increase the likelyhood of this happening

It's a Subaru, get over it</B>



Cheers

Ian

bob

It seems most Subaru garages have cars lined up for engine work due to the dreaded No 3 big end. PE have looked at 15 big end failures in the last year.
It was not long back that PE took all the blame for this with there tuning products. Yet we see more and more of it every day. Can’t help but think PE where wrongly blamed for a fault which is even more widespread today than ever.
I had the first MY98 car remapped by PE over two years ago.The car has done over 40,000 mile of hard driving and is still going well and has had no problems.
I hear Ian Gray’s car has done about the same mileage, and like Jan-egbert car is still going well, like many others. There were a few failures but there seems to be even more now without the remap from PE. So are we still saying the Phase 1 remap blows No 3 Big End?

RON

What brought that on at this ungodly hour Bob?
Ron

WREXY

Is this a problem with the MY98's or is it also the MY99 - MY00's and well I guess it's still a bit early for the MY01's?

WREXY.

bob

Hi Ron
Still up this time of night. I get emails for Impreza owners all the time asking me about the Phase 1 remap and what I think of it. I have just finished writing to another Phase 1 want to have.
Well you saw old blue Ron and you know how well it went.
I just cannot think how far along PE would be now with other remaps maybe Phase 2.

ssubaru

I have had 3 engine failures on my96 these cars are quick but the engines are **** comments please

bob

Wrexy/
Seems to be a problem for all Impreza. The MY01 has had ecu work acording to Pete Croney to try to stop this problem.

robski

Im really interested in seeing this comment backed up :

"Standard Subaru Impreza Turbo engine is prone to throw No.3 bearing (and related parts) for no good reason, at any time. To make this more likely to happen, drive the car flat out, in top gear for an extended period (more than 1 second). To be really certain, have it bouncing off the rev. limiter.

Fitting an after market EMS, exhaust, filter, bleed valve etc. will not increase the likelyhood of this happening"

whenever you deviate from the figures that a manufacturer produces you are going to be increasing a risk of something breaking unless you mitigate this at the same time.

It seems sooo easy for extra power to be squeezed out of an impreza, so why didnt subaru do it. Why is the UK spec lower power than the WRX? They have decided to make it that way, and that may be for a good reason.

Im also interested in how it can be stated 100% that the no 3 bearing which MAY suffer from heat related problems would not be affected by for example causing extra heat by running too lean, due to too many breathing mods and a standard ECU.

If it was sooo simple why do some companys now recommend an extra oil cooler? Im still worried in my mind that if you take this too far to the other extreme you may actually reduce the oil flow properties (in some circumstances) by making it too cool.

I remember when some leading tuners said you absolutely had to change the fuel pump on an escort cossie before anything else as the standard one was at its absolute limit. That seems to have changed now, why? Im sure its mainly down to better knowledge.

robski

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ok, get me 2p's worth in here
First, i drive an MY00 turbo (cheap euro import ) so let you all know where i stand.
The MY98 were known to have a fault with no3 bearing, it was very common for them to go, i even think PTMW had his go but then again he does drive his car quite hard
Some people put it down as a risk, for me and my little MY00 its one im willing to take, the hesitation, surging, clutch judder.... yup these cars do suffer from it, except mine, for some unknown reason mine doesnt suffer from hesitation or surging, a little clutch judder thou but its not there all the time and it doesnt make the car undrivable
But what does get me is people say its the fault of the oil, well change it!! put something in there thats better for your engine, same with the fuel!! use fully synth oil that likes the heat and dissapates it better, use a fuel that the car runs smoother on (sul!!)
I dont push my car for the first 4-5 miles, i keep her out of the turbo where possible, even after that ill try to keep below 3k for another few miles before opening her up, i have a turbo timer fitted to run her down when ive finished playing but what i get back is a car that drives better than some normally asperated ones! shes very smooth and i enjoy that but i do look after her (pampered is more like it )
I also dont see the need to just jump in and drive off (wait 30 secs or so to let the oil get round the engine) as it gives me time to put the radio facia in and fasten my seat belt (and some other things too!)
Just remember that a car is like a woman, warm her up, have loads of fun then run down nicely and if you do that you shouldnt have any complaints! (i havnt )
One bit for Robski thou, i think the low bhp for european cars is due to emissions i dont know why they havnt invented a cat thats more efficient than the ones on there just now!!!

Tony

Adam M

Bob,

There are several things I can say to everyone of your points, but ultimately you have your beliefs and I have mine. Neither of us would agin anything by convincing each other of our arguments and as you say we dont want to cause simon a problem so I will drop it.

Some issues need to be raised so taht oters learn from mistakes. I think it is best to present people with the facts and let them make their own assumptions based on that.

With regard to no.3 bearing, I made the mistake of believing that the proximity of the turbo could influence the temperature of that cylinder, but it has been pointed out to me that water jacketing and flow rate of oil rule this out entirely.

Oil supply? I wonder if the wrc teams have the same oil supply problems. I thought that the rules meant they had to use a standard block, which I presume has standard oil pathways etc. hether or not this can gives us an indication of a design fault I dont know. wrc engines arent run for that long, but when they are it is under extremely high stress.

I have fitted gauges for the purpose of keeping a close eye on the oil temp and pressure, and am placing my oil temp sender in number three gallery, for extra precaution.

Fuel supply si an interesting one. Is it possible to find out the mod done to fuel rail of the wrc car, and insodoing figure out why? If leaning out of number three is an issue, it would cause det which could easily lead to number three failure. Would the local heat increase affect the temperature of the oil specifically for the same reasons mentioned previously?

Oil to the big ends has to flow along the crank, and is continuously circulated, so surely a local temp rise through conduction is unlikely. If this is ruled out, then the spate of no.3 failures would also have signs of det on the pistons!

With this in mind, would it be possible to use say a motec to richen up that one cylinder just for safety, and can an egt probe be inserted into the header running diectly to no.3 exhaust port?

If these are possibilities then I will certainly consider them. I am sure fixng the problem would be easy once we know what it is.

one final thing, why has there been no return of info from japan or austrlia on this? surely this is the type of info that is paramount to a tuning industry?

bob

Robski/
This is the only common thing I have found with Impreza’s. They have been on max revs just before the bang. Obviously not all of them have been reported as going bang like this, but quite a number.
Do you think oil coolers will cool the oil too much? I was thinking of having one fitted, perhaps I should wait a bit until a bit of R&D has been done with oil coolers and the Impreza. Funny the last thread that PE wrote about was oil cooler they were suggesting an oil cooler could be beneficial. Sorry to say PE just got slagged and accused of ripping off the list by trying to sale their products here. I would have thought an oil cooler would only be a good thing to have, especially for those who go on the track.

robski

bob,

I agree on the oil cooler in most circumstances, but if its efficient, then by definition its going to take your oil longer to reach operating temp, which with a lot of people could be a bad thing!. If its very good then maybe it could potentially cause your engine to run at a lower temp than would be ideal. Just thoughts, no concrete proof, but then I dont see any concrete proof TO have an extra oil cooling either!

There are sooo many things that it could be, fuel rail (I remember mentioning this a long time ago as I had it happen on a previous car), something heat related near no3, oil flow problems, a material defficiency (god this has never happened before has it!), so many things it could be, or it could be a combination which would make it worse still!

Like Adam says, some parameters need to be found, if someone can modify a block to test oil temps, egt ..... for every cylinder etc without affecting anything (i.e. hampering any flow rates etc) then thats what really needs to be done IMHO.

What I dont see is anyone really attempting to do this. But why would they, its an expensive undertaking, and if there really was major problems surely subaru would be doing it to avoid the cost of claims.

Still Im sure one day we will all know the main factors that cause no3 to be seen to be the weak link of impreza engines (thats if you can forget the chocolate rods etc, there that should make the cossie boys happy)

robski

carlos_hiraoka

Bob, Robski .....

I don't know if you have read my previous post, but I'll try to go into further detail now. Here in South America WRX's have won the last 4 years the South American FIA rally championships. It is well known that there weakest part has always been the gearbox (but know they have allowed the use of dog gears and there are no more problems in that area). The WRX Grp. N engine have always been regarded as reliable. Yes I know that this engines only use race fuel and are dyno tested, but since rally teams over here don't have enough money, they use the same engine for the whole year .....
95% of the rally WRX's are made by a guy in Argetina named Fabian Barattero, he represents STi in south america not only selling parts but also developing new parts, and one thing that all of his Grp. N cars have is a modified fuel rail (only the centre part which connects the opposite cylinders). An easy thing to do would be to take out the whole fuel rail assembly plus injectors and take them to measure the flow of each injector ..... you'll probably find out that the injector placed on cylinder 3 flows between 5 - 8% less than the rest of the injectors. When the fuel rail is modified, problem is gone !

And BTW, Grp. N cars don't use oil coolers, and still use sump guards .....

Carlos H.

Adam M

carlos,

do you think this man would be willing to send his modified fuel rails over here?

Do you have a website or email address for him?

bob

So Carlos you have saved me the price of an oil cooler, thank you. Now if the fuel rail improvements can be proved, Which must be fairly easy. Who will be the first company to supply them?

carlos_hiraoka

Adam, the website for Barattero is

WREXY

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bob:
<B>Wrexy/
Seems to be a problem for all Impreza. The MY01 has had ecu work acording to Pete Croney to try to stop this problem.[/quote]

Thanks for the info Bob.

WREXY.

carlos_hiraoka

Guys, if you need any help with Spanish let me know, that is my native languange.

Hasta luego .....

Carlos H.

bob

Speak Spanish, can't even get the link to work.