Nice results from a ickle TD04 :)
26 September 2003, 11:47 AM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Graph here.
Not quite the 300/300 I was hoping to achieve, but this was after quite a few runs / final tweaks and so there was a bit of heat soak. I did see an earlier graph the was about 294/293!! As you would expect, I am particularly happy with the torque figure, the headers have really paid off even on the TD04, and I am pulling a good 15-20lb/ft more than people I know with decat-only and tek3 remaps.
However, I have never been one for graphs, and on the road it is explosive, and makes the standard car appear, well, just damned slow! It revs so hard in 2nd and 3rd I've accidentally hit the limiter a couple of times
5th now feels better than 4th felt in the standard car, and above 100 the speedo keeps climbing at a linear rate!!!!
The boost is behaving impeccably, firmly nailed to 1.3 bar.
Fuel pressure is up to 3.5bar over atmos.
IDCs are 96 (peaking at 100 on the road)
It's still a very safe, rich map. Could easily have had it over 300 by leaning it further, but with bigger turbo an injectors planned, no real point.
Full Spec is:
Standard turbo / injectors
TSL panel filter
OBX equal headers and flexi uppipe
APS TMIC
TSL Grp A open neck d/pipe
TSL Grp N centre and rear
Uprated fuel pump
Fuel Pressure regular @ 3.5bar
Custom map
Finally, hats off to power engineering. They took my complaints very seriously, made no excuses (unlike certain companies I could mention) and dealt with it impeccably.
[Edited by Edcase - 9/26/2003 12:09:55 PM]
Not quite the 300/300 I was hoping to achieve, but this was after quite a few runs / final tweaks and so there was a bit of heat soak. I did see an earlier graph the was about 294/293!! As you would expect, I am particularly happy with the torque figure, the headers have really paid off even on the TD04, and I am pulling a good 15-20lb/ft more than people I know with decat-only and tek3 remaps.
However, I have never been one for graphs, and on the road it is explosive, and makes the standard car appear, well, just damned slow! It revs so hard in 2nd and 3rd I've accidentally hit the limiter a couple of times
5th now feels better than 4th felt in the standard car, and above 100 the speedo keeps climbing at a linear rate!!!!
The boost is behaving impeccably, firmly nailed to 1.3 bar.
Fuel pressure is up to 3.5bar over atmos.
IDCs are 96 (peaking at 100 on the road)
It's still a very safe, rich map. Could easily have had it over 300 by leaning it further, but with bigger turbo an injectors planned, no real point.
Full Spec is:
Standard turbo / injectors
TSL panel filter
OBX equal headers and flexi uppipe
APS TMIC
TSL Grp A open neck d/pipe
TSL Grp N centre and rear
Uprated fuel pump
Fuel Pressure regular @ 3.5bar
Custom map
Finally, hats off to power engineering. They took my complaints very seriously, made no excuses (unlike certain companies I could mention) and dealt with it impeccably.
[Edited by Edcase - 9/26/2003 12:09:55 PM]
26 September 2003, 12:08 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hehe. I am not planning on going any higher than 350 tho. I am not interested in santa pod etc. my passion is for track days and b-roads, so I want driveability and reliability.
Somebody please remind me i said that later....
Somebody please remind me i said that later....
26 September 2003, 12:35 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I wish I hadn't gone the FMIC route etc 
I had similar results at PE with a hybrid TD04 and no headers/original TMIC, but had to run 19 PSI dropping to 17 to get it.
I had similar results at PE with a hybrid TD04 and no headers/original TMIC, but had to run 19 PSI dropping to 17 to get it.
Trending Topics
I thought front mounts were the only realistic way to get the big power that you have???
26 September 2003, 04:10 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
have to agree with jb to a degree on this one.
fmic's are good for track work and giving you more power over 5000rpm for rolling road days and high speed straight-line stuff but that 's about it imo.
in the last month I have drove my car,td05 fmic.....with about 320bhp(350bhp before clutch started slipping) , another car with td05 and big tmic, probably about 300bhp and another car with a VF23 and top mount ,probably about 275bhp because of injectors.
over 5k my car was stronger but the two other cars felt better until then and either of them would have been better for a back road blast than mine until a long 130mph straight came into play. where I had to stir the box a bit , their cars just went.
for road use I think things like front mounts and headers are over kill. sure they will give you heaps more power but it does not mean the car will be that much faster. I think andyf gained about 80bhp from last years spec but only gained about .1 of a sec on the 1/4,although he did run off to 170something mph flat out , which is when the more power and cooler charge over 5k come into play.
[Edited by T-uk - 9/26/2003 4:13:30 PM]
fmic's are good for track work and giving you more power over 5000rpm for rolling road days and high speed straight-line stuff but that 's about it imo.
in the last month I have drove my car,td05 fmic.....with about 320bhp(350bhp before clutch started slipping) , another car with td05 and big tmic, probably about 300bhp and another car with a VF23 and top mount ,probably about 275bhp because of injectors.
over 5k my car was stronger but the two other cars felt better until then and either of them would have been better for a back road blast than mine until a long 130mph straight came into play. where I had to stir the box a bit , their cars just went.
for road use I think things like front mounts and headers are over kill. sure they will give you heaps more power but it does not mean the car will be that much faster. I think andyf gained about 80bhp from last years spec but only gained about .1 of a sec on the 1/4,although he did run off to 170something mph flat out , which is when the more power and cooler charge over 5k come into play.
[Edited by T-uk - 9/26/2003 4:13:30 PM]
26 September 2003, 04:14 PM
#13
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree RE: FMIC, but disagree headers are overkill. I'm seeing over 20lb/ft more than people with full decat and remap, and there was plenty more in reserve. Its immensely driveable on the road.
My fuel economy is shot to **** cos I cant help but nail it every time there is anything resembling a straight to hear those babies howl!!!!!
It sounds like a bloody racecar!!!
My fuel economy is shot to **** cos I cant help but nail it every time there is anything resembling a straight to hear those babies howl!!!!!
It sounds like a bloody racecar!!!
26 September 2003, 04:40 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
20lb/ft peak but how much better is the torque curve?,even if a r/r was accurate enough for this sort of stuff.
headers allowed me to run lower boost , to get similar results as I would have got with standard headers with replacement up-pipe , at higher boost. this is good but without a doubt lag is increased and torque is lost low down. this is comparing identical mods bar the headers(standard v gruppe-s).
my first set of headers(john banks phase 1 gruppe-s big bore set) really killed my second gear but I was pulling all the way to the limiter. I now run gruppe-s phase 2 with the smaller bore and my second gear is much stronger low down and lag between gear changes has improved but is still not the same as ported headers and replacement up-pipe.
do not get me wrong , I would not change back. as soon as I go near a track or have a brain oot thrash
,anywhere I can keep her singing , I know I have done the right thing but for road use enjoyment, the front mount and headers loose out in the tight stuff.epecially when you cannot stay on the boil due to blind bends,road surface other cars etc.
egt's also seem to play a bigger part with headers in road use.
[Edited by T-uk - 9/26/2003 4:52:13 PM]
headers allowed me to run lower boost , to get similar results as I would have got with standard headers with replacement up-pipe , at higher boost. this is good but without a doubt lag is increased and torque is lost low down. this is comparing identical mods bar the headers(standard v gruppe-s).
my first set of headers(john banks phase 1 gruppe-s big bore set) really killed my second gear but I was pulling all the way to the limiter. I now run gruppe-s phase 2 with the smaller bore and my second gear is much stronger low down and lag between gear changes has improved but is still not the same as ported headers and replacement up-pipe.
do not get me wrong , I would not change back. as soon as I go near a track or have a brain oot thrash
,anywhere I can keep her singing , I know I have done the right thing but for road use enjoyment, the front mount and headers loose out in the tight stuff.epecially when you cannot stay on the boil due to blind bends,road surface other cars etc.egt's also seem to play a bigger part with headers in road use.
[Edited by T-uk - 9/26/2003 4:52:13 PM]
26 September 2003, 04:56 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Bradford
Posts: 13,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can sort of see where you are coming from john/t-uk. I've sort of been feeling the same thing since I had my car put back to standard - whilst there are things that really annoy me about it (lag, slower, cr@p boost control) its actually a far nicer car to drive. I guess car manufacturer's spend £Millions on R&D for a reason 
If you want a car that does 11s 1/4 buy one that does it out the box
This thread has made for interesting reading. I'd always had pipe dreams of an STI 6 with massive turbo, fmic, all the gubbins and something along the lines of 400+bhp....maybe not!
If you want a car that does 11s 1/4 buy one that does it out the box This thread has made for interesting reading. I'd always had pipe dreams of an STI 6 with massive turbo, fmic, all the gubbins and something along the lines of 400+bhp....maybe not!
26 September 2003, 05:12 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A silly question, I know, but is the car with headers quieter than
one without ? At idle and low revs, I mean.
I've promised my wife I'd either park 100m down the road to stop waking the kids, or fit something other than the original backbox to make it quieter. If fitting something gives an additional 20lb/ft then I know I won't be getting more exercise every day
one without ? At idle and low revs, I mean.
I've promised my wife I'd either park 100m down the road to stop waking the kids, or fit something other than the original backbox to make it quieter. If fitting something gives an additional 20lb/ft then I know I won't be getting more exercise every day
26 September 2003, 05:19 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stanmo, yes it is much quieter around town, but when you open her up it sounds like a Hayabusa!!!
T-UK, take a look at my graph at the start of the thread. Certainly no more noticeable lag than I had before. Mine are true equal length so may make a slight difference.
T-UK, take a look at my graph at the start of the thread. Certainly no more noticeable lag than I had before. Mine are true equal length so may make a slight difference.
26 September 2003, 05:27 PM
#18
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK to be fair looking at the graph again it is making peak torque later than usual, but I honestly have not noticed it on the road.
26 September 2003, 05:37 PM
#19
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sunny Swindon
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Equal length headers certainly seem to make it quieter inside the car - at just about any speed, etc. None of the boom that you can get, especially with a performance exhaust. However, from the outside it is a different story...
Iain Lit (in his Spec C) and I recently had some fun on the M5, each passing each other relatively quickly, he concurs that my car (STi8 with equal length headers and Milltek exhaust) sounds just like his (with standard equal length headers and Milltek exhaust) - and his sounded like a bleedin jet fighter when it came past me....
A very strange sound, certainly not unpleasant, and certainly loud - and very cool. A bit like a massive, road-going blow-torch!
Why on earth equal length headers aren't factory fits I'll never know - as it completely transforms the car, as Edcase says.
Awesome.......
Iain Lit (in his Spec C) and I recently had some fun on the M5, each passing each other relatively quickly, he concurs that my car (STi8 with equal length headers and Milltek exhaust) sounds just like his (with standard equal length headers and Milltek exhaust) - and his sounded like a bleedin jet fighter when it came past me....
A very strange sound, certainly not unpleasant, and certainly loud - and very cool. A bit like a massive, road-going blow-torch!
Why on earth equal length headers aren't factory fits I'll never know - as it completely transforms the car, as Edcase says.
Awesome.......
26 September 2003, 05:55 PM
#22
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got a VF35 from my STi8 (done 1500miles only) that'll just do you(350 ish HP @ 1.5 bar) injectors will be available as well (when my others arrive).
Then you'll be on the slippery slope! lol
Then you'll be on the slippery slope! lol
26 September 2003, 06:39 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it is more in second gear pulling out of small round-a-bouts and hair-pin type bends that I have found the loss most. I actually think the big bore headers made my second gear low down spool loss, larger, than the fitting of the fmic.I am comparing identical mods bar the headers on the same bit of road here. 3rd, 4th and 5th do not seem as noticeable, you do not get to low revs with them as you can down shift to hide it. I have not tried the six speed box but perhaps the ratios suit it better than the 5speed UK. the lag between gearshift is okay now, with the smaller bore pipe but everything is a compromise and for road only use, in the 260-330bhp bracket you will not convince me 
.your car will be faster but you will be working harder to prove it until you hit a straight and the top end pull is highlighted.
for me,road use grin factor, is all about response in the twisties, more than power pulling me along the straights that bit faster.
after saying all this though, the car does feel much happier with the headers
,apart from running lower boost to get high boost with standard header results, it feels much less restricted low down when off boost, it is only when the turbo starts to spool that things head south for me. the fmic keeps the engine happier at higher boost especially on hot days and track days, so it is all a vicious circle.
saxo,
at 400ish bhp the loss I have is nothing to the reward higher up. I was just really meaning the 260-300bhp tmic v 300-330bhp fmic/header cars.
with 400bhp even big bikes get shocked on the straights, eh banks
.your car will be faster but you will be working harder to prove it until you hit a straight and the top end pull is highlighted.for me,road use grin factor, is all about response in the twisties, more than power pulling me along the straights that bit faster.
after saying all this though, the car does feel much happier with the headers
,apart from running lower boost to get high boost with standard header results, it feels much less restricted low down when off boost, it is only when the turbo starts to spool that things head south for me. the fmic keeps the engine happier at higher boost especially on hot days and track days, so it is all a vicious circle.saxo,
at 400ish bhp the loss I have is nothing to the reward higher up. I was just really meaning the 260-300bhp tmic v 300-330bhp fmic/header cars.
with 400bhp even big bikes get shocked on the straights, eh banks
26 September 2003, 06:44 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Interesting that most factory turbocharged cars do not go much above 150 BHP/litre, and a lot are far lower.
That is because they end up laggy and unreliable IMHO.
That is because they end up laggy and unreliable IMHO.
26 September 2003, 07:03 PM
#30
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Throwing myself down a mountain at every opportunity...
Posts: 6,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve - in terms of figures, Sti8 PPP is quoted around 300 / 300 but as owners putting their cars on the rollers have found they tend to be a bit less, about the same as mine currently (some have been slightly lower).
On the road, I think it probably comes down to whether you prefer 5 or 6 speed box. Personally I prefer 5, and it feels a lot faster and less frantic than the sti8 ppp I've been in as the torque pulls you through the slighter longer ratios.
In terms of sound, its a TOTALLY different kettle of fish. I miss the burble on idle, but wouldn't swap the sound on WOT!!! Its insane.
On the road, I think it probably comes down to whether you prefer 5 or 6 speed box. Personally I prefer 5, and it feels a lot faster and less frantic than the sti8 ppp I've been in as the torque pulls you through the slighter longer ratios.
In terms of sound, its a TOTALLY different kettle of fish. I miss the burble on idle, but wouldn't swap the sound on WOT!!! Its insane.