Turbo, headers and limit of EJ20 Engine??
22 February 2003, 11:13 PM
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I'm bored I have to admit it
I've seen the Scoob world be passed by and totally eclipsed by the Evo boys and the likes of Norris Designs
I'm currently looking to increase the power of the Scoob from its rather paltry 380 ish bhp
Ok its paltry because its running a fairly small turbo
I want to know what peoples thoughts are on turbo choice, headers, cams and other work required to achieve lets say over 500bhp...
I dont really care what it costs, but I want to retain a 2 litre engine for the time being just for novelty's sake
I dont want to do any waiting... I'm now totally fed up.. there seems to be too much unchartered water over here.. who has the information out there to give a no gambles increase? - anyone? or would my best option be to simply sell up and move on.. I seem to have waited now over 2 years to be in a position where I may get around say 450bhp -500bhp... so what....what if I want 550bhp - is this possible - or am I simply too ignorant to understand the workings of the humble Sccoby Engine
This post is in no way intended to get anyones back up.. and I'm very happy with the work that has been done to my car to date....... perhaps though when I went from the Cossie I chose the wrong car and should have taken the Evo option instead?
I've seen the Scoob world be passed by and totally eclipsed by the Evo boys and the likes of Norris Designs
I'm currently looking to increase the power of the Scoob from its rather paltry 380 ish bhp
Ok its paltry because its running a fairly small turbo
I want to know what peoples thoughts are on turbo choice, headers, cams and other work required to achieve lets say over 500bhp...
I dont really care what it costs, but I want to retain a 2 litre engine for the time being just for novelty's sake
I dont want to do any waiting... I'm now totally fed up.. there seems to be too much unchartered water over here.. who has the information out there to give a no gambles increase? - anyone? or would my best option be to simply sell up and move on.. I seem to have waited now over 2 years to be in a position where I may get around say 450bhp -500bhp... so what....what if I want 550bhp - is this possible - or am I simply too ignorant to understand the workings of the humble Sccoby Engine
This post is in no way intended to get anyones back up.. and I'm very happy with the work that has been done to my car to date....... perhaps though when I went from the Cossie I chose the wrong car and should have taken the Evo option instead?
22 February 2003, 11:24 PM
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Steve,are'nt the Evo cars you are talking about running seriously modified engines? Has'nt Bob proved that 460 BHP is feasible from a 2litre albeit with uprated internals.There are STi7s with 'just' exhaust/fmic/turbo running about 380 BHP at 1.1 bar boost.
22 February 2003, 11:34 PM
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Deep Singh
I have the uprated internals....
As far as the 380 from 1.1 bar goes.. fantasy land numbers
I know about the 460bhp and can be there if I chose to spend a few more grand... I'm asking about the theoretical limits and whose been there
Any good Aussie/USA/Canadian/others out there
Oh... and I want the car to be driveable
Seriously modded..... hmmm.... cash waiting.........
I have the uprated internals....
As far as the 380 from 1.1 bar goes.. fantasy land numbers
I know about the 460bhp and can be there if I chose to spend a few more grand... I'm asking about the theoretical limits and whose been there
Any good Aussie/USA/Canadian/others out there
Oh... and I want the car to be driveable
Seriously modded..... hmmm.... cash waiting.........
23 February 2003, 12:02 AM
#4
Most of the high powered EVO lot are running stroker engines now, mainly I think so that the larger turbos don't run real laggy.
I suspect the norris evo is running AT LEAST 2.2, possible 2.4 but I wouldn't like to say.
Choices have opened right up when it comes to engines, more and more manufacturers of internals are doing subaru spec stuff as standard. Bigger turbos will be the next big thing I think. Bigger than a VF can ever be, things like Garrets with IHI P20 exhaust housings (was done over a year ago by Turbo Specialities), TD06 with TD05 or IHI P20 housing, Garret GT25 etc with uppipe and flange adaptors (like the HKS kits), Garret GT25/30/35 with new up-pipe and downpipe.
There are at least 4 ways to strengthen/replace the block with something stronger.
But really it boils down to running a shedload of boost on a turbo that flows feckloads of air.
Paul
I suspect the norris evo is running AT LEAST 2.2, possible 2.4 but I wouldn't like to say.
Choices have opened right up when it comes to engines, more and more manufacturers of internals are doing subaru spec stuff as standard. Bigger turbos will be the next big thing I think. Bigger than a VF can ever be, things like Garrets with IHI P20 exhaust housings (was done over a year ago by Turbo Specialities), TD06 with TD05 or IHI P20 housing, Garret GT25 etc with uppipe and flange adaptors (like the HKS kits), Garret GT25/30/35 with new up-pipe and downpipe.
There are at least 4 ways to strengthen/replace the block with something stronger.
But really it boils down to running a shedload of boost on a turbo that flows feckloads of air.
Paul
23 February 2003, 09:53 AM
#5
Steve,
I would have thought 450 is acheivable if your prepared to run say 2.1 bar
on a big turbo.
I know Mark has made Garret/VF hybrids, and straight Garret kits, with all the bits you would need to fit it.
I also know that Andy F has been dabbling in the TD05/6 hybrids, but I've not seen one of those up close and personal.
Pat used to have a TD06 based HKS kit on his car that was capable of doing what you want...it has moved on to another car now...and it's new owner can comment on that
If you do change the headers and turbo, I think you should also look at getting a hard pipe kit made for your intercooler, those APS hoses won't like 2.1 bar much!
I would have thought 450 is acheivable if your prepared to run say 2.1 bar
on a big turbo.I know Mark has made Garret/VF hybrids, and straight Garret kits, with all the bits you would need to fit it.
I also know that Andy F has been dabbling in the TD05/6 hybrids, but I've not seen one of those up close and personal.
Pat used to have a TD06 based HKS kit on his car that was capable of doing what you want...it has moved on to another car now...and it's new owner can comment on that
If you do change the headers and turbo, I think you should also look at getting a hard pipe kit made for your intercooler, those APS hoses won't like 2.1 bar much!
23 February 2003, 10:20 AM
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APS claim they withstand 29 PSI, they also claim a 1 PSI pressure drop across the whole system at 25 PSI at 7000 RPM. Has Bob changed his APS hoses?
Steve, it does seem like there is no way to make big power on a 2.0 without lots of boost as Paul is saying. In my Projects thread there is a TD06 20G map up and it looks like it will flow REALLY well at low boost, but the 2.5 litre will not make full use of it in the 1.3 bar range, and it would need more boost even to get 450 BHP. But then the compressor map runs out. Some of the maps seem to go to much higher pressure ratios and speeds, it is whether we are comparing like with like and the top line is a choke limit or just where they decided to stop testing the turbo? (I don't know the answer just throwing in the thought).
[Edited by john banks - 2/23/2003 10:26:17 AM]
Steve, it does seem like there is no way to make big power on a 2.0 without lots of boost as Paul is saying. In my Projects thread there is a TD06 20G map up and it looks like it will flow REALLY well at low boost, but the 2.5 litre will not make full use of it in the 1.3 bar range, and it would need more boost even to get 450 BHP. But then the compressor map runs out. Some of the maps seem to go to much higher pressure ratios and speeds, it is whether we are comparing like with like and the top line is a choke limit or just where they decided to stop testing the turbo? (I don't know the answer just throwing in the thought).
[Edited by john banks - 2/23/2003 10:26:17 AM]
23 February 2003, 10:39 AM
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Steve,
I'm not certain if ANY 2lt 500BHP + car will make a reliable day to day car, if driven to their limits on a regular basis.
From what I can gather, after speaking to several very experienced engine bulders, whilst Cossie engines may hold together, they suffer from very much reduced life of the bearings, rings, and bores. It seems that it's not uncommon to have to re-build them every 5000 miles or so.
I have no doubts that 500BHP + is achievable from a 2lt Subaru engine, but given that it has very small bearings, compared to the Cosworth, I wouldn't expect it to give long term reliability, if it's going to be used to it's full potential, on a daily basis.
Apart from a turbo, and headers, the only way you're going to achieve your target, is to either run much higher boost (like the Cossie's) or design your engine to hit peak power at a higher RPM.
I don't think I'd be looking at the HKS headers for the type of power you want, not unless you're prepared to do some mod's to them, but I'm sure Bob can sort you out with a turbo.
I suspect that your 740cc injectors are going to be a little marginal, unless you increase the fuel pressure, or get some 850's.
Mark.
I'm not certain if ANY 2lt 500BHP + car will make a reliable day to day car, if driven to their limits on a regular basis.
From what I can gather, after speaking to several very experienced engine bulders, whilst Cossie engines may hold together, they suffer from very much reduced life of the bearings, rings, and bores. It seems that it's not uncommon to have to re-build them every 5000 miles or so.
I have no doubts that 500BHP + is achievable from a 2lt Subaru engine, but given that it has very small bearings, compared to the Cosworth, I wouldn't expect it to give long term reliability, if it's going to be used to it's full potential, on a daily basis.
Apart from a turbo, and headers, the only way you're going to achieve your target, is to either run much higher boost (like the Cossie's) or design your engine to hit peak power at a higher RPM.
I don't think I'd be looking at the HKS headers for the type of power you want, not unless you're prepared to do some mod's to them, but I'm sure Bob can sort you out with a turbo.
I suspect that your 740cc injectors are going to be a little marginal, unless you increase the fuel pressure, or get some 850's.
Mark.
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24 February 2003, 12:08 PM
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Mark et al
Thanks..I was a tad drunk and a tad upset... no change there then!
I Hadnt realised there was a boost limit on the APS pipes...something I may have to look at.. that said I would'nt want to be running say 2 bar of boost all the way over 7000 rpm anyway
As far as further mods go- a bigger turbo and headers are on the cards, as are cams.
The 740cc injectors should be ok with higher pressure on the regulator.. but we'll see - I dont really want to be running the injector duties in the upper 90's!
I was looking at the Garrett GT30.. but this requires a lot of work..so will look at something much more simple...
The car has to be driveable and realiable for a lot of miles.. I should get 450-475bhp comfortably.
The 2.1 bar was peak boost and was set at 1.8 bar held on Bobs car...!
Thanks..I was a tad drunk and a tad upset... no change there then!
I Hadnt realised there was a boost limit on the APS pipes...something I may have to look at.. that said I would'nt want to be running say 2 bar of boost all the way over 7000 rpm anyway
As far as further mods go- a bigger turbo and headers are on the cards, as are cams.
The 740cc injectors should be ok with higher pressure on the regulator.. but we'll see - I dont really want to be running the injector duties in the upper 90's!
I was looking at the Garrett GT30.. but this requires a lot of work..so will look at something much more simple...
The car has to be driveable and realiable for a lot of miles.. I should get 450-475bhp comfortably.
The 2.1 bar was peak boost and was set at 1.8 bar held on Bobs car...!
24 February 2003, 01:16 PM
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Pavlo
No.... I'm not into this... but fancy a few track outings in a few months time
I want to retain gearbox, driveshafts, diffs, clutch... etc
Although I can understand why you would think that.. the gt30 is not exactly a small turbo!!...but a little nitrous could help spool up... if I'm feeling suicidal...
I've been to the Proper drag racers out in the States.. compared to this Santa Pod is a little tame...
No.... I'm not into this... but fancy a few track outings in a few months time
I want to retain gearbox, driveshafts, diffs, clutch... etc
Although I can understand why you would think that.. the gt30 is not exactly a small turbo!!...but a little nitrous could help spool up... if I'm feeling suicidal...
I've been to the Proper drag racers out in the States.. compared to this Santa Pod is a little tame...
24 February 2003, 01:22 PM
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Pavlo
on the subject of cams.. are there any off the shelf.. (silly comment?) that are available??
Could sort out when my other engine work is erm.. being done..
Rgds
Steve
on the subject of cams.. are there any off the shelf.. (silly comment?) that are available??
Could sort out when my other engine work is erm.. being done..
Rgds
Steve
24 February 2003, 01:40 PM
#12
Hi Steve,
If you have an APS with the original silicon hoses then they are now supplying metal with their MY02 D/R 500 kits. I have no idea whether they are interchangeable but it may be worth asking. The red ones seen on their website are covered in a crinkle finish paint which is close to the STi inlet manifold colour. It may be worth a call to G-Force Motorsport.
Good luck with your project.
regards,
Callum
If you have an APS with the original silicon hoses then they are now supplying metal with their MY02 D/R 500 kits. I have no idea whether they are interchangeable but it may be worth asking. The red ones seen on their website are covered in a crinkle finish paint which is close to the STi inlet manifold colour. It may be worth a call to G-Force Motorsport.
Good luck with your project.
regards,
Callum
24 February 2003, 02:23 PM
#14
Christian's turbo install is good. The uppipe and downpipe would cost around £300 as H&S are set up to do them. Then you could sell your existing ones for nearly as much.
You could have a variant of Christians turbo with smaller housings both sides, but still bigger than the IHI offerings. Mark can sort you out on that or you can get a Garrett turbo to order from your preffered source.
Cams can be reprofiled, and need springs etc to cope with additional lift, I will email you with a source for them.
Paul
You could have a variant of Christians turbo with smaller housings both sides, but still bigger than the IHI offerings. Mark can sort you out on that or you can get a Garrett turbo to order from your preffered source.
Cams can be reprofiled, and need springs etc to cope with additional lift, I will email you with a source for them.
Paul
24 February 2003, 02:32 PM
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Steve,
HKS have camshafts available for the Scoob. 256's and 264's from memory and are £295+vat a pair IIRC. They've also just developed a 2.2L stroker kit which was at the Autosport show, doesn't include rods but has the crank and pistons + rings/pins etc!!
I'll get to the end of my project too one day
Rgds
Nito
HKS have camshafts available for the Scoob. 256's and 264's from memory and are £295+vat a pair IIRC. They've also just developed a 2.2L stroker kit which was at the Autosport show, doesn't include rods but has the crank and pistons + rings/pins etc!!
I'll get to the end of my project too one day
Rgds
Nito
24 February 2003, 03:06 PM
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Given I dont know anyone with uprated Cams on the 2 litre that appear to have given any power gains at all... what sort of power gains should I be expecting
Didnt Dave Harries try Cams.... Moray will know the answer..
Can someone explain how you actually get power gains from Cams..?... never really did understand what cams actually did!!... Yeah, I know, I know... total novice...
Didnt Dave Harries try Cams.... Moray will know the answer..
Can someone explain how you actually get power gains from Cams..?... never really did understand what cams actually did!!... Yeah, I know, I know... total novice...
24 February 2003, 03:28 PM
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Pavlo,
IIRC, Lateral Performance supplied Christians turbo setup. I think your post could easily be a little missleading in this respect, however, I am sure Lateral Performance could help clear this up.
Slooby,
IIRC, the TD05/06 Hybrid system you mentioned with respect to Pat was, in fact, originally a Greddy product. It's amusing to me that the TD05/06 hybrid in question was actually supplied to Pat over a year ago by the chap who has since founded Lateral Performance.
I believe that the current owner of the setup is very happy with it.
Moray
IIRC, Lateral Performance supplied Christians turbo setup. I think your post could easily be a little missleading in this respect, however, I am sure Lateral Performance could help clear this up.
Slooby,
IIRC, the TD05/06 Hybrid system you mentioned with respect to Pat was, in fact, originally a Greddy product. It's amusing to me that the TD05/06 hybrid in question was actually supplied to Pat over a year ago by the chap who has since founded Lateral Performance.
I believe that the current owner of the setup is very happy with it.
Moray
24 February 2003, 05:13 PM
#18
Some pictures of my turbo are here:
http://www.CICarScene.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14
I will try and take more pictures when I get my digital camera back. The turbo inlet pipe has slightly changed from when these pictures were taken (bit more cutting so it fits smoother around).
Moray is correct in saying that Lateral Performance supplied my turbo setup. When the turbo was positioned correctly, H&S then made the custom up-pipe and down-pipe.
[Edited by ChristianR - 2/24/2003 5:14:45 PM]
http://www.CICarScene.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14
I will try and take more pictures when I get my digital camera back. The turbo inlet pipe has slightly changed from when these pictures were taken (bit more cutting so it fits smoother around).
Moray is correct in saying that Lateral Performance supplied my turbo setup. When the turbo was positioned correctly, H&S then made the custom up-pipe and down-pipe.
[Edited by ChristianR - 2/24/2003 5:14:45 PM]
24 February 2003, 06:28 PM
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Steve
When buying cams/turbos/headers etc I suggest you ask to see some proof of bhp capability. ie a dyno or rolling road print of a power run. This will also let you decide whether the power curve is appropriate to your 'daily driver' expectations.
There are a lot of claims out there but very little verification. You want to be sure you get what you pay for
Andy
When buying cams/turbos/headers etc I suggest you ask to see some proof of bhp capability. ie a dyno or rolling road print of a power run. This will also let you decide whether the power curve is appropriate to your 'daily driver' expectations.
There are a lot of claims out there but very little verification. You want to be sure you get what you pay for
Andy
24 February 2003, 06:37 PM
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All I can say is that this must be one hell of a turbo to get 380bhp at 1.1 bar...... Probably hits the 1 bar mark at about 5500rpm....
If this is an RR figure I think the Next Northern RR day should be held there
One things for sure I can count out P Station, Power Engineering and Well Lane as the source!!... unless, its a Garrett beast...
If this is an RR figure I think the Next Northern RR day should be held there
One things for sure I can count out P Station, Power Engineering and Well Lane as the source!!... unless, its a Garrett beast...
24 February 2003, 09:09 PM
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ok you can stop taking the **** out of me now! I'm a little gullible I suppose.Not really that informed about what it takes to make a high power car.Its what I was told,I believed it.I w'ont go into the details of the car as I d'ont want to offend anyone.
24 February 2003, 09:42 PM
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It's interesting how some people post figures, and they are acceptable, whilst other people have their figures trashed, even though the same methods may have be used to measure said figures !!!
I'm also curious to know just what form of measure IS acceptable ?
Mark.
I'm also curious to know just what form of measure IS acceptable ?
Mark.
24 February 2003, 09:43 PM
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Deep,
don't worry - one of my colleagues at work told me in very serious tones about his bug eye - and that his mate had an STi 7 which was the fastest Scoob he had ever been in...
...so I asked him how he got the power...
...well - he got 350bhp by fitting the turbo off a P1...
...wow I said - a VF28 from a P1 and he got 350bhp...
Brown Trout
don't worry - one of my colleagues at work told me in very serious tones about his bug eye - and that his mate had an STi 7 which was the fastest Scoob he had ever been in...
...so I asked him how he got the power...
...well - he got 350bhp by fitting the turbo off a P1...
...wow I said - a VF28 from a P1 and he got 350bhp...
Brown Trout
25 February 2003, 12:49 PM
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Brown Trout
Dreamers...... given I cant get much over 380 with a bigger turbo... as others have said pub talk
I want a car that has the figure and scares me to death..(my own driving), not Bobs on the road..
Dreamers...... given I cant get much over 380 with a bigger turbo... as others have said pub talk
I want a car that has the figure and scares me to death..(my own driving), not Bobs on the road..