What Do You Pay For An MCSE?
06 February 2002, 09:30 PM
#4
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£20K? You have got to be having a bloody larf!!! That's chimp money as far as I.T is concerned... On the other hand, they could be chimps.....
Being one(Not a chimp, cheeky!), I would say that it all depends on how exactly they acheived it. Personally, I think that the cram-tastic boot camp way is a joke and shouldn't be allowed. Just my opinion. I know tons of blokes that I come into contact with weekly that have these qualifications and are complete and utter idiots, unfortunatly. If they actually had the skills to go with the piece of paper, my life would be much easier. I spent just over 2.5 years perfecting my skills, not by taking the easy options, but by building and breaking and working my **** off..... Accept no substitute!
Cheers,
Nick
Being one(Not a chimp, cheeky!), I would say that it all depends on how exactly they acheived it. Personally, I think that the cram-tastic boot camp way is a joke and shouldn't be allowed. Just my opinion. I know tons of blokes that I come into contact with weekly that have these qualifications and are complete and utter idiots, unfortunatly. If they actually had the skills to go with the piece of paper, my life would be much easier. I spent just over 2.5 years perfecting my skills, not by taking the easy options, but by building and breaking and working my **** off..... Accept no substitute!
Cheers,
Nick
06 February 2002, 09:56 PM
#5
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Look at it this way -- it's easier than an CCNA, and people with CCNAs can be numpties too (they're just MCSEs who happen to know the OSI 7-layer model... ).
Have you seen the depressed IT market at the moment? I saw a contract for network 1st/2nd line support going for 15 quid an hour a few months ago!
).Have you seen the depressed IT market at the moment? I saw a contract for network 1st/2nd line support going for 15 quid an hour a few months ago!
06 February 2002, 10:05 PM
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Quick search of jobserve for 'MCSE' and 'Permanent'.
Mobile Operations Analyst - London/City/MCSE/Support - up to 25k + benefits [only 25k and in London where rates are better]
MCSE Engineer - 20-23k [Birmingham]
Systems Administrator - Hosting - MCSE - 22k-28k + package [London City]
MCP Or MCSE Level Network Engineer - Up To 20k + car [East Sussex].
As I said, I wouldn't pay more than 20k unless there are other skills like Solaris, security, Cisco, etc.
Mobile Operations Analyst - London/City/MCSE/Support - up to 25k + benefits [only 25k and in London where rates are better]
MCSE Engineer - 20-23k [Birmingham]
Systems Administrator - Hosting - MCSE - 22k-28k + package [London City]
MCP Or MCSE Level Network Engineer - Up To 20k + car [East Sussex].
As I said, I wouldn't pay more than 20k unless there are other skills like Solaris, security, Cisco, etc.
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06 February 2002, 10:30 PM
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Puff
Agree as above. Its abit of paper that proves the applicant can read books and probably find the On button.
If its the first job and they already have MCSE find out how. Some guy who spends time with some old kit finding out how it works then fine. If hes just been to a series of courses and learnt it parrot fashion with no attempt to apply it then you going to have to teach him most things anyway.
imho - The experience *is* worth paying for.
Deano
Agree as above. Its abit of paper that proves the applicant can read books and probably find the On button.
If its the first job and they already have MCSE find out how. Some guy who spends time with some old kit finding out how it works then fine. If hes just been to a series of courses and learnt it parrot fashion with no attempt to apply it then you going to have to teach him most things anyway.
imho - The experience *is* worth paying for.
Deano
06 February 2002, 10:47 PM
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Only joking puff. I can't really tell you and I wouldn't rely on an agency to tell you I successfully got our latest techies for a lot less than an agency wanted for them!
I put an advert in a couple of local papers not mentioning money just stating what I was looking for - personality which to my mind was almost more important than technical abilities [you can teach tech ability but not personality ]. I got 120+ responses of which 40 where within budget and had personality.
If that is too expensive try your local colleges we are lucky we have a college that runs a two year hnd computer support course in which they do hands on MCSE and CCNA with 3 months work experience with the likes of us.
Good Luck
06 February 2002, 10:49 PM
#13
But then there is my boss - who on the one hand wants a system that never falls over (like this w/end just past 
) and/or is redundant & failsafe BUT won't pay for someone to look after it fulltime
Although I'm Sys Admin for our company, I'm also many other hats too - just don't ask how many. Therefore, it is not possible to fully look after the system as it should be done, because if its working, I'm dragged off into other areas.
I'm also unlikely to get the budget to implement what should be done to aquiese to his desires for a network that is always up, yet, as today, get a bollocking for allowing it to have a problem anyway
His solution? Bring in a m8 who as I found out on Sunday, freely admits to knowing B all about networks, hardware and MS or Novell NOS's
Hence the question, as I broached the subject of a f/time MS net person (@ £20k mark) & was told no. Just wondering whether you can get someone reasonable for that sort of money.
Slight rant - sorry.
) and/or is redundant & failsafe BUT won't pay for someone to look after it fulltime Although I'm Sys Admin for our company, I'm also many other hats too - just don't ask how many. Therefore, it is not possible to fully look after the system as it should be done, because if its working, I'm dragged off into other areas.
I'm also unlikely to get the budget to implement what should be done to aquiese to his desires for a network that is always up, yet, as today, get a bollocking for allowing it to have a problem anyway
His solution? Bring in a m8 who as I found out on Sunday, freely admits to knowing B all about networks, hardware and MS or Novell NOS's Hence the question, as I broached the subject of a f/time MS net person (@ £20k mark) & was told no. Just wondering whether you can get someone reasonable for that sort of money.
Slight rant - sorry.
06 February 2002, 11:04 PM
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As I said in Milton Keynes, having been in that sort of small company IT situation, I can sympathise. You could always open "Word" and finish the document you were gongto send me a year ago 
Deano
And your ICQ isnt on
Deano
And your ICQ isnt on
06 February 2002, 11:15 PM
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MCSE, NT4 or W2K, is only proof of the ability to read..
The only area worth looking for on a CV is the experience, for someone with only a MCSE and no IT experience I wouldn't pay more than £15K pa..
But you get what you pay for, when the **** hits the fan the only thing this person is going to be good for is dialing the number for MS Support..
cheerio
The only area worth looking for on a CV is the experience, for someone with only a MCSE and no IT experience I wouldn't pay more than £15K pa..
But you get what you pay for, when the **** hits the fan the only thing this person is going to be good for is dialing the number for MS Support..
cheerio
07 February 2002, 09:16 AM
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Puff,
>But then there is my boss - who on the one hand wants a system >that never falls over (like this w/end just past ) and/or is >redundant & failsafe BUT won't pay for someone to look after it >fulltime
But aren't you running NT? He must be a muppet.....
>But then there is my boss - who on the one hand wants a system >that never falls over (like this w/end just past ) and/or is >redundant & failsafe BUT won't pay for someone to look after it >fulltime
But aren't you running NT? He must be a muppet.....
07 February 2002, 09:34 AM
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LOL @ DJ
Puff, Forget the MCSE - Find a smart kid who wants to learn. Teach 'em stuff on the job that they need to know - not the MCSE stuff that they will never see in your environment - Pay 'em low with the promise of rises as they learn more and are more productive. Meantime from the number of rants you've had about your boss - Look for somewhere else yourself
Puff, Forget the MCSE - Find a smart kid who wants to learn. Teach 'em stuff on the job that they need to know - not the MCSE stuff that they will never see in your environment - Pay 'em low with the promise of rises as they learn more and are more productive. Meantime from the number of rants you've had about your boss - Look for somewhere else yourself
07 February 2002, 09:39 AM
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devils_ad69, thanks for that helpful comment. This is a discussion about the value of MCSEs, not yet another OS flame war.
DJ Dunk, bugger off back to the Muppet hutch.
DJ Dunk, bugger off back to the Muppet hutch.
07 February 2002, 10:35 AM
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Same thoughts as everyone else really.....
MCSE and never worked in IT = Newbie.
MCSE + 3/4/5 yrs Comm Exp with good references = Invaluable.
If in doubt check the technique - any guy that knows his stuff will be happy to answer some "real world scenario" technical questions.....even if he's not 100% right you'll get an idea as to how good he is/isn't.......
MCSE and never worked in IT = Newbie.
MCSE + 3/4/5 yrs Comm Exp with good references = Invaluable.
If in doubt check the technique - any guy that knows his stuff will be happy to answer some "real world scenario" technical questions.....even if he's not 100% right you'll get an idea as to how good he is/isn't.......
07 February 2002, 11:27 AM
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Not really Carl - IMHO, cause it helps to fill in all those awkward detailed things/gaps that come up when you least expect it, and that on-one seems able to explain, and that don't make sense like for example :
Sysadmin - "I farted and my trust relationship failed"
MCSE - "Did you eat chick peas?"
Sysadmin - "Yeah"
MCSE - "aha - eat a fried egg sandwich and you'll be fine again"
and lo and behold it works!
*Hope that makes sense - y'know all the stupid things that are buried in the bottom of the book - I met a lot of MCSE's who are full of gems like the above......
Sysadmin - "I farted and my trust relationship failed"
MCSE - "Did you eat chick peas?"
Sysadmin - "Yeah"
MCSE - "aha - eat a fried egg sandwich and you'll be fine again"
and lo and behold it works!
*Hope that makes sense - y'know all the stupid things that are buried in the bottom of the book - I met a lot of MCSE's who are full of gems like the above......
07 February 2002, 12:24 PM
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Without a doubt the worst skillset I have had to unfortunate pleasure of having to deal with is fresh IT graduate + MCSE..
There is nothing more pleasing than seeing one of these guys attempting to convince a Lead Consultant without a degree or MCSE but with 5 years + experience that he, the grad, knows best..
Best advice I have for these types are, keep you mouth shut and your eyes/ears open - you will undoubtably then become a very sought after person after a couple of years..
There is nothing more pleasing than seeing one of these guys attempting to convince a Lead Consultant without a degree or MCSE but with 5 years + experience that he, the grad, knows best..
Best advice I have for these types are, keep you mouth shut and your eyes/ears open - you will undoubtably then become a very sought after person after a couple of years..
07 February 2002, 01:35 PM
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my2p's worth:
experience counts much more IMHO, like ga22ar said, if you get a good engineer, consultant....he will know what to ask & where to start looking. I have recently worked with an NT MCSE from a training background, talked microsoft page-by-page, when confronted with a real scenario.....CLUELESS. What's trace-route he once asked
shunty
experience counts much more IMHO, like ga22ar said, if you get a good engineer, consultant....he will know what to ask & where to start looking. I have recently worked with an NT MCSE from a training background
, talked microsoft page-by-page, when confronted with a real scenario.....CLUELESS. What's trace-route he once asked shunty
07 February 2002, 01:35 PM
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I have been in IT for over 14 years now and don’t have a CNE or MCSE but I have had hands on for all of the 14 years including hardware software and cabling. I have worked all over the country and for every type of company you can think of.
Recently I had the pleasure of meeting a wet behind the ears MSCE holder who when he came on site began to tell me what I was doing wrong and ways I could improve what I was doing. I listened and then handed over the work to him and left him to it, this then gave him enough rope to hang himself from a very high place for all to see. (LOL).
After this he shut his mouth and watched and listened to what was being done, and MCSE is a good qualification if you can keep your gob shut and learn some hands on.
Darren.
Recently I had the pleasure of meeting a wet behind the ears MSCE holder who when he came on site began to tell me what I was doing wrong and ways I could improve what I was doing. I listened and then handed over the work to him and left him to it, this then gave him enough rope to hang himself from a very high place for all to see. (LOL).
After this he shut his mouth and watched and listened to what was being done, and MCSE is a good qualification if you can keep your gob shut and learn some hands on.
Darren.
