Whilst oil surge may be responsible for some bigend failures, it doesn't explain those failures, where the cars have never been on track, or driven particularly hard.

Also, if it was due to surge, I would expect to see many, many more failures, given the number of cars that do, do track days, and frequently.

It's also a little strange that oil surge would so frequently effect the same bearing, given the design of our engines.

That said, the only harm a baffled sump can cause, is to the pocket assuming it's fitted correctly

These are of the Prodrive GrpN sump.






[Edited by R19KET - 8/1/2002 9:17:44 AM]

 

I've seen a few posts discussing big end failures, so I thought some of you might like laugh and see the breakdown of the repair costs to get my Sti V4 engine rebuilt and back on the road.

Symptoms before failure: rattling noise from engine area (like metal on metal), stupid comparison but the speed of the noise was about the same as a pneumatic drill.

And the cost: -

1xCrankshaft £475.00
1xBig End Bearing Set £120.25
1xMain Bearing Set £135.38
1xCon Rod £61.49
1xOil Cooler £95.68
1xEngine Gasket Set £379.60
1xModified Oil Pump £175.00
2xInlet Valve £91.10
2xExhaust Valve £96.88
1xLH RC Gasket £18.68
1xRH RC Gasket £18.68
4xSP Gasket £44.60
1xInduction Pipe £98.63
4xSpark Plugs £41.00
1xOil Filter £10.12
4.5xEngine Oil £23.63
3xCoolant £10.20
4xCam Bolts £12.44
1xCam Belt £99.97
1xAir Con Recharge £75.00
20xLabour £900.00
Sub Total £2,983.33
VAT @ 17.5% £522.08
Total £3,505.41

Ouch! If you don't want to see a grown man cry then please don't reply with comments about how I could have sourced part 'x' from garage 'y' and saved myself £500 - as I have paid for the repairs and am now running the engine in (roll on 1,000 miles!).

I'm no mechanic but I would suggest that if you catch the problem earlier/later the bill could rise/fall accordingly.

As part of the work the garage fitted a new oil pump. Off the record, they feel that this is the main cause of the big end failures that they see through their workshops. I'd be interested to see if any of you have had your oil pumps changed and whether you have still had a big end failure. Perhaps we should do a survey to see if the garage has hit the nail on the head regarding a possible solution?

If it is the solution then you could all go and get your oil pumps changed for a couple of hundred quid instead of a £3.5K bill!

Please feel free to add to this thread if you have had similar problems as I'd like to get a feel for how widespread the problem is.

regards, Mark.



[Edited by bigmac - 7/30/2002 3:00:09 PM]

[Edited by bigmac - 7/30/2002 3:00:44 PM]

[Edited by bigmac - 7/30/2002 6:49:15 PM]

 

just curious but where did you get the work done?

why do they think its the oil pump? do they recon its due to oil surges from cornering too fast?

 

oh yeh..

you could have sourced part 'x' from garage 'y' and saved myself £500

 

why intake pipe? and couldnt they do it without ******** the aircon?

David

 

Seems like a rip off to me.

Intake pipe?
Very expensive main bearings.
The aircon pump can be removed from engine and left connected

I am glad your car is running again, but this seems excessive, even acounting for things like the uprated oil pump.

Paul

 

bigmac,
how much warning did you get - i.e. how long did you get the metal to metal sound?

 

Gravelexpress - I travelled about 20 miles (30 minute journey to work) took country lanes and took it easy once noise started. Started of as a faint ticking noise about 10 minutes into trip. By the time I got to work it was same ticking/rattling noise only louder. I then arranged to have car put on a trailer and taken to the garage.

Dizzy/David/Pavlo - I can't comment on the procedures that the garage used to remove the engine etc... You are quite right, they could rip me off so easily. I know I could do the same to someone if they wanted me to estimate a piece of work in my occupation! (I.T.)

 

1xCrankshaft £475.00
Sounds cheap for a NEW crankshaft

1xBig End Bearing Set £120.25
1xMain Bearing Set £135.38
You can het both sets of bearings for about £150

1xCon Rod £61.49
1xOil Cooler £95.68
Is this really necessary??

1xEngine Gasket Set £379.60
F**K 2 head gaskets
2 Inlet manifold gaskets
£15 worth of O-rings ( dealer )
various exhaust gaskets
There is never £379 worth of engine gaskets.

1xModified Oil Pump £175.00
Can be bought for around £150

2xInlet Valve £91.10
2xExhaust Valve £96.88
Cant say for sure, but sounds like crazy prices.. Why were they replaced anyway?? Especially in those numbers??

1xLH RC Gasket £18.68
1xRH RC Gasket £18.68
4xSP Gasket £44.60
Whats an SP gasket???

1xInduction Pipe £98.63
Why would this need replaced, and why is it so expensive??

4xSpark Plugs £41.00
1xOil Filter £10.12
4.5xEngine Oil £23.63
3xCoolant £10.20
4xCam Bolts £12.44
Why were these replaced??

1xCam Belt £99.97
Can be bought for £50 apparently ( midland impreza )

1xAir Con Recharge £75.00
20xLabour £900.00
Sounds like dealer labour charges.

Thats a pretty expensive rebuild, although I am surprised that a crankshaft doesnt cost more. It sounds like the best value bit of the rebuild, if in fact it was replaced. Im sure that they can be re-ground ? , and the rod re-circled ?
I higly doubt that the oil pump has anything to do with bearing failures in most cases. They just seem to go at random, anything form a few thousand miles, to over a hundred thousand miles. When my big ends went, I still had oil pressure, so it isnt the oil pump. I would say that the oil flow problem is possible, but also the quality of oil and frequency of oil changes would be major contributors, as would be the amount of abuse the engine recieves.
But perhaps, sometimes they just go, and we cant explain it. tah is the most worrying bit about it all.

[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 7/30/2002 5:32:48 PM]

 

How many miles had you sti done before the big end's went?,
Is the noise very distictive?, just bought a sti on a 96P and managed to get a 2year warrenty with it, i'm so glade i took it after i read what has happened to your sti!(is that an 97 version?)

 

gees lads the man siad he DIDNT want a breakdown in costs and so far peeps are rubbing salt in the wound!!! what do u techy guys reckon on the oil pump being the source of the problem? its fairly obvious that there is a weak link somewhere or is it just that imprezas are the most common high-performance(cossies , evos etc seem to be less common) car which in turn makes it look like there is a major prob if ya know what i mean

Cheers

 

hmm, engine gasket set, and then more gaskets?????

I have a sneaking suspicion that "SP gaskets" could be Spark Plug gaskets, which come with plugs anyway.

There does seem to be some odd things on your list

BTW, crank price is about right, more or less the same as Graham Goode.

Paul

 

Would a big ends go as quickly as has been described (ten minutes) unless there is no oil being fed to it?

If the oil pump failed and there wasnt any oil going about wouldnt it have overheated and siezed first? Big end bearings are usually quite robust things. To go from "ticking" to hammering in 10 minutes is damn fast. I had a motorbike that had crank rumble for 6 months because of worn big end bearing and still did 12,000 rpm without falling to bits iun 10 minutes.

Just curious.....

Buzz

 

ayrz1 – the car had done about 41,000 miles. It’s a ’98 Sti Ver 4 (S reg). Yes, the noise when it occurs is distinctive (hopefully none of you will ever hear it!). I drive it ... firmly. That is to say it is not constantly wragged and it is not driven like a wuss (unless of course you take the 1,000 mile running in period I am currently enduring).

fivepint – thanks for backing me on my original comment regarding the prices. It still brings a tear to my eye when I look at the total cost. Well that’s the family’s holiday out the window, but at least I’ve got my car back!

all – I have very limited knowledge of the mechanical side of things. Perhaps if I did I could have questioned the work done. All I do know is that this should not happen to a properly serviced/non wragged/41,000 motor - unless there was a fault somewhere with a component(s).

regards, Mark.

 

Others have slated the oil pump change !
Personally on a rebuild such as this it IS cost effective to replace the pump, worn or not and what better time to replace it with an uprated one...well done there.
Still scratching my head over why you needed an intake pipe and an oil cooler, did they drop the engine on it

Someone metioned sp gasket = spark plug gasket, I nearly spat my cup of tea all over the monitor, I think you might find
Sp gasket = SUMP gasket.
EDIT : ahh just re read the list of parts and noticed the 4x sp gasket....**** knows what that is

At least you will know how not to be taken for a ride if it ever happens again (I pray it does not) We all learn by our mistakes.

Andy C

[Edited by Fuzz - 7/30/2002 7:10:14 PM]

 

Sorry to tell you might have saved some money elsewhere. In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't have made a massive difference.

 

Sorry to hear about another engine letting go.
Mine let go after a short burst in the 6.6 to 7k range but did not fail at this rev range. My engine just stalled & under turn of key to get started it sounded awful - lots of clunking noise.

Some things on your list do look suspect to me as I have had a rebuild & cannot remember a few parts that are on your list.

For reference my scooby is the STI 5.

 

intake pipe could be maf... coolant... I expect is antifreeze or similar..

Oh well glad to see you have your car back...

Take the car / Family and a tent to france!

David

 

Some of the prices are certainly OTT, but some of the others seem ok.

I'm not certain why the valves would be damaged from a bigend failure, but I guess it's possible that the lack of a bearing allowed the piston to hit the valves. That would also explain why 2 of each were needed !!!! But then I'd expect a new piston to be on the list.

Whilst the gasket kit comes with several parts, there are various, not included. Such as the 4 rocker cover seals for the spark plugs, etc'.

Mark.

 

stevieturbo

£475 is correct for a crank for a scooby i personally would'nt want a reground crank or conrod for balance reasons.
the cost for the bearings i think is excessive but it's what subaru charge ,
conrod is necessary but not the the oil cooler they can be flushed out theres not a lot to them ,
'o' rings is expensive i agree as they all come in the engine kit which for some reason doesn't include inlet manifold or exhaust gaskets,
when your paying out 3 grand for an engine job who's going to argue over £25 for an oil pump at least if the garage supply it then subaru stump the bill if it happens again and it does point to the oil pump being the cause of the problem,
i agree about the valves does seem excessive and why were they replaced?,
an sp gasket is the spark plug gaskets these fit in the rocker cover and circle the spark plug holes,
induction pipe they should have paid for i agree,
the cam bolts also should have been paid for by them if they damaged them as they can be reused,
the rest of that bit is normal bits that should have been replaced as part of a rebuild,
as for the rest all seems ok apart from the labour which does seem excessive. the last rebuild i done cost about 2 grand with pretty much the same parts except the ones i queried but at least now it's all done and your back on the road and all the parts are covered for 3 years now so if it does go again you shouldn't have to pay

 

Bigmac,

I had big end failure on my STi V4 four weeks ago. Had the engine rebuilt but had the crank reground rather than replaced to keep cost down. I also had an uprated oil pump fitted due to it being suggested that this could have been the cause. Just completed my 1000 miles of running in, and having oil and filter changed tomorrow just in time for two drive meets at the weekend Yippeee!!

Lizzy

P.S. Should I still take it a bit easy or can I really go for it???

 

I would recommend taking it easy, it may not be want you want to hear. After a 1,000 miles of sub 4,000 revs not to mentiob the lots of ££££££spent I would be inclined to break the engine back in gently.

What did the garage say to do?

Perhaps some of the other peeps on the board can confirm this?

 

*pah* call that am expensive rebuild? I have reciepts for over £8k for my 22B's heart transplant.
Hope that makes you feel better.
Chuck LOL

 

Nice one Chuck, thats even made me feel better is there a diff between UK turbo oil pump ans Sti oil pump or is it just the higher revs of the sti?

Cheers

ps: no worries Big Mac, thx for the thread its helpful to see the breakdown of costs

 

I had mine (rebuilt after big end failure) with second hand bits for £1700 (included turbo as well). I have heard of lots of people paying around £3000 and that seems to be the going rate for rebuild.

For the record I do not reccomend anyone uses Midland Impreza for anyhing and remember you get what you pay for.

 

Where did you get this work done, i take it wasnt by a subaru garage.

 

I stand corrected on the spark plug gasket thingys.
teach me to spout off wont it,
I was thinking too literally (gaskets on the actual spark plugs) hahahaha.

 

scoobynutta555 - the vehicle was repaired by a specialist subaru/tvr garage near to me. I don't want to name names as I don’t think it is fair as they are probably not following this thread and therefore cannot give their side of the story to some of your price/part queries. If you know the area I live in you probably can guess the garage. Just to add, I am not criticising the garage, as I think they did a good job.

Personally I blame Subaru for making a sub-standard component(s). Can’t say which component exactly as the jury is still out as to what causes the failure.

 

Hi All

Before I start - I'm not the mechancial expert on this stuff, but I do work @ Townend Garage in Carnforth (I look after electronic side of things) - so I hear what goes on.

I won't go on about how much we could have done it for - but I'm afraid you have been robbed. You can get the engine in & out without needing to discharge the air con - I've seen it done twice today !

The Scooby engines are prone to big end failure. (There are four in bits in the workshop today with big end failure). But the lads here think it's down to oil surge in the sump, not oil pump failure. The net result is the same - no oil to bearings - but the fix is not. We fit our engines with a baffled sump - to stop the oil slopping around as much - so far not one of our engines has suffered big end failure.

Once the big ends start to go, they do go quickly. And due to the very small gap between the head and the piston, if they are allowed to go completely and the engine is revved, the piston will hit the head. However it doesn't hit the valves - so I'm not sure why you had to pay for two new ones!


I hope i've not rubbed too much salt in the wound - but if this happens to anyone else - give us a call. I hope you'll find that we will be able to give you a fairer price than the sorry tale above !

 

The subaru sumps do seem to have a lot of baffles as standard. Do you mean also a larger capacity sump?? I would have thought that a lack of oil getting to the pump, due to oil starvation, would have cause more than the big ends to go. Although suppose momentary starvation, would kill those items furthest from the oil pump first?

Standard subaru sump.