Scottish Independence
I find that No voters are less pushy, they are less in your face and they are much more conservative with their views. A lot of No voters are generally older, educated, in professional positions and dare I say it, more financially secure. No voters are less likely to be on facebook shouting from the rafters pushing their views on people.
The Yes campaign however, are the exact opposite, a lot of Yes voters are what you would call the 'proper working class' people with less money and a grudge to bear on Westminster. The kind of people that are voting to oust the Tories or because they are anti-English. They are loud like they are in life and they are pushing their points, somehow you're less Scottish if you're a No voter?
That's probably why the Yes page has 270k likes compared to the No page of 190k likes. The older generations do not have facebook accounts and they are pretty old fashioned with their views that you do not speak about politics or indeed religion publically.
I'm in the undecided camp, I'm on Facebook and this is my opinion based on being bombarded recently mainly from the Yes side. Tories are this and that (This isn't a general Election, but no mention that Labour were in power 1997-2010 to which the Scots DID elect) Everything is Tory this and Tory that. Then the Anti English brigade On the other side though you have Glasgow Rangers fans voting No purely on footballing beliefs.
If you were to believe facebook, the Yes have it in the bag convincingly but we all know that's not true going by all the polls so from that, it's fair to assume that the No camp are far more conservative and less likely to get involved, whereas the Yes are far more pushy and more vocal.
For me, my heart is saying Yes, it would be great to live in our own little bubble and have a government that we voted for that only needs to look after 5.2m people. My head is saying No though, the negatives outweighing the positives, currency, defence, economy etc etc. I'm still undecided but have to say, swaying towards that No vote, life really isn't all that bad as it is if I'm being honest.
The Yes campaign however, are the exact opposite, a lot of Yes voters are what you would call the 'proper working class' people with less money and a grudge to bear on Westminster. The kind of people that are voting to oust the Tories or because they are anti-English. They are loud like they are in life and they are pushing their points, somehow you're less Scottish if you're a No voter?
That's probably why the Yes page has 270k likes compared to the No page of 190k likes. The older generations do not have facebook accounts and they are pretty old fashioned with their views that you do not speak about politics or indeed religion publically.
I'm in the undecided camp, I'm on Facebook and this is my opinion based on being bombarded recently mainly from the Yes side. Tories are this and that (This isn't a general Election, but no mention that Labour were in power 1997-2010 to which the Scots DID elect) Everything is Tory this and Tory that. Then the Anti English brigade
On the other side though you have Glasgow Rangers fans voting No purely on footballing beliefs.If you were to believe facebook, the Yes have it in the bag convincingly but we all know that's not true going by all the polls so from that, it's fair to assume that the No camp are far more conservative and less likely to get involved, whereas the Yes are far more pushy and more vocal.
For me, my heart is saying Yes, it would be great to live in our own little bubble and have a government that we voted for that only needs to look after 5.2m people. My head is saying No though, the negatives outweighing the positives, currency, defence, economy etc etc. I'm still undecided but have to say, swaying towards that No vote, life really isn't all that bad as it is if I'm being honest.
there are mixtures of people on both sides to be fair.
myself i am a field engineer/ tool specialist with a income that would make the average working mans eyes water with a family and mortgage and i am voting yes not for myself but for the benifit of other people and my sons
i do stand to lose if it were to go **** up but i dont think it will.
my experiance people get pushy when the are lied to
i dont believe facebook thats why i said it was my observation
but it does show peoples reactions to whats going on
me i am yes through and through
vote for what you feel is best that is everyones right
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Your opnion mate. Enjoy servicing that extra debt
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
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Devildog are you suggesting that personal, present economic performance should be sacrificed on the vague notion that it will be better for following generations? Would you argue that things being better for following generations is more than a vague notion, or is it some Presbyterian type punishment-reward cycle? I might be slightly pejorative, but why should I throw away my security for some pie in the sky nationalist stuff? Where are the specifics?
I'm saying than many of the higher earning, professionally employed "no" camp are so blinkered by the "abhorrent" thought of (for example) an extra 1% on income tax that they are voting no simply on that basis and not looking at the bigger picture or the long term.
And I say that from an equal standing to them.
I'm not talking future security - I'm talking triviality in the bigger picture. Of course if there is an Yes vote and we all end up better off, they'll not be moving to England to complain about how good life is in Scotland.
Whatever happens, there is going to be change. All we can hope and pray for (thanks Sam) is that its for the better.
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As for the rest, that's up to Westminster.
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This.
Lets look at a slightly larger picture. So BP is on record as saying indepedence is bad and theres not as much oil.
Theres a shocker. Not.
If you had a licence to print money, which licence was free, and you had favourably agreed terms with Westminster over the tax you paid not just on the oil but corporation tax too, would YOU want the status quo to change?
Of course not. The oil companies are first and foremost there to make money for their stakeholders. They are not there to comment on what is best for a Country. Independence may be better for Scotland, but it will not be better for BP. Don't for one second think that BP and others give a toss about anything other than their bottom line.
Lets look at a slightly larger picture. So BP is on record as saying indepedence is bad and theres not as much oil.
Theres a shocker. Not.
If you had a licence to print money, which licence was free, and you had favourably agreed terms with Westminster over the tax you paid not just on the oil but corporation tax too, would YOU want the status quo to change?
Of course not. The oil companies are first and foremost there to make money for their stakeholders. They are not there to comment on what is best for a Country. Independence may be better for Scotland, but it will not be better for BP. Don't for one second think that BP and others give a toss about anything other than their bottom line.
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I'm not worried about 1% on income tax, I juggle things to avoid 62% marginal rate and assuming I'm fed and watered will choose how much to work depending on tax thresholds as I do now. I'm actually worried about losing say half or more of my net worth. No one can say how far the avalanche will fall if it does.
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From: K
I have read that if the UK get arsy about negotiations around currency union (in what ever form that may take)
then an independent Scotland can scupper our seat on the UN security council
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/1957...te1%5B1%5D.pdf
"While legally the UK’s case for continued UN membership (including permanent membership) is relatively strong, the danger is that politically, unless the situation is managed (so that the other permanent members and key states raise no objections), Scottish independence could potentially be used by the non-permanent members of the UNSC and the rest of the UN membership (especially those states pushing to become new permanent members), to revisit the issue of permanent membership and wider UNSC
reform (a debate that has been rumbling since the early 1990s). It is noticeable that at the recent annual session of the UN General Assembly, a number of heads of state and government spoke about the need for UN reform, particularly of the UNSC."
then an independent Scotland can scupper our seat on the UN security council
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/1957...te1%5B1%5D.pdf
"While legally the UK’s case for continued UN membership (including permanent membership) is relatively strong, the danger is that politically, unless the situation is managed (so that the other permanent members and key states raise no objections), Scottish independence could potentially be used by the non-permanent members of the UNSC and the rest of the UN membership (especially those states pushing to become new permanent members), to revisit the issue of permanent membership and wider UNSC
reform (a debate that has been rumbling since the early 1990s). It is noticeable that at the recent annual session of the UN General Assembly, a number of heads of state and government spoke about the need for UN reform, particularly of the UNSC."
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Your opnion mate. Enjoy servicing that extra debt
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
The national debt remains the same as before. What rUK will take on is the proportion of interest payments on the 8.3% of the national debt Scotland pays which rUK would absorb.
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From: Scotchland
I have read that if the UK get arsy about negotiations around currency union (in what ever form that may take)
then an independent Scotland can scupper our seat on the UN security council
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/1957...te1%5B1%5D.pdf
"While legally the UK’s case for continued UN membership (including permanent membership) is relatively strong, the danger is that politically, unless the situation is managed (so that the other permanent members and key states raise no objections), Scottish independence could potentially be used by the non-permanent members of the UNSC and the rest of the UN membership (especially those states pushing to become new permanent members), to revisit the issue of permanent membership and wider UNSC
reform (a debate that has been rumbling since the early 1990s). It is noticeable that at the recent annual session of the UN General Assembly, a number of heads of state and government spoke about the need for UN reform, particularly of the UNSC."
then an independent Scotland can scupper our seat on the UN security council
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/1957...te1%5B1%5D.pdf
"While legally the UK’s case for continued UN membership (including permanent membership) is relatively strong, the danger is that politically, unless the situation is managed (so that the other permanent members and key states raise no objections), Scottish independence could potentially be used by the non-permanent members of the UNSC and the rest of the UN membership (especially those states pushing to become new permanent members), to revisit the issue of permanent membership and wider UNSC
reform (a debate that has been rumbling since the early 1990s). It is noticeable that at the recent annual session of the UN General Assembly, a number of heads of state and government spoke about the need for UN reform, particularly of the UNSC."
We'll do the same.
If they get arsey we can always nuke the *****.
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From: Epsom
a good straightforward assessment of the situation. Scotland voting yes is a vote for economic and societal suicide. The hate that is directed to us "oppressing" English is such that I say don't let the door hit you on the **** on the way out to your doom. Madmen!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...ence-would-be/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...ence-would-be/
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Your opnion mate. Enjoy servicing that extra debt
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
No union means Scotland starts with no liability. And most likely a good credit rating based on its resources. its an asset rich country.
That's one hell of a better place to start from than the ecomony that will be left behind.
Scotlands balance sheet will be significantly healthier from the off than the rest of the uk's it would leave behind. That works for me.
So it's going to take me 11 years to pay off my credit card instead of 10 years. But a least my ex won't still be using it... I'll pay up.
And there'll be a flight of capital southward because, for example, your central bank couldn't afford to provide the £85,000 deposit guarantee (or any other investment guarantee) available on bank accounts and investments over the border.
And, if your scenario is so good, how come it's not Salmond's "Plan A"?
After all the markets love a sure-fire investment and you make it sound like such a wonderful opportunity it ought to be like an over-subscribed privatisation offer. But, the truth is, the markets aren't buying it.
If he were truthful Salmond would tell you what he already knows but he can't say: You'd be best off with the Euro. At least you'd have Germany to underwrite your debt. But he can't sell that, can he?
Hopefully, most of Scotland isn't as deluded you.
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"It's the economy, stupid." James Carville, 1992
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I don't mean to be rude, but you really have no understanding of economics, capital markets and government bonds and rate setting.
So it's going to take me 11 years to pay off my credit card instead of 10 years. But a least my ex won't still be using it... I'll pay up.
And there'll be a flight of capital southward because, for example, your central bank couldn't afford to provide the £85,000 deposit guarantee (or any other investment guarantee) available on bank accounts and investments over the border.
And, if your scenario is so good, how come it's not Salmond's "Plan A"?
After all the markets love a sure-fire investment and you make it sound like such a wonderful opportunity it ought to be like an over-subscribed privatisation offer. But, the truth is, the markets aren't buying it.
If he were truthful Salmond would tell you what he already knows but he can't say: You'd be best off with the Euro. At least you'd have Germany to underwrite your debt. But he can't sell that, can he?
Hopefully, most of Scotland isn't as deluded you.
So it's going to take me 11 years to pay off my credit card instead of 10 years. But a least my ex won't still be using it... I'll pay up.
And there'll be a flight of capital southward because, for example, your central bank couldn't afford to provide the £85,000 deposit guarantee (or any other investment guarantee) available on bank accounts and investments over the border.
And, if your scenario is so good, how come it's not Salmond's "Plan A"?
After all the markets love a sure-fire investment and you make it sound like such a wonderful opportunity it ought to be like an over-subscribed privatisation offer. But, the truth is, the markets aren't buying it.
If he were truthful Salmond would tell you what he already knows but he can't say: You'd be best off with the Euro. At least you'd have Germany to underwrite your debt. But he can't sell that, can he?
Hopefully, most of Scotland isn't as deluded you.
Sam, please don't presume that I have no understanding.
I was trying to keep it very simple. That tends to work best around here.
I've already accepted that "extra debt" wasn't the correct terminology. But your analogy doesn't really work either. Its not exactly as simple as taking an extra year to pay off a credit card is it? - and if you are as knowledgeable as you are insinuating, you'd know that too.
By the way - its not "my" scenario. I've never professed it to be. Its just one scenario.
What the markets are not buying right now is uncertainty. Pure and simple.
The vast majority of the independent and educated commentary supports the contention that Scotland is quite capable of going it alone, whatever the currency outcome.
I'm far from delluded Sam. I know there are many uncertainties. That was always going to be the case. It might work, it might not. Just because I choose to support the positive does not make me delusional. Thats the problem with a forum. It can be hard to guage the sentment behind the posts. I might say the the manner of your posts makes you an arrogant, condescending ****, not accepting of any alternate point of view, who always believes he is correct and states opinion as fact. But I've been around here long enough to know that's probably not the case
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There are many uncertainties, one of which are the figures used by John Swinney with regards to oil revenue only to be downgraded by Alex Salmond. Sure you have Westminsters three stooges up in Scotland, but iScotland will have Dumb and Dumber running iScotland.
http://forargyll.com/2014/09/jackie-...es-projection/
http://forargyll.com/2014/09/jackie-...es-projection/
Let's be clear. Ask anyone on here. I am arrogant on my subjects, I am condescending and I'm a first class, number 1 ****. And I hate it when people avoid the facts or bang on like they know what they're talking about when they haven't a clue.
But my bluster, flannel, question avoider and bull plop alarms are pointing at your "answers" and they're ringing off the scale right now.
And you still haven't answered my question.
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From: K
And once again you'd be wrong.
Let's be clear. Ask anyone on here. I am arrogant on my subjects, I am condescending and I'm a first class, number 1 ****. And I hate it when people avoid the facts or bang on like they know what they're talking about when they haven't a clue.
But my bluster, flannel, question avoider and bull plop alarms are pointing at your "answers" and they're ringing off the scale right now.
And you still haven't answered my question.
Let's be clear. Ask anyone on here. I am arrogant on my subjects, I am condescending and I'm a first class, number 1 ****. And I hate it when people avoid the facts or bang on like they know what they're talking about when they haven't a clue.
But my bluster, flannel, question avoider and bull plop alarms are pointing at your "answers" and they're ringing off the scale right now.
And you still haven't answered my question.
I strongly suspect you would - it is "the markets" after all
and apart the last global financial collapse, they get most things right - right
Last edited by hodgy0_2; Sep 11, 2014 at 08:36 PM.
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From: I'll check my gps
Yep, theres no such thing as independence these days the world is getting smaller with things like the internet and what happens in America happens here. Best just to have more legs so its harder to get knocked down when things go **** up, just look àt what happened to some of the other European countries when the global financial crisis happened.
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From: K
....Yes. Right. The cash machines are still working. How come? Printing money and increasing govt borrowing. Borrowing from, er....? whisper it.... "the markets".
Still doesn't answer the question, but nice digression though.
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"It's the economy, stupid." James Carville, 1992
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From: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Without doubt, the world's most iconic brand. Potentially devalued. It would be a tragedy and an unforgiveable mistake.
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From: K
Depends. If they were my Pringles; only so long as there'd be enough in it to fund the clean up, nip down to TK Maxx and buy new ones and have enough left over to show a profit. My lucky D&Gs: no way, they were a present!
....Yes. Right. The cash machines are still working. How come? Printing money and increasing govt borrowing. Borrowing from, er....? whisper it.... "the markets".
Still doesn't answer the question, but nice digression though.
_______________________________________
"It's the economy, stupid." James Carville, 1992
....Yes. Right. The cash machines are still working. How come? Printing money and increasing govt borrowing. Borrowing from, er....? whisper it.... "the markets".
Still doesn't answer the question, but nice digression though.
_______________________________________
"It's the economy, stupid." James Carville, 1992
Oh and the economy is a lot more than "the markets"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; Sep 11, 2014 at 09:40 PM.
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http://news.stv.tv/scotland/291608-r...and-votes-yes/
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
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From: I'll check my gps
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From: K
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/291608-r...and-votes-yes/
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
Are you aware that Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, all trade quite happily in the UK and are registered in Ireland, Luxembourg, Venus and Alpha Centuri respectively
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From: K
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http://news.stv.tv/scotland/291608-r...and-votes-yes/
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
Obviously this can't be true as it was heavily argued it could never happen, and simply not possible oppps pmsl.
I'll leave it to those that continue to guess and simply surf the web for answers.
I'll pop by in a few days to see if some have caught up with reality.
