Ferrari team orders- disgraceful.
12 May 2002, 11:06 PM
#32
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There have always been team orders - fair enough. - Not sure anyone is going to argue if it happened 2 races from the end of the season if the championship had been very tight.
To do it now - mid-season with Schumacher well ahead is the worst I can remember. For Schumacher to act remoresful on the podium and in the interview is just hypocrasy (sp?). He should have had the guts to refuse to pass.
Its one thing for the team to ask - but there was nothing to force Schumacher to take advantage,
But (as someone said) its ferrari so nothing will be done.
Deano
To do it now - mid-season with Schumacher well ahead is the worst I can remember. For Schumacher to act remoresful on the podium and in the interview is just hypocrasy (sp?). He should have had the guts to refuse to pass.
Its one thing for the team to ask - but there was nothing to force Schumacher to take advantage,
But (as someone said) its ferrari so nothing will be done.
Deano
12 May 2002, 11:13 PM
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Victoria
Respect to you
Like you said..
"I don't think other motor sports are relevant in this situation"
I'm sure world super bikes are exciting.
If you're are into world super bikes
Nick
Respect to you
Like you said..
"I don't think other motor sports are relevant in this situation"
I'm sure world super bikes are exciting.
If you're are into world super bikes Nick
13 May 2002, 08:49 AM
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<RANT>
I was totally disgusted too... Considering that drivers are risking so much to drive and win (like Sato), for cynical malarky such as that to rob the race of a real victor like that pisses on all their efforts. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Will that seriously affect peoples perception of Ferrari? Only negatively.
Logiclee said:
Well, I'm afraid that's a "bag of w*nks", too! 
Have you forgotten the crap about "cheating" to fix their on-road position for the follwoing days. And what about FORD flexing its muscle and making that privateer who'd had a fantastic race give up his position to allow Colin McCrash another WRC point...Despite the fact he was too stupid to keep his own car on the road. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
(Sigh)
At least I haven't been unlucky enough to pay to watch these events...!!!
</RANT>
I was totally disgusted too... Considering that drivers are risking so much to drive and win (like Sato), for cynical malarky such as that to rob the race of a real victor like that pisses on all their efforts. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Will that seriously affect peoples perception of Ferrari? Only negatively.
Logiclee said:
Closer racing in the WRC even if it is against the clock.
Have you forgotten the crap about "cheating" to fix their on-road position for the follwoing days. And what about FORD flexing its muscle and making that privateer who'd had a fantastic race give up his position to allow Colin McCrash another WRC point...Despite the fact he was too stupid to keep his own car on the road. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
(Sigh)
At least I haven't been unlucky enough to pay to watch these events...!!!
</RANT>
13 May 2002, 08:50 AM
#35
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Does no-one remember a certain WRC driver pulling over for 30 seconds to let his colleague win?
Re: Schu. It wasn't a popular move, but I can understand why it was done. I just feel sorry for the bloke that put his life savings on Barichello winning the race
It's never been that interesting a sport in the last few years IMHO, so what's changed?
Re: Schu. It wasn't a popular move, but I can understand why it was done. I just feel sorry for the bloke that put his life savings on Barichello winning the race
It's never been that interesting a sport in the last few years IMHO, so what's changed?
13 May 2002, 08:55 AM
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Schuey said (paraphrasing here) 'if you look at the telemetry, I did slow down when rubens did and considered defying ferrari's orders'
Didn't look like it to me - rubens slows and schuey is round him faster than my kids when they see chocolate!!!!
Didn't look like it to me - rubens slows and schuey is round him faster than my kids when they see chocolate!!!!
13 May 2002, 09:06 AM
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Technical director Ross Brawn justified the move to give Schumacher the win by saying Ferrari dictated what pace their drivers should race at, so therefore it wasn't a true fight to the flag.
"Rubens Barrichello won the race today," said the Englishman. "But in the interests of Ferrari we made the decision for the drivers' championship. We told the drivers not to race each other. We were telling Michael not to push we were telling Rubens not to push. That's not a race."
"Rubens Barrichello won the race today," said the Englishman. "But in the interests of Ferrari we made the decision for the drivers' championship. We told the drivers not to race each other. We were telling Michael not to push we were telling Rubens not to push. That's not a race."
13 May 2002, 09:09 AM
#38
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From formula1.com
FFS Schu -- it's no use trying to make amends by letting him stand on the top step and giving him the trophy. If you'd felt that strongly about it then you wouldn't have overtaken at the end.
Schu was outclassed all weekend by Barrichello.
Edited to say that if Schu had stayed behind Barrichello at the end, then he would have certainly gone up in a lot of people's estimation. I'm reminded of the time that Moss won against Fangio at the British Grand Prix, and Fangio would never say if he'd let Moss win or not. If he'd done so, it was in a very subtle way (not charge off into the distance then stop at the last corner). The only other time Fangio was beaten in the same car was by a German at the German GP...
[Edited by carl - 5/13/2002 9:11:57 AM]
On the podium the world champion insisted Barrichello stand on the top step, and in the press conference Barrichello again took centre stage.
Barrichello:"My determination will get more wins, there was no point arguing. Michael gave me the trophy that I will take home. I am happy about that."
Schumacher:"I don't take a lot of joy from this victory."
Barrichello:"My determination will get more wins, there was no point arguing. Michael gave me the trophy that I will take home. I am happy about that."
Schumacher:"I don't take a lot of joy from this victory."
Schu was outclassed all weekend by Barrichello.
Edited to say that if Schu had stayed behind Barrichello at the end, then he would have certainly gone up in a lot of people's estimation. I'm reminded of the time that Moss won against Fangio at the British Grand Prix, and Fangio would never say if he'd let Moss win or not. If he'd done so, it was in a very subtle way (not charge off into the distance then stop at the last corner). The only other time Fangio was beaten in the same car was by a German at the German GP...
[Edited by carl - 5/13/2002 9:11:57 AM]
13 May 2002, 09:16 AM
#39
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How hard do u think Schuey tried during the race though? If he hadn't been following his team mate he would have tried to overtake at some point, because they do have a well established team ranking he didn't have to risk taking out both Ferraris on a last ditch out-braking move. It makes alot of sense to me and I think it was the right thing to do. Sorry, but having the number 1 on the car is more important than any individual driver.
Chuck
Chuck
13 May 2002, 09:19 AM
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I also thought that, but he was outclassed in qualifying too. Also at one point he had someone between himself and Rubens (one of the Williams IIRC) and he didn't seem to be making much impression on them (maybe he was waiting for the pitstops).
Still, you can't tell me that he deliberately tried to start from the second row of the grid?
Still, you can't tell me that he deliberately tried to start from the second row of the grid?
13 May 2002, 12:24 PM
#42
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Look at it this way, Ferrari say now and always have that their goal is to win the championship with Michael Schuey, not that they want to win the championship.
Rubens had a choice, no one forced him to go to, and to resign at a team where HIS CONTRACT says stuff to this effect.
Im not sure hes one of the top drivers (well maybe the last few races) and as such which car do you see him driving if not a ferrari? Look at Jensen whats he doing, or Irvine, even Villenueve.
Dont forget these people are shrewd and have managers and advisers on what to do. How much do you think Rubens is earning now? And maybe he will just give up in a couple of years...
For all the F1 bashers, just dont watch it. But remember a hell of a lot of currect road car safety features are directly linked to past F1 development, would you like this to stop? The accident yesterday and a number over the last season or so have played testament to how awesome the safety developments in F1 are now. Indycars look very similar but they offer no where near the safety that a modern F1 car does.
F1 and motorsport always have had team orders please dont think for 1 minute that this isnt the case. Its just that at ferrari they are open about it, and that F1 due to its extreme nature, and the skill of the drivers makes it more obvious. Its just the same as another sports person not giving 100% deliberately.
How many people here do things in their job that they dont agree with, but do it because they are told too by their boss?
robski
Rubens had a choice, no one forced him to go to, and to resign at a team where HIS CONTRACT says stuff to this effect.
Im not sure hes one of the top drivers (well maybe the last few races) and as such which car do you see him driving if not a ferrari? Look at Jensen whats he doing, or Irvine, even Villenueve.
Dont forget these people are shrewd and have managers and advisers on what to do. How much do you think Rubens is earning now? And maybe he will just give up in a couple of years...
For all the F1 bashers, just dont watch it. But remember a hell of a lot of currect road car safety features are directly linked to past F1 development, would you like this to stop? The accident yesterday and a number over the last season or so have played testament to how awesome the safety developments in F1 are now. Indycars look very similar but they offer no where near the safety that a modern F1 car does.
F1 and motorsport always have had team orders please dont think for 1 minute that this isnt the case. Its just that at ferrari they are open about it, and that F1 due to its extreme nature, and the skill of the drivers makes it more obvious. Its just the same as another sports person not giving 100% deliberately.
How many people here do things in their job that they dont agree with, but do it because they are told too by their boss?
robski
13 May 2002, 12:41 PM
#43
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If it's a team sport then why have a drivers championship?
The sponsors are interested in the constructors championship, the spectators the drivers.
It's like the owners of two race horses in a race, and then deciding mid race that one of the horses should let the other win. Horse racing would'nt stand for it, neither should the FIA.
Schuey had a choice, he could have refused the order. Who's going to sack him at ferrari? He only started to show remorse when he heard all the booing.
I had started to show admiration for the guy(almost forgiven him 1994), but now it's down to zero again. Schuey is a very quick racing driver, but in spite of the stats he'll never be one of the greats? Why?
Because for most of his career he's never had a team mate that's been allowed to compete on even terms. At Benneton the team developed the car and tactics around him. The other drivers had to make do with a car designed for someone else. Ferrari are just the same. It's a lot easier to clock up wins and championships when your team mate is hamstrung for you.
The sooner he retires the better.
Ferrari have sold their souls for success, and now F1 is nothing but a pretence.
Every 2 weeks i'll get my video tapes out of the pre 1994 years.
Senna died in 1994, and F1 caught cancer soon after..
The sponsors are interested in the constructors championship, the spectators the drivers.
It's like the owners of two race horses in a race, and then deciding mid race that one of the horses should let the other win. Horse racing would'nt stand for it, neither should the FIA.
Schuey had a choice, he could have refused the order. Who's going to sack him at ferrari? He only started to show remorse when he heard all the booing.
I had started to show admiration for the guy(almost forgiven him 1994), but now it's down to zero again. Schuey is a very quick racing driver, but in spite of the stats he'll never be one of the greats? Why?
Because for most of his career he's never had a team mate that's been allowed to compete on even terms. At Benneton the team developed the car and tactics around him. The other drivers had to make do with a car designed for someone else. Ferrari are just the same. It's a lot easier to clock up wins and championships when your team mate is hamstrung for you.
The sooner he retires the better.
Ferrari have sold their souls for success, and now F1 is nothing but a pretence.
Every 2 weeks i'll get my video tapes out of the pre 1994 years.
Senna died in 1994, and F1 caught cancer soon after..
13 May 2002, 12:58 PM
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Was it my imagination or did Schey punch the air shortly after crossing the line? If so, his attitude changed pretty quickly upon noting the reaction from the crowd. The point has been made, but if he felt that strongly he should have slowed and let Barri take the win.
Question is, will FIA bare its fangs and do something about it? Like remove the race points from the constructors championship? That might prevent such behaviour in the future.
Also, surely Ferraris sponsors cant be particularly pleased with all this negative coverage. They may also bring some pressure to bear.
Question is, will FIA bare its fangs and do something about it? Like remove the race points from the constructors championship? That might prevent such behaviour in the future.
Also, surely Ferraris sponsors cant be particularly pleased with all this negative coverage. They may also bring some pressure to bear.
13 May 2002, 12:59 PM
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13 May 2002, 01:04 PM
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Yes, they have put themselves in a position by admitting it was team orders. Far better to help their case with the World Motorsports Council by claiming "spongey brake pedal" for Barrichello.
13 May 2002, 01:06 PM
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In a queue at the Ferrari bogs for a poop, does Schumacher go straight to the front ?
Well it left a nasty smell yesterday.
Bo11ocks to it, im not bothering anymore, its a crap sport anyway, off up to High Edge in Buxton e to watch the banger racing, no team orders there and as many crashes as you could want. Also occasionally a punch up and that never happens in F1 these days.
Well it left a nasty smell yesterday.
Bo11ocks to it, im not bothering anymore, its a crap sport anyway, off up to High Edge in Buxton e to watch the banger racing, no team orders there and as many crashes as you could want. Also occasionally a punch up and that never happens in F1 these days.
13 May 2002, 01:06 PM
#49
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Whole thing sucked to be honest. It spoilt what had been quite a good race (apart from the big accident). It is not unusal for there to be teams orders and to 'hold station' over the last ten laps or so rather than risk an accident that could end with both cars out.
However, I was always under the impression that Ferrari had said that if Rubens was in the lead, they wouldn't invoke team orders? Given the position of Ferrari and at this stage of the season it seemd like a very strange decision. If this had been one of the last races and the title chase was very close you could see why Ferrari may have done it (you might not agree, but you could understand it).
Listening to the press conference I think I heard MS actually critiscise Ferrari for the decision which is unheard of - so maybe he does fell strongly about this. In truth, they lost a lot of fans yesterday (inlcuding me). If MS wants to win his 5th championship and be compared with the likes of Fangio, then he and his team have a very strange way of going about it.
Chris
However, I was always under the impression that Ferrari had said that if Rubens was in the lead, they wouldn't invoke team orders? Given the position of Ferrari and at this stage of the season it seemd like a very strange decision. If this had been one of the last races and the title chase was very close you could see why Ferrari may have done it (you might not agree, but you could understand it).
Listening to the press conference I think I heard MS actually critiscise Ferrari for the decision which is unheard of - so maybe he does fell strongly about this. In truth, they lost a lot of fans yesterday (inlcuding me). If MS wants to win his 5th championship and be compared with the likes of Fangio, then he and his team have a very strange way of going about it.
Chris
13 May 2002, 01:06 PM
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Total sham, although I will still watch it.
This should give impetus to all the other teams to try even harder to get back on terms with Ferrari, the day when we see Shuey and Ferrari loosing will be worth waiting for.
This should give impetus to all the other teams to try even harder to get back on terms with Ferrari, the day when we see Shuey and Ferrari loosing will be worth waiting for.
13 May 2002, 01:19 PM
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Maybe it was simply down to Ferrari deciding they want MS to get his 5th World Championship and his first win in Austria 
It could've sounded a good idea at the time
Stefan
It could've sounded a good idea at the time
Stefan
13 May 2002, 01:26 PM
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I must admit, I was disgusted and disappointed, but you cant argue with the logic as michael says.
If he loses the championship by 3 points then what? they will be kicking themselves, and frankly, rubens is not a contender.
Rubens got a £10m contract which asks him to do what he is told, even michaels £35m/year contract says the same thing.
I do believe michael did slow down when rubens backed, I hope ferrari will release the telemetry to prove it, but the point about the victorious clenched fist got me thinking too.
I wonder if he was jubilant because of the ferrari 1/2 and would have been expecting rubens to be equally pleased for the team.
But chucks point was a good one for me.
He never pushed barichello all the way through the race, and anyone who doesnt believe he could is seriously misguided. He was outqualified yes, but equally he was called in just prior to a flying lap for a randon scrutineering check, preventing him from havign a proper qualifying time.
To say rubens out drove him is also an exaggeration, after all the offical fastest lap of the race was his.
I have no doubt that michael was more than capable of viably challenging for the lead, but team orders say hold position to protect the car, then team orders say switch positions.
If ferrari were clever they should have used some of ross brauns brains to make it less blatant, purely for their public image.
I dont think they should be punished for this, and the fia dont have a valid argument as far as I am concerned.
I have a feeling once the championship isin the bag, michale will allow rubens the same thing.
If he loses the championship by 3 points then what? they will be kicking themselves, and frankly, rubens is not a contender.
Rubens got a £10m contract which asks him to do what he is told, even michaels £35m/year contract says the same thing.
I do believe michael did slow down when rubens backed, I hope ferrari will release the telemetry to prove it, but the point about the victorious clenched fist got me thinking too.
I wonder if he was jubilant because of the ferrari 1/2 and would have been expecting rubens to be equally pleased for the team.
But chucks point was a good one for me.
He never pushed barichello all the way through the race, and anyone who doesnt believe he could is seriously misguided. He was outqualified yes, but equally he was called in just prior to a flying lap for a randon scrutineering check, preventing him from havign a proper qualifying time.
To say rubens out drove him is also an exaggeration, after all the offical fastest lap of the race was his.
I have no doubt that michael was more than capable of viably challenging for the lead, but team orders say hold position to protect the car, then team orders say switch positions.
If ferrari were clever they should have used some of ross brauns brains to make it less blatant, purely for their public image.
I dont think they should be punished for this, and the fia dont have a valid argument as far as I am concerned.
I have a feeling once the championship isin the bag, michale will allow rubens the same thing.
13 May 2002, 05:28 PM
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The note Todt passed to Brawn was a request by the Austrian Grand Prix
official. They obviously didn't have the Brazilian national anthem on disc!
Although I still say it was a breath-taking pass. It only looked like
Rubens slowed down cause Schuey carried so much speed into the final corner
- don't know what the problem is.
official. They obviously didn't have the Brazilian national anthem on disc!
Although I still say it was a breath-taking pass. It only looked like
Rubens slowed down cause Schuey carried so much speed into the final corner
- don't know what the problem is.
13 May 2002, 07:02 PM
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F1 is about as true to the sporting ideal ethos as WWF wrestling these days. I'm surprised they havent asked Shuey to dress up as the red baron yet...
I blame the corrupting hegemony of Ecclestone and Mosley for the general decline in entertainment and the sheer disdain that is shown to the paying public (unless of course you are a coroporate punter with no real nterest in the race-then you get the red carpet treatment, instead of a mud bath).
I hope the sponsors start pulling out big time,as surely they will before long as viewing figure must be in free-fall. That would restore some sense of urgency and accountability for the dross they serve up.
[Edited by sebastian - 5/13/2002 7:03:46 PM]
I blame the corrupting hegemony of Ecclestone and Mosley for the general decline in entertainment and the sheer disdain that is shown to the paying public (unless of course you are a coroporate punter with no real nterest in the race-then you get the red carpet treatment, instead of a mud bath).
I hope the sponsors start pulling out big time,as surely they will before long as viewing figure must be in free-fall. That would restore some sense of urgency and accountability for the dross they serve up.
[Edited by sebastian - 5/13/2002 7:03:46 PM]
13 May 2002, 07:07 PM
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The FIA should in, IMHO, disqualify Ferrari to get the message over that this is not what the spectating public want to see. I take all the points made (no pun intended) about team tactics, etc, etc, but, motor racing should be motor RACING.
Couldn't imagine Prost or Senna letting each other past when they were team mates or Mansell & Picquet for that matter.
CART racing is much more enjoyable for overtaking & real racing, sometimes the race on ovals admittedly can get a bit boring to watch but often the race isn't won until the last corner of the last lap.
Why not do something like restrict the maximum speed & make more overtaking possible on the circuits & ban all these gadgets like launch control.
The races would then come down to driver ability, car reliability & of course the power/aerodynamics of the car. With equal maximum speeds there is a good possibility that most cars will remain on the same lap for the majority of the race.
At present they would be aswell having qualifying & forgetting the race - as Schumacher usually qualifies first just now he could just be given the race win, if Barrichello does happen to outqualify him then we know he ain't going to be allowed to win so again give it to Schuminger. It would save the teams a fortune, eliminate the race risk to the drivers & give us a couple of extra hours free every second Sunday.
Schumacher sucks - when he wasn't in the best car a few years ago & couldn't win so easily he used to punt people off the track. Now the only real threat to him is his own teammate & he can't even race him fairly but let's the team do the work for him. Suppose it wouldn't look good if he punted his own team mate off the track now, would it?
Den
Couldn't imagine Prost or Senna letting each other past when they were team mates or Mansell & Picquet for that matter.
CART racing is much more enjoyable for overtaking & real racing, sometimes the race on ovals admittedly can get a bit boring to watch but often the race isn't won until the last corner of the last lap.
Why not do something like restrict the maximum speed & make more overtaking possible on the circuits & ban all these gadgets like launch control.
The races would then come down to driver ability, car reliability & of course the power/aerodynamics of the car. With equal maximum speeds there is a good possibility that most cars will remain on the same lap for the majority of the race.
At present they would be aswell having qualifying & forgetting the race - as Schumacher usually qualifies first just now he could just be given the race win, if Barrichello does happen to outqualify him then we know he ain't going to be allowed to win so again give it to Schuminger. It would save the teams a fortune, eliminate the race risk to the drivers & give us a couple of extra hours free every second Sunday.
Schumacher sucks - when he wasn't in the best car a few years ago & couldn't win so easily he used to punt people off the track. Now the only real threat to him is his own teammate & he can't even race him fairly but let's the team do the work for him. Suppose it wouldn't look good if he punted his own team mate off the track now, would it?
Den
13 May 2002, 07:34 PM
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Lets face it team sport or not if its not a "race" people will NOT watch it. Me especially, whats the point it was boring enough before now its pointless!!!
Oh and why does everyone support Ferrari everywhere the races are held? They are the Man U of the F1 world with fans to match!!
Oh and why does everyone support Ferrari everywhere the races are held? They are the Man U of the F1 world with fans to match!!
13 May 2002, 07:47 PM
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I may be in the minority but the amount of money Ferrari will gain by having both the drivers and constructors crown is huge. It is a team event and as such they will do what is required to obtain both titles, reduce each team to a single driver and equal power then you may have some racing.