toneh

iTrader: (1)

I'll amend my post then ,
Unless you are lucky like myself , Shaun , and my mate jay you're gonna have to have your car mapped for an induction kit Lol

Tony

ianbott

I'm no mapper and I don't know or claim to know anything about mapping but I really do fail to understand how letting the engine breath easier ie with a more free flowing air filter could possibly cause the engine to run any different! I would like to understand but I think it's beyond my feeble mind lol.
The way I understood it the MAF sees a flow of air and if flow of air increases the ECU increases the flow of fuel. Can't honestly see how that could cause a problem.
That said when I decide on which one to use I will be calling on the services of either Simon or Duncan.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

That is how it works mate , we're talking about , induction kits which alter the maf beyond the range of the ecus capabilities to adjust fueling accordingly or alter the air flow to such an extent that the maf sensor cannot read properly

Tony

ianbott

Yes but my OP was related to air flow in an induction kit with the same size internal pipe bore. How could the air flow ever go beyond the range of the standard MAF? Unless of course you are running big power.

My original interest was the fact i have fitted an induction kit and was curious as to peoples oppinions on map or not.

I have a friend who deals a lot with Toyotas and has a dyno dynamics R/R so will be getting the car on there when it is up and running again.

addi monster

iTrader: (6)

I pretty much could not understand how it could alter the readings so much until a saw it on the laptop myself, some induction kits alter the flow patern which stops the maf reading it correctly,

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

But it makes no instant adjustment on boost Tony. Only long term fuel trims from the closeloop instant adjustments. But because it is setup for the oe air filter setup it can adjust it totally wron now not on standard air filter.
Thats just the fuelling, you then have the boost, you have more air and it spools differently (overboost, under boost, fluctuates, surges).
Then you have the ignition advance which is current tuned for the standard fuelling but its no longer running that afr, the changed boost will also influence the ignition advance required and how quick the charge mix ignites and therefore when it needs sparking.

Admittedly the newage wrx is probably the most forgiving with a strong 2litre engine and small td04 turbo.

Simon

ianbott

Thansk for your input Simon, makes things a little clearer but never clear enough for my tiny mind lol, that's why i will be leaving this to the pros
Now the next question is who is better Simon or Duncan?????
Haha only kidding for me its a dessicion between O/S and ECUtek.

Shaun

I wouldn't disagree with regards to the above, but no one mentioned anything to do with a decat until you just.

Just mentioning it for clarity sakes.

But back to the induction kit shizzle.......

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

The problem that often occurs is the fact that no one has mentioned it has or hasnt been decatted, yet you can bet money on the fact that more than one person will read this thread and go and fit an induction kit to their already decatted wrx thinking its fine..
or not even consider the fact that they have an sti and therefore its not the same necessariliy as being discussed here. Also the other reoccurance is someone with an already mapped car sees this and decides therefore it is safe to change the airbox for an induction kit.

If you agree that if induction and decat are fitted then it needs mapping then you can see that by picturing the engine as a pump, where by making it more efficent on the in and the out effects the flow and therefore needs mapping that by altering one it will do the same just to a lesser amount.. so it is still outside the normal parameters for the map it is on just not as bad as if it were both induction and decat.

Simon

ianbott

Sorry should of been a bit clearer with my original post but the engine is an STi running the standard VF35 turbo with a full decat straight through exhaust and an induction kit.
My original question was just a question for my own peace of mind.

I know my engine needs a remap and until i can at least get it checked it wont even be getting run.

Thanka again.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

see the assumption its only the induction kit on a wrx lol...

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I
Totally agree on the fact that you are only seeing only half the story with l/v but there still is some boost factor in the higher part of l/v and taking my snap shot as an example , because it is pretty close ,even on higher boost it's not gonna deviate off the scale to a damaging extent
As you well know the bug ecu does a hell of a lot of work to try and keep things inline , and will let you know pretty quick when all is not well
Like I've said I can only go off my car and findings and I can 100% state none of my set ups resulted in , high / low boost issues / fueling closed or open / timing
As usuall I'm not being awkward , but it can't be just me and a mate that's lucky Simon

Tony

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Well i never , , no doubt he's gonna tell us he's running meth next lol

toneh

iTrader: (1)

O/s without a doubt

toneh

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=dynamix;10801128]VERY dangerous comments Tony - I 100% agree with Simon and from my experience also there is a need to re-examine the fueling on almost all cars. Sometimes the issues extend into boost control or ignition timing too.... Any or all of these could lead to VERY expensive rebuilds for the owners of the cars.

People reading your post may get the impression that you have some wider experience than just tinkering blindly with your car or those of a couple of mates. [/

Duncan get over it , no cars are getting blown up , you're not losing work
And it's wearing thin now about my so called blind tinkering
I've posted what I've done and my findings
And also said in my experience and my car

You commented on the 02 vs wideband thread and when I asked you if you've got or done a back to back comparisons (stock repositioned /re scaled O2 vs after market ) you never replied , had plenty to Say about it though

You've always got plenty to say about my methods and try and bring me down , but I never bring up about your methods do I ?

Tony

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

So you have checked them with detcans and boost gauge and wideband?

I just dont like assuming and would rather it was checked and op had the info that it should be checked at a minimum

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Tony, this isnt personal I just think it is very dangerous to comment and offer advice to users/owners on here without the experience to know whether what you are saying is right or not. Owners may not be able to tell.

Tuning by using the oe ecu knock control is not what I would recommend. Some cars remove timing for no det and others wont remove timing even if the thing is gradually killing itself. How would you know which extreme you have if not checking with det cans and knowing what you are listening for?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Guys I don't want to cover old ground again

I agree some cars will sort themselves out better than others
But I'm talking my car and my car only ( as I've stated ), and as you know the ecu on a bug is a very capable piece of kit
As for , w/b , det cans ect you know how I do my car and I know you don't agree but that's another story
As for people blowing cars up there's more posts on here about dodgy boost controllers , which in my opinion presents way more risk of potential engine damage
You know what I'm like guys unless I see it with my own eyes then I can only report what I see on my own car

Tony

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

... perhaps a caviat on your posts would explain to potential readers of your limited experience then. Reading your previous posts it would read contrary.

The bug ecu is not the best and has issues btw fwiiw.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

I dont recall talking with you in the past Tony so not going over old ground etc..

I agree you are just talking about your own car and your own finding but on a thread where someone else is asking whether their car would need mapping for any induction kit, therefore talking about your own car in response is insinuating they wont need a remap for it.. yet a minute ago you were saying your mates is okay too and that there are no car blowing up from it, therefore again insinuating others are fine so you are not just talking about your own car lol.

not that it matters as OP has now said his car is decatted as well lol

Simon

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Please read my first post , especially the bit were I said I must stress

I repeat I only say what I see , not what I'm told by a friend of a friend

And I've posted what I've seen on my car and I've seen the Same results on another bug and Shaun has seen the same at rcm
Just pointing out the facts
Being professional mappers could you explain why 1% of cars don't need a remap ?
Btw Duncan I never said the bug ecu was the best

Tony

ianbott

I think to sum this thread up and put an end to the bickering lol the final consensus is that the map should be checked after any modification and remapped where nessecary am I correct?
Cheers again Ian.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Any modifications that is worth doing is worth at least checking IMO. if there arent any changes to the map I am sure like me, most mappers will only charge a nominal fee for checking

Gigsy

It certainly makes sense to check that everything is still performing within tolerances. The bottom line is that changing the amount of air going in or the efficiency with which exhaust gases can be extracted alters the VE of the engine.

If you're only changing one item (e.g. just the induction kit, or just a decat) then any adjustments required are smaller and the ECU may be able to adjust itself accordingly without any damage occuiring BUT surely the whole point of making these mods is to make more power? In which case, why would you not want to have the map optimised?

To my mind, there are two schools of mod-ing, one is simply to bolt VTA DVs, induction kits and loud exhausts like a kid in a sweet shop. The other is to approach the problem with a bit of engineering guile and concentrate on making the engine perform optimally.... one makes noise, the other makes power IMHO.

As far as original question with regard to rescaling the MAF when fitting an induction kit, all I will say is this - knowing how much air is going in is absolutely key to making good and safe power and to do this, having a MAF that is correctly scaled is essential. Not that I'd bother fitting an induction kit, but if it were my car, I'd be re-scaling the MAF.

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

A friend of mine used to have a Bugeye WRX. He bought it and thought it was running great. It literally had an induction kit, and centre cat removal pipe.

We then got talking about how many miles to a tank, and how he feels that some cars pull away from him when they shouldn't.

It had never been remapped or even looked at. Alarm bells ringing I told him to get over to mine to refit the standard panel filter assembly and reset the ECU.

Low and behold, over the course of the next few weeks he was getting much better mpg, and he said the car felt a lot more powerful..

Enough evidence for me! Heck I've even had poor running issues when the lid on the panel filter box wasn't completely sealed!

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Mmmm pretty much what I said in my first post ?

Gigsy

Yes and no... we both said that the ECU may be able to cope without doing it but I said I'd still get the MAF re-scaled and you said you wouldn't bother, or did I read that wrong?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Read again mate ( you won't get any gains without a remap )

Tony

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

surely though if you fit an induction kit,its to gain more bhp and to get this it really needs mapping.
so whats the point of fitting it if your not going to get it mapped too.

Gigsy

Plagiarist!