I was raised protestant in Scotland, the catholics went to chapel.

Only my opinion but, religion is at the root of most evil the whole world over.

 

No, I think you will find that it's some people who claim to be religious that are at the route of 'most evil the world over'.

Religion is not to blame, people are

I'm really not a fan of aggressive atheism all to well demonstrated by some (including yourself) on this thread.

 

Well put Martin.

I agree religion is not to blame but people, just as 'marriage' is not to blame for the pain, bitterness, anger, loneliness that people experience that were in a loving relationship. The real issue with marriage is the people involved in it not marriage itself.

Also can we settle this once & for all we need to separate what people define as religion & true Christianity, it is not 'religion' but rather a spiritual journey of discovery by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Let me say this,

Exactly with this sort of reply is what causes rifts and fighting.

 

Completely agree and its good to see people on here with that understanding.

To John Banks, faith is not an ongoing continuation of blind belief and hope, I don't believe Christianity could sustain on that alone. It does not have laws and consequences if you choose not to believe, unlike Islam for example to keep it going, in fact as I wrote a few years ago in the rather lengthy and heated Steven Hawkins thread, faith should be given a huge amount more credit than it receives. In the Bible it is described as the "shield" in which Christians defend themselves.

Tubbytommy has already stated how Christians have 'given up all good things in life' and I know exactly what he is trying to say. It is not a bed of roses and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves, as humanly it is very difficult resist natural desires and temptations such as womanising, drinking, the love of money etc etc. These are often things that are used to try and trip up Christians and unfortunately sometimes they succeed I cant deny that but far more often Christians hold firm. Just as strong attacks from an enemy require strong defence so does faith need to be strong. Faith based on a frail hope such as habit or maintaining identity is not strong and would crumble. So the question should be how could this 'faith' possibly be strong enough, sustaining the Christian church if there was no God?

 

There is no God nor ever was. This is your belief.. There are many Gods humans believe in. Belief again..


Only in ones head or heart do they continue....

 

SRSport, the bible contains myriad consequences for unbelievers, whether you start at the front or back. The fear of hell has been used by the church from the beginning, even though some modern churches try to sugar coat it.

I don't find it hard to understand that faith in the Christian message along with fear of pre-enlightenment man (very much including the lake of fire and teeth gnashing as consequences) plus a clustering of political power around it could sustain its existence over two millennia. With Islam having two thirds of the time and presently a faster growth rate, does that make its faith based on more or less of a frail hope than Christianity? Since they appear to be mutually exclusive unless you water each down to meaninglessness, does an assessment of time and numbers make the underlying claims of either verifiable?

 

You never know!

Les

 

The idea of fear of Hell being used to sustain the Christian faith does not make sense to me and it does not offer a viable explanation as to why people have faith in God. If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Hell so you wouldn't need to worry about it anyway. If there is a fear of Hell that is faith in itself. Have faith in Hell and you have faith in Heaven.

What I believe does trigger people to look for 'answers' when Hell is mentioned, is that something deep inside them sits very uneasily when talking about it - and for those that don't believe in Jesus come to that. Even noticing billboards and prompting forum comments looking for like minded individuals to side with is an example of how reactions take place within people where Jesus and Hell is concerned. Look at the comments I received in the Steven Hawkings thread, I would never receive comments of that nature talking about anything else. I wasn't telling people that they must be Christians or criticising in anyway, merely stating what I believe. Yet when I mention the name of Jesus something prompted a torrent of highly offensive and obscene abuse aimed at me (those posts have been deleted by mods unfortunately).

God does not intend to attract followers through the use of fear, completely the opposite, but at the same time it is most definitely something that needs addressing and for us to be aware of.

(and please before anyone says Mark Wolford's actions are not a demonstration of faith)

 

You can talk with me about hell all you like, I'm not uneasy. The idea of the mere name of Jesus carrying power that agitates all the demons is certainly biblical, but only carries that excitement in the minds of Christians. The atheists are probably getting excited about a genocidal, racist, sexist, homophobic, infanticidal, bloodthirsty, vengeful, jealous, petty, inconsistent and immoral tyrant who is the god described by the bible, and annoyed that the effect of a belief in such a god makes some of his followers an insecure bunch who have thrown away their own logical processes, don't think for themselves, subjugate others to the same and a few good works aside pull the world back to the dark ages. They don't respect this religion as a guardian or guider in morals.

God does not intend to attract followers through the use of fear, he just has them killed or tortured instead, gets his murderers to write a book for everyone to read to be... in fear. There is most certainly a push effect from hell avoidance theme in the bible, I would think as much as there is a pull effect. There is rarely just a carrot and never a stick.

When you read the bible, try reading it with no preconceived ideas, from an outside perspective. Reread the bits you read once because you thought you should read the whole thing and see what picture of god you get when you do so. Ponder the difficult bits. When you do that, what do you really see? Atheist encouraging Christian to read his own bible more, I'm obviously demonised...

 

whilst i agree with that sentiment wholly,

the old testament really is horrendous, ive read snipets years ago that i found disgusting!!

its changed days now imo. if you go to a service, the threat of hell or any evil consequences of non-beleiving just isnt passed on.
yes they spend a great deal of time trying to convince the congregation to repent and follow the church, but its done with referrance to pleasantries in life. helping communities, charitable events, building safe communities ect ect.

and while im not in the slightest bit interested in religion of any kind, the sentiment behind it is an attempt to encourage the best of human character traits.

religion also provides solice and comfort for many in dark times in there life - and aslong as its not enforced on people, then so be it.

now this is what ive experienced recently through services at the numerous christenings ect ive had to endure this year - its possible not the same across the board, but just what ive experienced recently.

but ill likely not be back to church ever again, even in the end. organs to science, body to the animals

 

Ok, that's sorted, then. What about the soul, though?

 

soul?

dont belive in souls tbh, so thats that sorted lol

 

Yes, all sorted LOL.

 

And all evidence points towards religion being invented by people. So there is no such thing as religion except in people's heads, and no fixed thing from which to draw an exact definition or understanding of religion. It is subjective and open to interpretation. The idea itself is subjective, as is the following interpretation, so the variation of what religion is to different people is huge, and both their 'working' understanding and how they act upon it is down to yet more factors which aren't fixed or constant in the way that many people view 'religion'.

Let's not defend religion. Let's defend the people, I agree. But that also means you can't praise religion as being some lovely thing that is responsible for good.

 

let me tell you about the soul!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18TLHhhHZCA

 

LOL nice one, hodgy0_2. I was gonna do that, but my Youtube was not behaving itself

 

tbh people can do as they please, whether others like it or agree or not.

modern day christianity is a far cry from the days of the bible. they can say it does good, or you can say it cant be responsible for good.

neither really holds credance to me, as long as its not aggressivley promoted on those not interested then does it matter?

 

I believe a stone has weight - Gravity

I believe a human body will die - Blood, oxygen

There is no forgiving - Confessing a sin

Religion is the evil, believed by humans

 

Me personally I don't believe in god, I could be wrong there very might be a god but there is no way to know.

I do believe there was a Jesus but I don't think he was the son of god.
When Jesus walked the earth it was a time when most people had no proper education
in today's times people can watch documentary's on tv or read newspapers and books are mass produced so everyone who wants to read a certain book can read it and people go to school ,college and university all these help to give people a better understanding of everything.
back in the times of Jesus people did not have all these thing I am not
saying people back in them times were stupid but just undereducated.

I think jesus was a fraud in my opinion he was a magician that was very clever at doing magic tricks.

Jesus turned water into wine - well david blane turned a homeless guys cup of coffee into a cup of coin's !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDpgfSheOIo

Jesus walked on water - did he now well so did dynamo on the river thames !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyVdH2Kxp2M

In todays world if we seen a guy doing a very good magic trick then he told us he was the son of god sent to earth to guide the people we would laugh are asses off and put him in the looney bin or form a cult with him which would later be raided by the police for them doing crazy things.

What I am trying to say is today we would be less likely be tricked into thinking the magician is the son of god because we are educated to think and question what we don't understand
Back in the times of Jesus people were not.

I also believe later on religion became a tool by people of power who wanted to control
the people and get them to do what they wanted.
" do what we say or you will go to hell " or " do what we say and you will be rewarded in heaven "

religion has been used to start more wars and to kill more people than any other single thing in the world over the last 2000 years and that is a fact ! ( other than natural causes )

the Christian religion is different today as the people are educated and religion is very peaceful but there is other religions that certain people are fanatical with there beliefs.

The way I see it I could be wrong with my beliefs but also I could be right about the whole thing there is no way to know.
But what I do believe is if believing brings you hope then yes you should believe as it brings something special to you but me I am happy being a atheist

 

You don't really know that however much you protest. It cannot be proved one way or the other and as ever it is down to the individual what he believes.

You will spend your life wondering what is the real truth and when you are confronted with your own demise is it quite likely that you will ask His help...just in case!

Les

 

Whose help?

 

Even Moses faced opposition in other people performing similar acts of God - the Pharaoh's chief priests were able to perform the same or similar tricks, where people took solace in reassurance that this was not an all powerful Being beyond their understanding or control, in exactly the same way you are doing now. Do you know how David Blain et el perform their tricks? Can you understand or explain all of them?

We are far more indoctrinated now in the way of life that has no place for God that I am hardly surprised that people would reject such a claim that the son of God had come down to earth. However more than that, unless it was the second coming then Christians would reject it as well as this is not in accordance with the Bible unlike when Jesus actually did come down.

I agree that religion is used for control and power, the Bible makes that clear as well. I also agree that religion has been used to start war and for doing a lot that is evil, again the Bible would support this too. The important thing to remember is not to confuse the Christian faith in God with religion but people will as it far more convenient that way. Im sure that this has actually been mentioned already...

 

Gods,

Leslie, you've raised a good point. The way we live and with the medical technology that we have death seems so far removed from our everyday living that believing in God and being obedient to his will is just far too inconvenient in todays society and can be readily glossed over until it really matters.

 

Yes...good point and at the base of what I said of course.

Les

 

One definition of indoctrination:

I'd reflect that accusation back at most Christianity. By using faith and rejecting reason and evidence, it is the antithesis of the enlightenment which I would argue pulled men out of fear and darkness controlled by religious belief, instead subjecting their world to reason.

You could argue that a stance like that is the foundation for a delusion.

Definition of delusion:

The Biblical picture of god is warmongering and bloodthirsty when I read it.

I don't see a connection between proximity with death and belief in god, since I deal with death a lot but do not believe in god. In my case it was more experience of death and disease as well as becoming more independent and educated in my thinking that made me look for a higher standard of evidence to justify my former belief in god.

Blind obedience to a book which describes a god of poor moral values is not a matter of inconvenience but informed choice.

 

You have to apply what I said to how you might feel as your own death approaches assuming that you realise what is happening.

Les

 

That position worries me a bit. Isn't it falling back on an insurance policy before death, on the off chance? Wouldn't we be better to evaluate our position when in good health with time to look at the available information and when we are thinking clearly?

I had a dream the other day that I was in an aeroplane (passenger jet) but the view was amazing as the pilot was showboating around an amazing fort of some description set below cliffs, but on a low approach to them, he pulled up too late and it was inevitable we were going to crash and with an impact into cliffs inevitably die. It felt real even though the reality of showboating in a passenger jet around a coastal obstruction, and getting a view of it are very odd, but dreams are like that. I woke up, but I remember on awakening that the thought of turning to god was not something I was considering because it would be dishonest and motivated through irrational fear. If I was dying slowing would chaplaincy input be welcomed to convert my fear into belief? Would my funeral reflect any sense of religious hope? I believe the honest answer to be no to both, if using all the thought I've put into it already my answer is no, why should it change when confronted by fear and near certainty of death?

BTW I'm not reading too much into dreams, but it was interesting to remember the point that I wasn't intending to fall back on an insurance policy at the last minute, even though I can't extrapolate decisions I'd make in dreams to real life.

If I hold out to the end without giving into something I really don't or can't believe then that is the ideal outcome in my eyes.

 

Or maybe its because God in his complete grace gives people one last try at the point they will be most receptive. Perhaps its not so much a conscious decision on our part.

For me it was like that. God made himself known to me rather than me waking up one day deciding to be a Christian as though it was some life style choice (for me this is what religion is). Fortunately it wasn't just before my death though.

 

As I said earlier,you have to go with what you honestly believe yourself of course.

Les