I have blue ndx all round!! Also have dot 5.1 fluid when I ran the track day with Cos!! Godspeed discs! And judder after end of lap 2!

 

good post and topic ! I was going to try blues but not so sure now; newage brakes are really poor and mine can fade whilst hardly even being spirited. Looks like conversion time!

 

If you on 4pots, and gonna do a track day, I wouldn't waste ya money....

 

I agree, very good informative post!

I was going to get NDX next, but think i'll stick with the tried & tested PF Z reated!

 

WRX Wagon, standard 4 pot, 345 bhp.

After 2 20 minute sessions at Japfest yesterday Bluestuff worked fine as far I was concerned. Pads were bedded in beforehand. Brakes went off for a lap or so near the end of session 1 but came back. Second session spot on.

A couple of mates running Bluestuff on the same sessions one with an evo6 on standard Brembos and the other in an EVO Wagon running K Sport. Both newly installed and bedded in beforehand had exactly the same experience with exception of the EVO6 which juddered for a lap on the first session.

 

I have used EBC Bluestuff NDX pads for not far off a year now in both my road car and my Pro Class Time Attack racecar.....they have performed very well in the most aggressive environment possible and perfect in my BMW 330d daily drive too.

In either the Race car or my BMW I've done well in excess of 500 very hard laps on these pads on numerous UK circuits, donnington, Silverstone, Snetterton, Knockhill, Brands, Oulton etc. Initially I was on Alcon 6 pots, latterly on KSports 356/330s with factory BMW brakes on my daily drive.

I have yet to experience fade at all on these pads.

I did note on one or two trackdays a slight judder under braking during the first 2 or 3 corners on the 1st lap but this cleared and they gave consistent stopping lap after lap.

When on the track they take a bit of bedding in....3 or 4 15 min sessions with cooldown in between....and they will smoke a little too....thats normal....for road use they should be bedded in within a few days....

The problems reported on the stock 4 pots I can only believe is the brakes exceeding there working temperature range....if your out on track in a high performance car (like a subaru turbo) then you will need to either limit the number of laps on track, upgrade from the factory 4 pots or install dedicated cooling lines to keep the brake temps down...or drive slower!

 

I use the NDXs on my Subaru for normal road use and they are superb even when cold. For track days i have a wee mark 1 mx5 and use carbontech pads and these are absolutely awesome.

 

Hi, thanks for sharing your experiences & I'm pleased to hear you've had no problems

However as you appear to be running an uprated brake set-up, I don't feel your findings are relevant to understanding the issues the standard 4 pot set-up has. (Which is where there seems to be more problems).

I am however quite stunned about your comments regarding how to rectify the problems.

You say I should:

1: limit the number of laps - With all due respect this is absolutely absurd mate. While I appreciate you are alot more experienced on track than me, are you seriously suggesting I limit my laps to less than 2!!!!!!! - This is an impreza & if it can't do 6 miles, I may as well give up now and take the bus..........

2: Upgrade the 4 pots - This is something I will definately look into, but as some others have found, a different pad/disc combination has worked for them (on the OEM 4 pot set up) - if that's the case (& the same combination works for me), then I see no reason to go to all that expense. I will maybe do 1 or 2 trackdays per year, but it's still an option I'm considering.

3: Install dedicated cooling lines - You're the first to mention this - but are you aware this is my road car, not a track car. I'm sure I couldn't have been doing more than 110mph (if that!) down the main straight at Snetterton - if my car can't handle braking without issues from that speed & the temerature generated, then please see my answer to point 1 above!

4: Drive slower - Are you for real mate. Believe me, I'm not setting any records out there as it is. If that was a genuine answer to help rectify my juddering issues, please see my answer to point 1 above!

I will being doing some tests over the next couple of months on a couple of different pad/disc combinations. I will post my findings as soon as these tests are completed.

Thanks again to all that have shared their experiences so far, please keep them coming

 

What discs are you running on the 4 pots mate?

That's interesting that you had no fade with the extra power aswell.

 

I have them on my 2004 sti with brembos and they did the job at brands, done 3 track days and still going strong.

 

I do have experience of running NDX blues on factory standard brakes on my BMW330d, which I feel is relevant to the discussion....you are quite right though, I have no experience of stock 4 pots fitted with NDX pads....I do have experience of 4 pots on a previous track car i owned, they were not up to the job in all honesty and were upgraded to KSports but I can understand your reluctance to upgrade yourself if you don't do much track work and given that others report good results on stock 4 pots with NDX pads.

The comments I made in respect of finding a solution were generically aimed at not exceeding the working temperature of a braking system (as appears to be the case in some instances) rather than your specific issue...and I still standby those comments...i.e. if your cooking your brakes then do one of the following:- less laps/shorter sessions, upgrade, install cooling or use the brakes less (i.e. go slower)

Its not difficult to cook brakes on track and you would be surprised how often I've seen it happen even with uprated big brake kits....If you spend 20 mins on track in a heavy car (>1250kg) that is a long time and more often than not you will be at or approaching the limit of most factory setups (sometime less than 20 mins if you are driving hard or on a track that is heavy on brakes).

In your specific case I agree that if you cant do more than 2 laps there is clearly an issue....
As others report reasonable success with 4 pots and NDX pads then I can only think of the following reasons for your particular trouble...

1 The pads are not fully bedded in.
2. The discs have a problem (if the discs have distorted due to heat then they tend to stay distorted and will likely judder under heavy road use).
3. Your have a "bad" set of NDX's (should be ruled out if Andy from EBC has sent you another NDX set out).
4. The pistons in your calipers are sticking.
5. your calipers are flexing due to high heat loads
6. You have a build-up of friction material on the discs.
7. something else e.g. wheel bearing.

In my experience the blues did need extended bedding so generating higher than normal heat loads initially....

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if you had stayed out on track (if safe to do so); as if the cause were a build-up of friction material on the disc then you may find the juddering clears once the brakes are fully up to temperature after a few laps and the deposits cleaned off.....this is what I think I maybe getting on my BMW....its fine all the way to the track, then on the 1st/2nd lap I have light judder in a couple of braking areas then once the deposits are cleared the brakes are fine.

It would also be useful to know if the juddering stops when you drive home from the track....

Hope you find a solution soon....

 

Popeye, a rather eloquent post given the response you received to your informative first post!

Andy

 

I've been using yellow stuff, and while they were great on the road, they faded pretty quickly at Silverstone the other day.

Had wanted to try the blue stuff to see if they would cope better, but after reading this, I'm not sure I should.

Have always been a big fan of EBC, so may still give them a go, but seriously wasn't a fan of the fade as I was heading at speed towards a corner.

 

See, fade can be a good thing, bet you went through that corner faster than ever before! Hahahaha

 

I have 330mm ksports with k sport pad at the min, i sometimes get vibration through the wheel but it probbaly just pad deposits on the rotor faces, I am looking to replace the pads and give the ebc pads a go I think

 

Been using the EBC BLUESTUFF NDX PADS now for the last 850 odd miles and my honest opinion is they are very good.

I went from the EBC Yellowstuff pads all round and the EBC BLUESTUFF NDX PADS are a massive leap forward.

I had the DS2500 prior to the Yellowstuff pads and were good but personally I find the EBC BLUESTUFF NDX PADS better all round for cold bite and once warm the EBC BLUESTUFF NDX PADS will continue to bite.

I run DOT 5.1 , braided lines on the OE Brembo 4 pot set up but with Brembo Sport (drilled) rotas all round.

I have been keeping an eye on the wear in the discs. All I can see from my see up is slightly more brake dust deposits in and around the drilled areas. But nothing a good blast of air or a pressure wash cannot sort out.
Used my infrared temp gauge and the discs seem not hotter than the DS2500's would make the discs.

Cold bite - straight away you feel you have a pedal.

Warm bite - I have got to the point that I can more or less just get away with just flexing my toes to brake so to speak as the bite from warm is great. You know you have used the brakes hard and when they are hot are they tend to make the noise carbon ceramics do on a race car. Sounds nice to me but thats my personal choice.

I like these pads so much I want to put a set on my Ford Focus.

Steve

 

ive been using the new bluestuff pads since last august i think on subaru 4pots and the only trouble ive had is down to sticking pistons in the caliper.
i also had some juddering but once i fitted some new calipers from godspeed brakes all the problems i had went away and i now have spot on brakes.
so you have to ask yourself, how many people are using the new bluestuff pads in calipers that need a good servicing and faulting the pad.

 

This info is being placed on the EBC website this week after I was shown thru Ian Godney that bedding in, really is the problem and we need drivers to have this info.

EBC Brakes installed an £80,000 heat scorching line in 2010 and from Jan 2011 all EBC Bluestuff and Yellowstuff are passed thru this process. The process involves a tunnel with multiple infra-red tubes which pump the surface temperature on the pads over 600C within seconds and toast or scorch the surface. The process is called “heat searing”. The process burns off some of the surface volatiles and accelerates the bed in process of the pads by carbonising the upper surface layer for a few thousandths of its depth only.

In street usethe brakes will feel strong from first install and gradually get better as they settle in. This bedding in will STILL take 200-300 miles of street driving or even longer if disc/rotor surfaces are not smooth and flat. The BEST way at any pad change is to have your rotors skimmed or surfaced on a Pro Cut on car brake lathe. Many people take the low cost option and do not do this but this only prolongs the bed in time. A decent used disc can even be BETTER than a new disc as it has gone through its own settling where the micro structure changes so don’t avoid the Pro Cut route. On this site (use the Google search engine at the top left) you can find where to get your rotors Pro Cut

On the Track(especially in track-day use which is the toughest test on standard brakes anywhere) and especially when fitting new discs bed in times will be longer and during the bed in process some vibration may be noticed.

This vibration can come from four things.

1) First if your vehicle has hub run out and your discs are not running true after a period of 3000-4000 miles street driving the discs or rotors will wear a thin spot and pump the caliper pistons open and closed in braking causing the vibration. So if you have rotors that have seen some street use and then USING THOSE SAME ROTORS on the track you get vibration, the discs need to be Pro Cut skimmed.
2) Second if you have “Decent” condition discs AND HAVE NOT SUFFERED ANY VIBRATION and have been running other pads that contain carbon granules, these will certainly have left a grey glaze on your rotors as a deposit. It might be regular grey glaze all over or seen in patches but it will NOT be the natural silver colour of the bare virgin discs iron. Skimming on a Pro Cut is the real cure but a few minutes with some fine sandpaper can deliver some results if you are at the track.
3) HOWEVER if you have fitted NEW discs and new pads and get vibration from the start of your track-day it will likely be due to the inadequate bedding time of the new systemand you need to persevere. Drivers have reported blue contact bands in the centre of the rotor which shows clearly that full contact has not been achieved when they experience this vibration. For those of you that do not believe this to be true, the test is to change the pads to another manufacturers product on the track-day and see for yourself.
4) We have left this till last as it is the least common. Not all discs are equal. There are good better and best in everything in life and cast iron discs are no exception. EBC Brakes produce many of their discs in a UK foundry and also machine them in the UK. For Europe over 98% of EBC discs sold are cast and machined in the UK. EBC Brakes are also launching in September 2011 a range of HIGH CARBON brake discs for aggressive driving styles. Many OEM builders of quality cars actually USE HIGH CARBON IRON already when the car is built. EBC will be one of the first to offer an aftermarket range in HIGH CARBON for the more discerning customer starting late 2011.Other than that you pay your money and you take your choice.

DO BRAKE DISCS WARP ????

We have heard this so many times it gets tiresome saying the same things but the answer is NO they do not, they either accumulate tar or glaze deposits or wear thin spots and suffer DTV (Disc thickness variation) both of which are cured and ONLY cured by the Pro Cut on car lathe or buying of new discs. One car in seven has hub run out that causes this DTV to happen so don’t blame the products, it s your car. !!!!

Hope this helps you guys

Cheers Andy

 

I thought the same

 

EBC Bluestuff NDX - best pads I've ever used.

In the past I've had to put up with noisy pads, dusty pads, pads that don't work when cold etc with no pad ideal for both everyday road use and track use. PF Z compound were probably my fav before the NDX came out. The NDX ticks boxes no other pad does IMHO.

NDX work from cold, perfectly quiet, low dusting - ideal for everyday use. On track I've yet to find the limit, predictable braking and easy to modulate. That said, I always use an adequate braking setup anyhow (decent calipers, decent discs).

NDX are outselling all other brands by quite some margin. Customers who come to us for advice usually end up buying our Kevlar pads for road use or NDX if they want a little more (or a lot ). Previously the majority of people were choosing PF pads.

Pads have moved on over the years and the NDX have set the benchmark in a true road and track pad.

 

Too add my review to this thread: Recently upgraded to Godspeed grooved discs all round with braided lines, dot 5 fluid using with brembo calipers on newage sti. Had this combo with different pads and no problems. But with the Ndx blue today doing some spirited driving with a few hard, long stops the ndx blue pads caused severe overheating on the front with clouds of visible smoke and awful smell to go with. This has not been the first time but was the most severe so far. Not too impressed and can only wonder what they are doing to my relatively new discs

 

My blue ndx have been on for 12 months and been superb, never had any judder like i had with the mintex extreme i used before. Best pads i,ve ever used tbh. Having said that i,m going to try the orange pads next as there meant to be beter still.

 

I have exactly the same set up and experienced exactly the same as you, I have had the pads fade numerous times, and find them very inconsistent.

 

My brother had a set of front and rears made for his B7 RS4 earlier on this year. they were fitted to his already used discs and had approx 500 odd road miles on them before our trip to the ring in September. On his first lap about half way round the pads totally dissapeared so he backed off for a few corners, after this they were breaking spot on and hardly felt any fde for the rest of our time at the Ring.
He still has them on the car which has done approx 4000 miles with them nd he swears by them and will be replacing them with another set when required.

Granted its not on a Subaru 4 pot setup but thought it would be useful feedback none the less.

Graeme

 

I have heard that they need to be really well bedded in and will almost feel like they are about to fail, and then come good - like F1 tyres. TBH, I'd be much happier with something more consistent that I could trust once they have had a fairly routine bedding in period - DS2500 or some old fashioned mintex

 

Ive had mine fitted for a good 6 months now and im pleased with them, I notice on the road if i brake from motorway speed i can notice a bit of vibration through the wheel, I find taking the car out for a good b road blast that this sorts the problem out

 

I think you guys may be right that they need to be well warmed up first before doing hard stops?

 

I changed from Godspeed 335mm kit with the standard 4 pot and DS2500's to Ksport 330mm and Bluestuff and wish I hadnt. I dont know if it the calipers that are weaker or if it is the pads but braking is definately not as good. I will be changing back to DS2500 soon to see if they are any better. I have used the DS2500 for the last few years but read good things about the Bluestuff so thought I would give them a go, have to say I have been dissapointed by the performance and the dust is awful.

 

i didn't have a good experience with blue stuff pads but that may have been my discs. Running carbotech now and will be sticking with them, so, much better than anything else i have used!

 

Seems strange how people can get these to fade with a few stops yet there good for track work in a 6 to 700bhp time attack car... I can honestly say mine have been superb on the road and ive pushed them hard at times. Mine were a free trial set from Andy Freeman and on my experience would buy blues or orange next time...