Williams Motorsport meets EngineMapper the great modification test mule
This is a fantastic, informative thread. Big, big thanks to both EngineMapper and WMS for all your efforts!
Leeturbo, EngineMapper, I've just spent two weeks trying to work out which size injectors would suit for a progressive step-wise upgrade to 310-320bhp with maximum drivability on my Newage WRX. You've easily answered my question. I'm off to find a set of used Sti 550cc pinks. Thanks. 
Sam
Leeturbo, pinks would be ideal for this setup. I wanted to test the validity of modified injectors on the newage cars. I've already mapped a number of cars that have the earlier type side feed yellows which have been modified with very unimpressive results. So in short, 550 pinks are ideal and the original ECU would run and drive as standard on these injectors. It just doesn't cope as well with much bigger injectors.
Sam
This is a fantastic, informative thread. Big, big thanks to both EngineMapper and WMS for all your efforts!
Leeturbo, EngineMapper, I've just spent two weeks trying to work out which size injectors would suit for a progressive step-wise upgrade to 310-320bhp with maximum drivability on my Newage WRX. You've easily answered my question. I'm off to find a set of used Sti 550cc pinks. Thanks.
Sam
Leeturbo, EngineMapper, I've just spent two weeks trying to work out which size injectors would suit for a progressive step-wise upgrade to 310-320bhp with maximum drivability on my Newage WRX. You've easily answered my question. I'm off to find a set of used Sti 550cc pinks. Thanks.
Sam
So I thought I'd go out for a hoon tonight after our discussions about dynos and get some real world figures and on the road AIT readings.
Ambient temperature was 11c and I was able to start each run with an AIT of 20c so this was the dyno run result:
On a dyno run in 2nd I would see the AIT rise to around 28c max. So I had a go at doing some runs all the way up the gears. Starting at 20c again I would ultimately see 48-55c at the end of a run through the gears.
I then had a go at some 1/4 mile runs, as my road dyno allows me to collect this data:
1/4mile = 12.871s @ 110.94mph (Std WRX = 14.3 PPP = 13.7)
Speeds were:
0-60 = 4.305s (Std WRX = 5.5 PPP = 4.8) +22% improvement
0-100 = 10.603s (Std WRX = 15.9 PPP = 14.1) +33%
Passing speeds were:
30-50 = 1.873s (Std WRX = 2.4 PPP = 2) +22%
40-60 = 1.584s (Std WRX = 2.6 PPP = 2.3) +39%
50-70 = 2.404s (Std WRX = 3.5 PPP = 2.9) +32%
60-80 = 2.721s (Std WRX = 3.8 PPP = 3.2) +29%
Generally I'm very pleased with the results so far, i've never done a properly timed 1/4 mile and it is only running with budget tyres currently.
Graham
Ambient temperature was 11c and I was able to start each run with an AIT of 20c so this was the dyno run result:
On a dyno run in 2nd I would see the AIT rise to around 28c max. So I had a go at doing some runs all the way up the gears. Starting at 20c again I would ultimately see 48-55c at the end of a run through the gears.
I then had a go at some 1/4 mile runs, as my road dyno allows me to collect this data:
1/4mile = 12.871s @ 110.94mph (Std WRX = 14.3 PPP = 13.7)
Speeds were:
0-60 = 4.305s (Std WRX = 5.5 PPP = 4.8) +22% improvement
0-100 = 10.603s (Std WRX = 15.9 PPP = 14.1) +33%
Passing speeds were:
30-50 = 1.873s (Std WRX = 2.4 PPP = 2) +22%
40-60 = 1.584s (Std WRX = 2.6 PPP = 2.3) +39%
50-70 = 2.404s (Std WRX = 3.5 PPP = 2.9) +32%
60-80 = 2.721s (Std WRX = 3.8 PPP = 3.2) +29%
Generally I'm very pleased with the results so far, i've never done a properly timed 1/4 mile and it is only running with budget tyres currently.
Graham
I think the road dyno converts the wheel HP to flywheel HP, as the carweight etc. tre size etc. are entered into the programme beforethe power run ... at least on ECUTek s/ware after mapping they are.
Thread Starter
Engine Specialist
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 554
Likes: 1
From: Wrexham, North Wales
The road dyno throws out a wheel bhp and torque figure. I then use the Dyno Dynamics standard transmission loss figures to convert from wheel to flywheel.
So 275.2bhp at the wheels converts to 352.8bhp at the flywheel, using a transmission loss of 22% which is fairly standard on a UK 5 speed Impreza.
Graham
So 275.2bhp at the wheels converts to 352.8bhp at the flywheel, using a transmission loss of 22% which is fairly standard on a UK 5 speed Impreza.
Graham
Great thread!
I'm particularly interested in the ported standard / tubular headers difference. I'm at (or should be at) the borderline where the extra flow of tubular becomes advantageous. MD321H turbo, but currently running on Harvey ported + wrapped headers and Harvey uppipe. This is on a classic, with K&N 57i, Samco inlet, hybrid fmic, 550 injectors, Walbro 255, forged 2.0, 3" decat.
Right now it manages only 355bhp/305lbft on the Zen dyno, mapped by Paul, and tubular headers may be the next step.
Andy
I'm particularly interested in the ported standard / tubular headers difference. I'm at (or should be at) the borderline where the extra flow of tubular becomes advantageous. MD321H turbo, but currently running on Harvey ported + wrapped headers and Harvey uppipe. This is on a classic, with K&N 57i, Samco inlet, hybrid fmic, 550 injectors, Walbro 255, forged 2.0, 3" decat.
Right now it manages only 355bhp/305lbft on the Zen dyno, mapped by Paul, and tubular headers may be the next step.
Andy
I'm at (or should be at) the borderline where the extra flow of tubular becomes advantageous. MD321H turbo, but currently running on Harvey ported + wrapped headers and Harvey uppipe. This is on a classic, with K&N 57i, Samco inlet, hybrid fmic, 550 injectors, Walbro 255, forged 2.0, 3" decat.
You might want to check injector sizing first if you want to go further up the power scale.
E.g.: http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
Sam
Andy, I'm no expert but ... could it be that you're at the limit of your 550 injectors?
You might want to check injector sizing first if you want to go further up the power scale.
E.g.: http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
Sam
You might want to check injector sizing first if you want to go further up the power scale.
E.g.: http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
Sam
Andy
What a great read so far!
Well done to you both for taking on such a project!
Interesting that you can predict/ measure 1/4 times on the dyno, as some modifications can sometimes change the way the power is developed and where in the rev range. ie a tune yielding a max figure of 310 hp can sometimes be faster than a 330 tune depending on where the torque and power is made. Some people don't get this sometimes, would be interesting if you could exhibit this...
Well done to you both for taking on such a project!
Interesting that you can predict/ measure 1/4 times on the dyno, as some modifications can sometimes change the way the power is developed and where in the rev range. ie a tune yielding a max figure of 310 hp can sometimes be faster than a 330 tune depending on where the torque and power is made. Some people don't get this sometimes, would be interesting if you could exhibit this...
Interesting that you can predict/ measure 1/4 times on the dyno, as some modifications can sometimes change the way the power is developed and where in the rev range. ie a tune yielding a max figure of 310 hp can sometimes be faster than a 330 tune depending on where the torque and power is made. Most people don't get this most of the time, would be interesting if you could exhibit this...
. I too would love a way for this to be exhibited........I've a few people I'd like to show it to
Last edited by BLU; Mar 14, 2014 at 09:02 PM.
Graham, can you do a back to back on an induction kit open and an induction kit heat shielded, as most people seem to think they just suck in hot air, and would like to know as ive looked at shielding mine off on this basis, but ive also read that it doesnt make much difference??
Interesting thread by the way, i will be keeping up to date with it as you add info.
Interesting thread by the way, i will be keeping up to date with it as you add info.
Graham, can you do a back to back on an induction kit open and an induction kit heat shielded, as most people seem to think they just suck in hot air, and would like to know as ive looked at shielding mine off on this basis, but ive also read that it doesnt make much difference??
Interesting thread by the way, i will be keeping up to date with it as you add info.
Interesting thread by the way, i will be keeping up to date with it as you add info.
Would be a good one though
Andy
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Herts
well -
SO impressed with Scooby net. Saved me getting scammed. Got a great deal on a brake disc and pad set that seem to have been running in nicely (until the standard engine blew) from www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
thank you Ian.
Now that I need the engine doing, I have decided to use the great combo of Andy and Graham and will sending my car up to them on a low loader to have the following works done....
Semi forged pistons and rods, ground crank etc etc in a rebuilt engine from Andys stocks...
Matched with the following upgrades...
NGK7 plugs,
Shimmed oil pump spring
Cambelt
VF35 turbo upgrade
EM 750cc injectors
Cosworth or Pro R air filter
Steel gaskets all round ofcourse
Header ex manifold (WMS will describe the one im sure)...
So I am hoping to see my car back in a while throwing out about 300bhp (wish I could afford the ecu upgrade) and will be sure to sing these guys praises from the rooftops.
GREAT thread, GREAT contact and communications. Really very optimistic and comfortable to go with you both.
Cheers
James
SO impressed with Scooby net. Saved me getting scammed. Got a great deal on a brake disc and pad set that seem to have been running in nicely (until the standard engine blew) from www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
thank you Ian.
Now that I need the engine doing, I have decided to use the great combo of Andy and Graham and will sending my car up to them on a low loader to have the following works done....
Semi forged pistons and rods, ground crank etc etc in a rebuilt engine from Andys stocks...
Matched with the following upgrades...
NGK7 plugs,
Shimmed oil pump spring
Cambelt
VF35 turbo upgrade
EM 750cc injectors
Cosworth or Pro R air filter
Steel gaskets all round ofcourse
Header ex manifold (WMS will describe the one im sure)...
So I am hoping to see my car back in a while throwing out about 300bhp (wish I could afford the ecu upgrade) and will be sure to sing these guys praises from the rooftops.
GREAT thread, GREAT contact and communications. Really very optimistic and comfortable to go with you both.
Cheers
James
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Leeds
This thread is fantastic. Excellent read. Well done guys.
Just to throw one into the mix. I'd be really interested how detrimental to power output exhaust bungs are, if at all, when fitted? I love my bung.
Cheers
Just to throw one into the mix. I'd be really interested how detrimental to power output exhaust bungs are, if at all, when fitted? I love my bung.
Cheers
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Herts
I am one over the moon chappy!!
My broken car is now fixed, collection tomorrow.
Andy has clearly done a great job on the rebuild and mods and Graham has managed to tweek it such that it is returning 309 bhp!!!
I guess I should wait to drive it before saying a massive thank you, but its there waiting for ya both chaps!!!
My broken car is now fixed, collection tomorrow.
Andy has clearly done a great job on the rebuild and mods and Graham has managed to tweek it such that it is returning 309 bhp!!!
I guess I should wait to drive it before saying a massive thank you, but its there waiting for ya both chaps!!!
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Herts
THANK YOU Andy and Graham
Having collected my car last night I am 100% over the moon!!!
The way it pulls I might have to be careful that I dont end up ON the moon!!
Amazing job chaps.
8 day turn around. Very friendly and honest work. HIGHLY recommend!!
Thanks - I will have to get a new forum membership and change name to Happy1974!!
Having collected my car last night I am 100% over the moon!!!
The way it pulls I might have to be careful that I dont end up ON the moon!!
Amazing job chaps.
8 day turn around. Very friendly and honest work. HIGHLY recommend!!
Thanks - I will have to get a new forum membership and change name to Happy1974!!
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Fantastic thread! You have got me me hooked, ive have just read eveything from start to finish and for a novice when it comes to tuning it is great advice a knowledge learnt. Id just like to thank andy and graham for the amount of time and effort you have put into the "mule" lol, as it is appreciated by all of us scooby neters.
By the way graham where are you based? As i would love to pay you a visit for some mapping
By the way graham where are you based? As i would love to pay you a visit for some mapping
Thread Starter
Engine Specialist
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 554
Likes: 1
From: Wrexham, North Wales
Fantastic thread! You have got me me hooked, ive have just read eveything from start to finish and for a novice when it comes to tuning it is great advice a knowledge learnt. Id just like to thank andy and graham for the amount of time and effort you have put into the "mule" lol, as it is appreciated by all of us scooby neters.
By the way graham where are you based? As i would love to pay you a visit for some mapping
By the way graham where are you based? As i would love to pay you a visit for some mapping
Graham
Happy new year everyone, firstly I would like to say sorry for the lack of progress recently, we have both been very busy earning a living unfortunately. I was also made a very good offer for the Mules engine/box and diff, so thats all been shipped over to Germany. I hope we can start again when time allows, neither of of us are twindling our thumbs though, I'm building a 2.25 development engine so I will post the results of that when we get her fired up. Graham was last seen in a concrete bunker near the English border clutching a large amount of turbo parts..........I wonder what He's up to??????
Scooby Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Doncaster
Thread Starter
Engine Specialist
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 554
Likes: 1
From: Wrexham, North Wales
Yes I'm afraid Andy got a very generous offer to sell the parts out of the mule and so not to miss the opportunity, took it. We're looking into a few other modding avenues at the moment and an STi which will hopefully undergo some turbo testing as the mule was at it's peak output as a WRX.
Incidentally the last test I did but never wrote about was in regards to water spray and intake cooling. We tried an aquamist system, but I found it actually hindered power when running, (jets thought to be over sized for the application), although it did bring down intake temperatures by 3-4c. However as a little test I bought a bag of ice from the Spa and dumped a load on the intercooler, reducing the temps to below ambient. I seem to remember ambient being 18c and intake temps being 8-10c on a run with ice cooling, which netted a best run of 350bhp and 370lb/ft!!
Graham
Incidentally the last test I did but never wrote about was in regards to water spray and intake cooling. We tried an aquamist system, but I found it actually hindered power when running, (jets thought to be over sized for the application), although it did bring down intake temperatures by 3-4c. However as a little test I bought a bag of ice from the Spa and dumped a load on the intercooler, reducing the temps to below ambient. I seem to remember ambient being 18c and intake temps being 8-10c on a run with ice cooling, which netted a best run of 350bhp and 370lb/ft!!
Graham