Engine build 400+ bhp
17 March 2011, 06:36 PM
#32
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I agree a 2 litre can make the numbers, if that's all you're looking for. A 2.1 will give more torque and better spool from any turbo. AND it'll make the numbers, unlike a lot of 2.5 builds, which just won't rev out.
17 March 2011, 07:12 PM
#33
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Bicco,
None of this (and you arn't suggesting this, but I feel obliged to say it) is intended to "lay the law down" or "scare" people, in the comments I have said. However the fact of the matter remains.... (all things being equal) modifying a Newage 2ltr engine to say 350bhp is in a different risk factor than modifying it to 450bhp. All my comments are trying to highlight is that 450bhp out of a Newage should be considered a higher risk, as issues like ringlands failing has happened.
Of course you have to put all of this in to context, but personally I think that a sweeping statement that an oe 2ltr newage bottom ends will take this power level (450bhp) is not factual correct.... if you look at the bigger picture.
The first thing I always ask a tuner when I am about to embark on any tuning, is how will it cope with sustained track use and has this or that set-up been used in competition before and how did it stack up. That is my "line in the sand" for reference, as I find that gives me a truer reference for "my" reliability acceptance. I will gauge my own conclusion based on their reply. I don't hide any issues I have had and whoever does my work for me, realises it will be known should issues become apparant.... most people also know how I use my car.
I digress but you perhaps see where I am coming from.
I am not familiar with all the differences between a UK and JDM 2ltr. I assume they both use the same piston composition (for the same year), but IIRC the crank on the JDM is nitrided, whereas the UK equivalent is not (someone will correct me if I am wrong).
The reason for my "self imposed" limit of circa 400bhp on my JDM, is down to more than "just" reliability. Reliability is one consideration, with the key one being driveability, response and spool. It just so happens that if I crank up the power, I will end up changing the driveability, so it is catch 22 for me at the moment.
I want to get in the car and spank (in my own way lol) the **** out of it at every oppurtunity that arises, and do this by hopefully not even having to open the bonnet. Whilst the car is currently used for weekend blasts, I am already looking at taking part in the MLR Sprint this year now. Whilst I have the means to blow £10k on a rebuild, I don't want to.... hence why I am trying to be sensible in my approach. In anycase, I personally don't think 50bhp will add any great benefit to a road car. 400bhp is more than enough for road use and when it comes to any track stuff (even competition) that can be taken on the chin.
This is obviously remit specific, but just look at what John Felstead continues to achieve in his JDM with 360bhp (on competition sprints). It is not always about power, but of course the tuning industry does not benefit from people spending money on driver tuition to make them ultimately a lot faster (in most cases), than most modifications will ever do! Neither does any driver tuition substitute bragging rights on the forums or down the pub, saying how much bhp you have!
Of course THAT is what really counts!
None of this (and you arn't suggesting this, but I feel obliged to say it) is intended to "lay the law down" or "scare" people, in the comments I have said. However the fact of the matter remains.... (all things being equal) modifying a Newage 2ltr engine to say 350bhp is in a different risk factor than modifying it to 450bhp. All my comments are trying to highlight is that 450bhp out of a Newage should be considered a higher risk, as issues like ringlands failing has happened.
Of course you have to put all of this in to context, but personally I think that a sweeping statement that an oe 2ltr newage bottom ends will take this power level (450bhp) is not factual correct.... if you look at the bigger picture.
The first thing I always ask a tuner when I am about to embark on any tuning, is how will it cope with sustained track use and has this or that set-up been used in competition before and how did it stack up. That is my "line in the sand" for reference, as I find that gives me a truer reference for "my" reliability acceptance. I will gauge my own conclusion based on their reply. I don't hide any issues I have had and whoever does my work for me, realises it will be known should issues become apparant.... most people also know how I use my car.
I digress but you perhaps see where I am coming from.
I am not familiar with all the differences between a UK and JDM 2ltr. I assume they both use the same piston composition (for the same year), but IIRC the crank on the JDM is nitrided, whereas the UK equivalent is not (someone will correct me if I am wrong).
The reason for my "self imposed" limit of circa 400bhp on my JDM, is down to more than "just" reliability. Reliability is one consideration, with the key one being driveability, response and spool. It just so happens that if I crank up the power, I will end up changing the driveability, so it is catch 22 for me at the moment.
I want to get in the car and spank (in my own way lol) the **** out of it at every oppurtunity that arises, and do this by hopefully not even having to open the bonnet. Whilst the car is currently used for weekend blasts, I am already looking at taking part in the MLR Sprint this year now. Whilst I have the means to blow £10k on a rebuild, I don't want to.... hence why I am trying to be sensible in my approach. In anycase, I personally don't think 50bhp will add any great benefit to a road car. 400bhp is more than enough for road use and when it comes to any track stuff (even competition) that can be taken on the chin.
This is obviously remit specific, but just look at what John Felstead continues to achieve in his JDM with 360bhp (on competition sprints). It is not always about power, but of course the tuning industry does not benefit from people spending money on driver tuition to make them ultimately a lot faster (in most cases), than most modifications will ever do! Neither does any driver tuition substitute bragging rights on the forums or down the pub, saying how much bhp you have!
Of course THAT is what really counts!
17 March 2011, 07:23 PM
#34
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As you know I was tempted to whack the BHP up recently, but all things considered now is not the time for a number of different reasons. Never say never, but I know exactly what that decision would lead to if / when I decide to go down that route. It would be another big engine build, but this time I wouldn't go down the 2.5 route.... it would have to be 2 or 2.1ltr. Purely because of reliability (within context).... been there and done that with the 2.5.
Saying this though, a new Billet will be going on in the next couple of weeks, but I have decided to stick with the same circa power peaks and remain focused on bettering spool and response at this stage.
P.S. Who you calling a Donkey!
Last edited by Shaun; 17 March 2011 at 07:25 PM.
17 March 2011, 08:32 PM
#35
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Bicco,
None of this (and you arn't suggesting this, but I feel obliged to say it) is intended to "lay the law down" or "scare" people, in the comments I have said. However the fact of the matter remains.... (all things being equal) modifying a Newage 2ltr engine to say 350bhp is in a different risk factor than modifying it to 450bhp. All my comments are trying to highlight is that 450bhp out of a Newage should be considered a higher risk, as issues like ringlands failing has happened.
Of course you have to put all of this in to context, but personally I think that a sweeping statement that an oe 2ltr newage bottom ends will take this power level (450bhp) is not factual correct.... if you look at the bigger picture.
The first thing I always ask a tuner when I am about to embark on any tuning, is how will it cope with sustained track use and has this or that set-up been used in competition before and how did it stack up. That is my "line in the sand" for reference, as I find that gives me a truer reference for "my" reliability acceptance. I will gauge my own conclusion based on their reply. I don't hide any issues I have had and whoever does my work for me, realises it will be known should issues become apparant.... most people also know how I use my car.
I digress but you perhaps see where I am coming from.
I am not familiar with all the differences between a UK and JDM 2ltr. I assume they both use the same piston composition (for the same year), but IIRC the crank on the JDM is nitrided, whereas the UK equivalent is not (someone will correct me if I am wrong).
The reason for my "self imposed" limit of circa 400bhp on my JDM, is down to more than "just" reliability. Reliability is one consideration, with the key one being driveability, response and spool. It just so happens that if I crank up the power, I will end up changing the driveability, so it is catch 22 for me at the moment.
I want to get in the car and spank (in my own way lol) the **** out of it at every oppurtunity that arises, and do this by hopefully not even having to open the bonnet. Whilst the car is currently used for weekend blasts, I am already looking at taking part in the MLR Sprint this year now. Whilst I have the means to blow £10k on a rebuild, I don't want to.... hence why I am trying to be sensible in my approach. In anycase, I personally don't think 50bhp will add any great benefit to a road car. 400bhp is more than enough for road use and when it comes to any track stuff (even competition) that can be taken on the chin.
This is obviously remit specific, but just look at what John Felstead continues to achieve in his JDM with 360bhp (on competition sprints). It is not always about power, but of course the tuning industry does not benefit from people spending money on driver tuition to make them ultimately a lot faster (in most cases), than most modifications will ever do! Neither does any driver tuition substitute bragging rights on the forums or down the pub, saying how much bhp you have! Of course THAT is what really counts!
None of this (and you arn't suggesting this, but I feel obliged to say it) is intended to "lay the law down" or "scare" people, in the comments I have said. However the fact of the matter remains.... (all things being equal) modifying a Newage 2ltr engine to say 350bhp is in a different risk factor than modifying it to 450bhp. All my comments are trying to highlight is that 450bhp out of a Newage should be considered a higher risk, as issues like ringlands failing has happened.
Of course you have to put all of this in to context, but personally I think that a sweeping statement that an oe 2ltr newage bottom ends will take this power level (450bhp) is not factual correct.... if you look at the bigger picture.
The first thing I always ask a tuner when I am about to embark on any tuning, is how will it cope with sustained track use and has this or that set-up been used in competition before and how did it stack up. That is my "line in the sand" for reference, as I find that gives me a truer reference for "my" reliability acceptance. I will gauge my own conclusion based on their reply. I don't hide any issues I have had and whoever does my work for me, realises it will be known should issues become apparant.... most people also know how I use my car.
I digress but you perhaps see where I am coming from.
I am not familiar with all the differences between a UK and JDM 2ltr. I assume they both use the same piston composition (for the same year), but IIRC the crank on the JDM is nitrided, whereas the UK equivalent is not (someone will correct me if I am wrong).
The reason for my "self imposed" limit of circa 400bhp on my JDM, is down to more than "just" reliability. Reliability is one consideration, with the key one being driveability, response and spool. It just so happens that if I crank up the power, I will end up changing the driveability, so it is catch 22 for me at the moment.
I want to get in the car and spank (in my own way lol) the **** out of it at every oppurtunity that arises, and do this by hopefully not even having to open the bonnet. Whilst the car is currently used for weekend blasts, I am already looking at taking part in the MLR Sprint this year now. Whilst I have the means to blow £10k on a rebuild, I don't want to.... hence why I am trying to be sensible in my approach. In anycase, I personally don't think 50bhp will add any great benefit to a road car. 400bhp is more than enough for road use and when it comes to any track stuff (even competition) that can be taken on the chin.
This is obviously remit specific, but just look at what John Felstead continues to achieve in his JDM with 360bhp (on competition sprints). It is not always about power, but of course the tuning industry does not benefit from people spending money on driver tuition to make them ultimately a lot faster (in most cases), than most modifications will ever do! Neither does any driver tuition substitute bragging rights on the forums or down the pub, saying how much bhp you have!
Of course THAT is what really counts!If somebody came to me and said they wanted a track car, I'd come up with a different list than I would if they wanted a fast "road" car.
Tuning cars costs money. There really isn't much in it between suffering a failure and then fixing it, as there is to rebuilding it forged to start with. If anybody doesn't want to spend money on the car, I'd suggest leaving it alone!
Re the Felstead example, of course he's getting the best out of it. I'd say I know about that one, having indulged in one make racing. I used to lap Mallory Park in 59 seconds in a 1966 MG Midget with 100 bhp, standard brakes, standard lowered suspension and 165/70x13 road tyres. If you give that a go some time, you'll see what I mean!
Occasionally, I get asked about track day cars, and I always tell people to go try it first, and when they can't get any more out of the car, that's the time to add some power.
Last edited by Alan Jeffery; 17 March 2011 at 08:33 PM.
17 March 2011, 08:33 PM
#36
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The first thing I always ask a tuner when I am about to embark on any tuning, is how will it cope with sustained track use and has this or that set-up been used in competition before and how did it stack up. That is my "line in the sand" for reference, as I find that gives me a truer reference for "my" reliability acceptance.
Nobody is saying that he would be able to take it to a circuit, compete in a Time Attack event in it and then drive it home.
The brief for a fast road car and a race car are very different, most people out there understand that and don't confuse the two.
Martyn
17 March 2011, 08:35 PM
#37
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I'd like to point out that Martyn is in his house, and I'm in mine! 
You tell him son...
You tell him son...
17 March 2011, 09:22 PM
#40
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Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me, no dig intended, I am genuinly interested in your opinion, I have a lot of faith in the information I gather off your posts on here, and your advice as seen me right several times in the past (even though it hasn`t been directed at me personally 
)
I fully agree on the driver tuition, this is something I am investing a lot of time into at the moment, especially after watching John in his JDM last year, even though I don`t want to compete, the whole experience of track driving is much better.
I intended on increaseing the power of the car after this season, to somewhere in the region debated here, hence why this thread peaked my interest, I understand it will ultimatly reduce reliablitiy, but I wouldn`t of minded getting a year or two out of it, before it munches itself.
)I fully agree on the driver tuition, this is something I am investing a lot of time into at the moment, especially after watching John in his JDM last year, even though I don`t want to compete, the whole experience of track driving is much better.
I intended on increaseing the power of the car after this season, to somewhere in the region debated here, hence why this thread peaked my interest, I understand it will ultimatly reduce reliablitiy, but I wouldn`t of minded getting a year or two out of it, before it munches itself.
17 March 2011, 09:25 PM
#41
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Alan,
Apologies as I was referring to the STI variety.
We are going to go round in circles about what you have seen yourself and what I know has happened with others (not your customers I hasten to add). Both of them factual statements.
Martyn,
I said it's the first thing I do. Not what you all should do. I'm not building a race car either (well not this week), but trying to judge how much of a beating an engine will take is what I do.... and the reason why I ask the said question is simply because I might suddenly get up one morning and think "Sod it - what event shall I do".
I believe PLENTY of people misunderstand the difference between a road car set-up and even a track car set-up..... let alone a race car. You see examples on this very forum all too often. I know, I have had many people ask me said question personally...... and I'm not even a professional in the business.
This thread is digressing somewhat and I have been partly (or soley) to blame for that. I apologise to the OP for that, but I still stand by my original comment that a OE 2ltr STI engine should not be treated as a "forget me" at 450bhp with assured reliability. There are exponentially increased risks of failure when compared to a 350bhp remap (all things being equal) for example imo.
You (and others) diasgree but that's life and we are all allowed opinions / views.
Apologies as I was referring to the STI variety.
We are going to go round in circles about what you have seen yourself and what I know has happened with others (not your customers I hasten to add). Both of them factual statements.
Martyn,
I said it's the first thing I do. Not what you all should do.
I'm not building a race car either (well not this week), but trying to judge how much of a beating an engine will take is what I do.... and the reason why I ask the said question is simply because I might suddenly get up one morning and think "Sod it - what event shall I do".I believe PLENTY of people misunderstand the difference between a road car set-up and even a track car set-up..... let alone a race car. You see examples on this very forum all too often. I know, I have had many people ask me said question personally...... and I'm not even a professional in the business.
This thread is digressing somewhat and I have been partly (or soley) to blame for that. I apologise to the OP for that, but I still stand by my original comment that a OE 2ltr STI
engine should not be treated as a "forget me" at 450bhp with assured reliability. There are exponentially increased risks of failure when compared to a 350bhp remap (all things being equal) for example imo.You (and others) diasgree but that's life and we are all allowed opinions / views.
17 March 2011, 09:37 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me, no dig intended, I am genuinly interested in your opinion, I have a lot of faith in the information I gather off your posts on here, and your advice as seen me right several times in the past (even though it hasn`t been directed at me personally )
I fully agree on the driver tuition, this is something I am investing a lot of time into at the moment, especially after watching John in his JDM last year, even though I don`t want to compete, the whole experience of track driving is much better.
I intended on increaseing the power of the car after this season, to somewhere in the region debated here, hence why this thread peaked my interest, I understand it will ultimatly reduce reliablitiy, but I wouldn`t of minded getting a year or two out of it, before it munches itself.
)I fully agree on the driver tuition, this is something I am investing a lot of time into at the moment, especially after watching John in his JDM last year, even though I don`t want to compete, the whole experience of track driving is much better.
I intended on increaseing the power of the car after this season, to somewhere in the region debated here, hence why this thread peaked my interest, I understand it will ultimatly reduce reliablitiy, but I wouldn`t of minded getting a year or two out of it, before it munches itself.
Just to make it crystal... I am not an engine builder and can not hold a light (and I don't want to) to many of the professional tuners in the industry.
I am a simple (OK.. not that simple) man who keeps learning (some would suggest I never learn!) through either my own experiences or that of others that let me know "things".
I have my own view on things, but if you want professional advice... go see a professional and don't listen to me!
Nice one on the tuition front.... every £1 spent on good tuition will reap benefits hundred fold in so many other areas. I get more pleasure out of learning to understand the vehicles dynamics than I do turning up the "wick" at the moment. Sad innit!
17 March 2011, 10:48 PM
#44
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I might be putting it on the rollers next week, to finish it off...
Anyone got a cheap CDB ?
dunx
P.S. I enjoy driving mine on track, as I'm a semi-pro driver for work, so I get my aggression out of my system. I find too many people assume I want to go faster round the circuit, when I really enjoy learning the parts of the performance/handling envelope I daren't exercise on the public highway.
Last edited by dunx; 17 March 2011 at 10:52 PM.
18 March 2011, 01:45 PM
#45
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From a PM I received today...
WR1,
"Car is sorted now - sc46 and a new perrin induction kit and inlet hose, duncan remapped it on their rolling road and made 438.4 bhp".
Apparently was capable of 470bhp, but was "eased off" to save breaking it !
dunx
WR1,
"Car is sorted now - sc46 and a new perrin induction kit and inlet hose, duncan remapped it on their rolling road and made 438.4 bhp".
Apparently was capable of 470bhp, but was "eased off" to save breaking it !
dunx
18 March 2011, 01:51 PM
#46
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Yer like Dunx said, there seems to be a recommended limit set by most of the tuning companies I have spoken to at running the WR1 (2004 Newage STI) at up to 450bhp to keep it reliable on a road car.
Know people running over 500bhp on standard internals. Also know a couple of STIs that went bang at 470bhp on standard internals. If you modify you take your chances at the end of the day, but whilst the car is working at such high BHP it will certainly put a huge grin on your face
Know people running over 500bhp on standard internals. Also know a couple of STIs that went bang at 470bhp on standard internals. If you modify you take your chances at the end of the day, but whilst the car is working at such high BHP it will certainly put a huge grin on your face
20 March 2011, 09:01 AM
#55
running higher boost and something like a syvecs would have seen much more but was kept sensible at this stage
As for David at API saying anything over 1.35 bar on a 2.5 causing ringland failure ...
22 March 2011, 05:13 PM
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As for David at API saying anything over 1.35 bar on a 2.5 causing ringland failure ...
Don't snigger at me - the evidence on the Litchfield 2.5's was there to be seen, until we started fitting forged pistons. AND look at what is happening on the 2.5 hatches on PPP my local dealer is forever fitting pistons and taking out ones with cracked ring lands.
But of course you know more than we do here, so I bow to your superior knowledge and experience of the 2.5 engines on STANDARD pistons.
David
Don't snigger at me - the evidence on the Litchfield 2.5's was there to be seen, until we started fitting forged pistons. AND look at what is happening on the 2.5 hatches on PPP my local dealer is forever fitting pistons and taking out ones with cracked ring lands.
But of course you know more than we do here, so I bow to your superior knowledge and experience of the 2.5 engines on STANDARD pistons.
David
22 March 2011, 06:49 PM
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One of the striking things for me when getting familiar with the 2.5 Hawk after my UK classic was the tuners' regard of the pistons.
UK classic (non forged): 1.5 bar peak boost, no one raised an eyebrow
Hawk (hypereucwotitsthingies) leave it at circa 1.3 bar, guvnor!!
Needless to say, I had em ripped out of the car and didn't even ask to keep em as coffee place mats......cause I like my coffee hot and they might crack and spill me gold blend all over the table.....
*runs*
UK classic (non forged): 1.5 bar peak boost, no one raised an eyebrow
Hawk (hypereucwotitsthingies) leave it at circa 1.3 bar, guvnor!!
Needless to say, I had em ripped out of the car and didn't even ask to keep em as coffee place mats......cause I like my coffee hot and they might crack and spill me gold blend all over the table.....
*runs*
