Panorama tonight BBC
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As I see it, fundamentalists are creating a situation were Muslims in general are being viewed with suspicion by the 'kaffer'. Subsequently the Muslim community is becoming more insuler and the kaffer more suspicious. A vicious cycle. One 'side' has to break cover soon before the issue escalates. In your view, what can moderate Islam do and what can non-Muslims do to build bridges? My view is that the Islamists need to be extirpated - is moderate Islam in this country prepared to help?
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Thanks, Asif, I'm well, thank you. To be fair I've been getting frustrated with a lack of constructive input from the Muslim community so it's good to hear from you.
So we just sit it out then? Is it the case that moderate Islam are doing their bit behind the scenes but avoid 'going public'. Is this for fear of uncle tom accusations, reprisals or simple small 'c' conservatism?
My fear isn't primarily of the physical threat, but the ideological threat. Specifically my perception that British Muslims seem unwilling to publicly back secularism. Am I misjudging the community; where, for example, do you stand on secularism?
So we just sit it out then? Is it the case that moderate Islam are doing their bit behind the scenes but avoid 'going public'. Is this for fear of uncle tom accusations, reprisals or simple small 'c' conservatism?
My fear isn't primarily of the physical threat, but the ideological threat. Specifically my perception that British Muslims seem unwilling to publicly back secularism. Am I misjudging the community; where, for example, do you stand on secularism?
Hello James, how are you? Long time.
I might be wrong, but I disagree with the premise. I don't expect you to remember my previous posts on the subject but having tried to tackle extremism, head on, face to face, I don't think so.
I have spoken to and challenged Muslims who have openly supported Bin Laden, 9/11 etc, it is quite frightening to be honest. I almost lost 3 members of my family that day, and also more on 7/7. My views against these people are very strong. It was not an experience I relished to be honest.
The best way to deal with the crimes that these people committ is through normal policing and the actions that have led to the arrest and prosecution of a number of plotters. I will tell you now, that as I have a good friend who was in the Anti Terror Police and was part of the team that brought these people to justice, the Police rely 100% on intelligence from within the Muslim community, there is no other way for them.
As regards to the overall issue, please refer to my other posts in this thread for how the overall problem needs to be resolved.
Thanks.
Asif
I might be wrong, but I disagree with the premise. I don't expect you to remember my previous posts on the subject but having tried to tackle extremism, head on, face to face, I don't think so.
I have spoken to and challenged Muslims who have openly supported Bin Laden, 9/11 etc, it is quite frightening to be honest. I almost lost 3 members of my family that day, and also more on 7/7. My views against these people are very strong. It was not an experience I relished to be honest.
The best way to deal with the crimes that these people committ is through normal policing and the actions that have led to the arrest and prosecution of a number of plotters. I will tell you now, that as I have a good friend who was in the Anti Terror Police and was part of the team that brought these people to justice, the Police rely 100% on intelligence from within the Muslim community, there is no other way for them.
As regards to the overall issue, please refer to my other posts in this thread for how the overall problem needs to be resolved.
Thanks.
Asif
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to me theres no such a thing as extremesim thats a new word there a few ignorant nutters but the word extremism doesnt actuley exist there is religous which some one who tells the truth and lives his life the muslim way the way that someone submits to god alone.
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if a person comes from a country and has the you know what comments thrown at them then the person making the comments is branded racist , therefore . why do we never take offence , a few example , brits scots frisps sheep taffys pixies devonshire dumplins no one bats a eyelid . but mention the P word and all hell brakes loose why after all its only an abreviation of the name of the country they come from , as for muslim comments they cant possibly be rasist can they as they are followers of a FAITH and not a race . does that make anyone making derogotory comments a FAITHIST . anyhows if i had my way the word british would be removed from my passport and replaced with ENGLISH as being called british to me is no longer a compliment
if a person comes from a country and has the you know what comments thrown at them then the person making the comments is branded racist , therefore . why do we never take offence , a few example , brits scots frisps sheep taffys pixies devonshire dumplins no one bats a eyelid . but mention the P word and all hell brakes loose why after all its only an abreviation of the name of the country they come from , as for muslim comments they cant possibly be rasist can they as they are followers of a FAITH and not a race . does that make anyone making derogotory comments a FAITHIST . anyhows if i had my way the word british would be removed from my passport and replaced with ENGLISH as being called british to me is no longer a compliment
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Incidentally, I didn't mention the word extremist in my post.
I would get p**sed off if people insinuated I was from Scotland
Aaron
an abreviation of the word nigeria , but proves my point banny, what the hell is the meaning of the word kaffa in the various languages that call us white people it , i would be interested to know and cant be arsed to google it. i take more offence from being called british than anything else because to me now it means nothing anyone born here is called it . if the goverment where to intraduce the word uk national it would solve a lot of identity problems
Kuffar means non believer.
ah i see so therefore then its not a insult just a statement based on an assumption that the person in question has no faith to believe in and is a atheist or is it implying that the person is a non believer in one particular faith ie islamic
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if a person comes from a country and has the you know what comments thrown at them then the person making the comments is branded racist , therefore . why do we never take offence , a few example , brits scots frisps sheep taffys pixies devonshire dumplins no one bats a eyelid . but mention the P word and all hell brakes loose why after all its only an abreviation of the name of the country they come from , as for muslim comments they cant possibly be rasist can they as they are followers of a FAITH and not a race . does that make anyone making derogotory comments a FAITHIST . anyhows if i had my way the word british would be removed from my passport and replaced with ENGLISH as being called british to me is no longer a compliment
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an abreviation of the word nigeria , but proves my point banny, what the hell is the meaning of the word kaffa in the various languages that call us white people it , i would be interested to know and cant be arsed to google it. i take more offence from being called british than anything else because to me now it means nothing anyone born here is called it . if the goverment where to intraduce the word uk national it would solve a lot of identity problems
Who told you that??
There are many theories as to where the N word comes from but I've never heard that one before
The reason Asians are offended by being called a Paki, as far as I understand, is because, as Aaron pointed out, not all people with brown skin are from Pakistan. Additionally, the term Paki has become synonymous with ignorant bigotry and is very often used derogatorily.
if 2 people born in asia have a child here does that make the child asian or british ?
if a british / english / white couple are on holiday in any country and the wife is pregnant and gives birth early in said holiday country does that mean the childs nationality if that of the other country , of course it doesnt thats why social intergration will never work as the germans have found out . the reason i want british removed from my passport now becomes clearer . as my deceased mum traced our family tree back to the great fire of london i would like my nationality to be english not british as i feel this is now a generalization and not clear enough i would wager most welsh and scottish people if they admitted it feel the same
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Well, you asked me a question and then answered it for me. However, FWIW I consider myself to be British. I believe being British is about respect, tolerance, reason and freedom of conscience. Being British, for me, is about setting aside petty squabbles and working hard to maintain liberal democracy, a seperation of church and state and pride in our capacity for inclusiveness. We do this through civilised social intercourse and adherance to the rule of British law and enforcing this where dialogue has proved futile. It's not the colour of your skin that decides Britishness, but rather your principles and state of mind.
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As I see it, fundamentalists are creating a situation were Muslims in general are being viewed with suspicion by the 'kaffer'. Subsequently the Muslim community is becoming more insuler and the kaffer more suspicious. A vicious cycle. One 'side' has to break cover soon before the issue escalates. In your view, what can moderate Islam do and what can non-Muslims do to build bridges? My view is that the Islamists need to be extirpated - is moderate Islam in this country prepared to help?
So you need to make them join you. One of the objectives of the 9/11 attacks, was to get the USA to attack a Muslim country, or two. There was only ever one way for the US to react to that attack. Once you make ordinary Muslims feel they are being attacked, they will turn to whomever will protect them. The extremists hope that it is they that ordinary Muslims will turn to.
The idiotic poppy burners can't do a lot as they are only 35. However, if they can get the white UK population to turn against and attack ordinary Muslims, that is another way for them to gain support, by saying "I told you so".
In both cases the instinctive, gut reaction is the wrong one IMO. For the one reason is that is what they want you to do.
Hope this answers your question.
Even if that was the case, then I guess you'd have the same irritation that Asians feel. As said, not all Asians are from Pakistan and a vast amount of black people won't be from Nigeria. Yet people are so ignorant that they don't care and just label them anyway. As JTaylor also said, alot comes down to how a word is generally used.
You are actively saying you would be happier to be referred to specifically as English (rather than British) as it's where you are from etc. but then you think it's ok to use the Paki/Nig*** term for people you don't know/know where they come from (regardless of whether the words are 'nasty') and you can't see why they may have a problem?
You are actively saying you would be happier to be referred to specifically as English (rather than British) as it's where you are from etc. but then you think it's ok to use the Paki/Nig*** term for people you don't know/know where they come from (regardless of whether the words are 'nasty') and you can't see why they may have a problem?
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Thanks, Asif, I'm well, thank you. To be fair I've been getting frustrated with a lack of constructive input from the Muslim community so it's good to hear from you.
So we just sit it out then? Is it the case that moderate Islam are doing their bit behind the scenes but avoid 'going public'. Is this for fear of uncle tom accusations, reprisals or simple small 'c' conservatism?
My fear isn't primarily of the physical threat, but the ideological threat. Specifically my perception that British Muslims seem unwilling to publicly back secularism. Am I misjudging the community; where, for example, do you stand on secularism?
So we just sit it out then? Is it the case that moderate Islam are doing their bit behind the scenes but avoid 'going public'. Is this for fear of uncle tom accusations, reprisals or simple small 'c' conservatism?
My fear isn't primarily of the physical threat, but the ideological threat. Specifically my perception that British Muslims seem unwilling to publicly back secularism. Am I misjudging the community; where, for example, do you stand on secularism?
But I suspect that they would rather travel to the end of the Earth to go and film some nutcase shouting, "Kill white people!" or "Kill Christians!" What is their obsession with nut cases? Nut cases are 0.0001% of the population but get 100% of the media coverage. Why is this??
The insult on top of injury is that all the while these nut cases are purported to be 'representatives of the community' or some bollox like that. It's ridiculous!
To answer your question, Muslims are not concerned by Secularists or Atheists, except how they attack the Church. Muslims respect other peoples' religions and beliefs, it is anti Islamic to do anything else.
Asif
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Not sure how this has turned to race, but isn't the N word from Negro?
Using Paki can be done without causing offence. Usually if you know someone, or in a joke. The Aussies have used it to describe Pakistanis, but I believe that they always have done.
In my experience, it is English/British people who use it in a derogotary or abusive sense, as per my own experience.
If you abuse someone, no matter how you do it, you should expect a response.
If you are making a joke, then as long as people know that, I don't see the problem.
Using Paki can be done without causing offence. Usually if you know someone, or in a joke. The Aussies have used it to describe Pakistanis, but I believe that they always have done.
In my experience, it is English/British people who use it in a derogotary or abusive sense, as per my own experience.
If you abuse someone, no matter how you do it, you should expect a response.
If you are making a joke, then as long as people know that, I don't see the problem.
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It's certainly logical and how I read the situation; Islamists are winning the strategic battle for hearts and minds amongst ordinary Muslims. Are there Muslim groups presenting a coherant stance against this? Also, and I'm sorry to be persistent here, would you be so good as to answer my question around secularism? Where do you stand? Do you subscribe to a seperation between church/mosque and state?
It's really simple in all cases. In the case of the idiotic poppy burners, all the way back to 9/11, what the extremists want is for the majority of Muslims to join them. The majority of Muslims won't.
So you need to make them join you. One of the objectives of the 9/11 attacks, was to get the USA to attack a Muslim country, or two. There was only ever one way for the US to react to that attack. Once you make ordinary Muslims feel they are being attacked, they will turn to whomever will protect them. The extremists hope that it is they that ordinary Muslims will turn to.
The idiotic poppy burners can't do a lot as they are only 35. However, if they can get the white UK population to turn against and attack ordinary Muslims, that is another way for them to gain support, by saying "I told you so".
In both cases the instinctive, gut reaction is the wrong one IMO. For the one reason is that is what they want you to do.
Hope this answers your question.
So you need to make them join you. One of the objectives of the 9/11 attacks, was to get the USA to attack a Muslim country, or two. There was only ever one way for the US to react to that attack. Once you make ordinary Muslims feel they are being attacked, they will turn to whomever will protect them. The extremists hope that it is they that ordinary Muslims will turn to.
The idiotic poppy burners can't do a lot as they are only 35. However, if they can get the white UK population to turn against and attack ordinary Muslims, that is another way for them to gain support, by saying "I told you so".
In both cases the instinctive, gut reaction is the wrong one IMO. For the one reason is that is what they want you to do.
Hope this answers your question.
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It's certainly logical and how I read the situation; Islamists are winning the strategic battle for hearts and minds amongst ordinary Muslims. Are there Muslim groups presenting a coherant stance against this? Also, and I'm sorry to be persistent here, would you be so good as to answer my question around secularism? Where do you stand? Do you subscribe to a seperation between church/mosque and state?
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I would not ban any faith schools and nor would I be against anyone practising their own chosen religion.
I would not however accept any attempt to undermine our own style of government, our own laws and traditions.
Any attempt at that should be proscribed and if it was going on then steps should be taken to stop that or any other kind of seditious behaviour.
We need leaders who in the first place are anxious to defend our country and its native people. Those who want to live here must be prepared to accept our laws and our way of life.
The PC Plonkers and those politicians who are not man enough to speak up or act to protect this country but prefer to let it happen are doing us all a grave disservice.
Les
I would not however accept any attempt to undermine our own style of government, our own laws and traditions.
Any attempt at that should be proscribed and if it was going on then steps should be taken to stop that or any other kind of seditious behaviour.
We need leaders who in the first place are anxious to defend our country and its native people. Those who want to live here must be prepared to accept our laws and our way of life.
The PC Plonkers and those politicians who are not man enough to speak up or act to protect this country but prefer to let it happen are doing us all a grave disservice.
Les
