Starting again.... with a Hawkeye
23 August 2010, 09:52 PM
#92
fpan,
I'm sure Rich will do you a good turn with whatever he does.
Lee,
Litchfield's are continuing their development of their LM's, of which at least one I will be trying as soon as it is ready. First off a LM400 will be going on to test in the immediate timeframe and this will be going on next week. Soon after another Litchfield turbo will be going on that should prove rather good if current testing is anything to go by.
I'm sure Rich will do you a good turn with whatever he does.
Lee,
Litchfield's are continuing their development of their LM's, of which at least one I will be trying as soon as it is ready. First off a LM400 will be going on to test in the immediate timeframe and this will be going on next week. Soon after another Litchfield turbo will be going on that should prove rather good if current testing is anything to go by.
24 August 2010, 02:04 PM
#93
Shaun, have you tried the throttle blipping on downshift?
I guess it is only for show and not a real rev matching system?
How does the ECU know you are about to downshift and not upshift?
Also where did you have the car weighed? Is there a facility to do so near Tracktive?
I guess it is only for show and not a real rev matching system?
How does the ECU know you are about to downshift and not upshift?
Also where did you have the car weighed? Is there a facility to do so near Tracktive?
Last edited by fpan; 24 August 2010 at 02:22 PM.
24 August 2010, 03:27 PM
#94
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Throttle blipping is only available as part of RaceROM. This is for all drive by wire cars and will be released soon. The ecu knows you are about to change and what gear you are changing from and to I suspect.
Tracktive do not have a weighbridge, but I have access to one at work.
Tracktive do not have a weighbridge, but I have access to one at work.
24 August 2010, 08:57 PM
#95
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I was out with Deltadash again last night...... i'm getting far to **** about this stuff now, but regardless of that it really is fascinating to see the effects of weather against acceleration times and of course the power outputs.
Most of us have a common understanding of the effects that weather can have on your cars performance. Driving the car in hot weather and you instantly "feel" that the car is not as sharp or as urgent.
All the recent logs were completed during fairly hot conditions and as John has pointed out, these conditions can effect the vehicles performance.
Last night the temperatures were a lot cooler and since Road Dyno will provide the air intake temperature and atmospheric pressure (which can have a bearing on power), you can do a fair bit of further analysis. Regardless of power figures from Road Dyno, my real comparitor is acceleration times. I appreciate they can be linked, but decreased acceleration times, to me, are the real evidence that a car is quicker.
So here is the dyno plot from last night (same vehicle specifications as in weight as always and repeated for three runs) at 17degs intake temps (ambients were 14degs), as opposed to the previous run of 22degs intake temps.
Road Dyno provides "Wheel Power" figure which showed:
287bhp @ 5725rpm and 313lbft @ 4113rpm at the wheels
Calculated flywheel figures:
359bhp / 391lbft
That is another increase from the previous dyno run.
Of course it was the acceleration times I was really bothered about and fortunately they had improved as well.
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 2.4 seconds
50 - 70mph = 2.3 seconds
60 - 80mph = 2.5 seconds
70 - 90mph = 2.8 seconds
So going back to compare these against the previously mentioned remapped UK 2.5 STI:
Compare against the remapped 2.5ltr (@ 368bhp):
2.5 UK
50 - 90mph = 5.5
2.0 JDM Twinscroll
50 - 90mph = 5.1
So.... just make sure you drive your car in the cooler weather to gain a free performance advantage!
Most of us have a common understanding of the effects that weather can have on your cars performance. Driving the car in hot weather and you instantly "feel" that the car is not as sharp or as urgent.
All the recent logs were completed during fairly hot conditions and as John has pointed out, these conditions can effect the vehicles performance.
Last night the temperatures were a lot cooler and since Road Dyno will provide the air intake temperature and atmospheric pressure (which can have a bearing on power), you can do a fair bit of further analysis. Regardless of power figures from Road Dyno, my real comparitor is acceleration times. I appreciate they can be linked, but decreased acceleration times, to me, are the real evidence that a car is quicker.
So here is the dyno plot from last night (same vehicle specifications as in weight as always and repeated for three runs) at 17degs intake temps (ambients were 14degs), as opposed to the previous run of 22degs intake temps.
Road Dyno provides "Wheel Power" figure which showed:
287bhp @ 5725rpm and 313lbft @ 4113rpm at the wheels
Calculated flywheel figures:
359bhp / 391lbft
That is another increase from the previous dyno run.
Of course it was the acceleration times I was really bothered about and fortunately they had improved as well.
In Gear Acceleration:
40 - 60mph = 2.4 seconds
50 - 70mph = 2.3 seconds
60 - 80mph = 2.5 seconds
70 - 90mph = 2.8 seconds
So going back to compare these against the previously mentioned remapped UK 2.5 STI:
Compare against the remapped 2.5ltr (@ 368bhp):
2.5 UK
50 - 90mph = 5.5
2.0 JDM Twinscroll
50 - 90mph = 5.1
So.... just make sure you drive your car in the cooler weather to gain a free performance advantage!
25 August 2010, 09:33 AM
#97
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Shaun, when I do Delta dash runs here with Bob we do 4;- 2 in one direction of the flattest road you can find and two the opposite direction on the same piece of road. We find that the ECu / car ' learns ' and the times and power get better.
We then take an average, assuming that there are no rogue figures that smack you in the face when you look at them. I also think that Delta dash runs are 10 hp over the top compared to a rolling road session.
I would be very surprised if the power is 359 even on the safest of calculations. AND whilst I have sold you an excellent car at the top of its performance, I think 359 is a stretch on that turbo on a 2.0.
Apologies for the car sales plug.........
David APi
PS we have weigh scales here for the coilover sets we fit - we can get you an accurate weight if you want to pop in.
We then take an average, assuming that there are no rogue figures that smack you in the face when you look at them. I also think that Delta dash runs are 10 hp over the top compared to a rolling road session.
I would be very surprised if the power is 359 even on the safest of calculations. AND whilst I have sold you an excellent car at the top of its performance, I think 359 is a stretch on that turbo on a 2.0.
Apologies for the car sales plug.........
David APi
PS we have weigh scales here for the coilover sets we fit - we can get you an accurate weight if you want to pop in.
25 August 2010, 12:24 PM
#98
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David,
I always complete three runs and to be fair they seem to be nigh on the same each time.
At the end of the day as long as the runs are completed in the same way each time with the same parameters, it should provide meaningful "progression" results. However I do place more importance on the acceleration times than the power runs.
Will take you up on your offer of accurately weighing the car, when I pop up shortly to get the Defi's fitted.
I always complete three runs and to be fair they seem to be nigh on the same each time.
At the end of the day as long as the runs are completed in the same way each time with the same parameters, it should provide meaningful "progression" results. However I do place more importance on the acceleration times than the power runs.
Will take you up on your offer of accurately weighing the car, when I pop up shortly to get the Defi's fitted.
25 August 2010, 05:17 PM
#99
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May I also suggest "Protecting/Upgrade the clutch Hydraulics" from Turbo heat soak.
I recently at Brunters got in a queue to go as probem ontrack, when I did go i crunched a gearchange or two,
Sometime later after another unexpected long wait, this time clutch went to the Floor and stopped there but could not get in gear
cluch fluid was ***** hot 
five mins or so with bonnet up and all went back to normal this New LM400 does generate some heat under the bonnet but with "normal cooling down" this has never happened before.
IMHO
Tony
I recently at Brunters got in a queue to go as probem ontrack, when I did go i crunched a gearchange or two,
Sometime later after another unexpected long wait, this time clutch went to the Floor and stopped there but could not get in gear
cluch fluid was ***** hot five mins or so with bonnet up and all went back to normal
this New LM400 does generate some heat under the bonnet but with "normal cooling down" this has never happened before.IMHO
Tony
25 August 2010, 05:52 PM
#100
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It wouldn't be getting hotter than the GT30 I had on the Spec C, that got that hot it cracked the exhaust housing and twisted the wastegate..... and I never had any problems with boiling the clutch fluid.
It maybe worth looking at the efficiency of the heat shield you have.... which I assume is the Litchfield one. I managed to re-fit my OE one, although it needed to be cut up a bit for the much larger AET turbo on the Spec C and never had any issues.
Thanks for the information Tony. I will look in to when I am up at Litchfield's next week. I will either alter the OE one or fit a turbo blanket I already have.
It maybe worth looking at the efficiency of the heat shield you have.... which I assume is the Litchfield one. I managed to re-fit my OE one, although it needed to be cut up a bit for the much larger AET turbo on the Spec C and never had any issues.
Thanks for the information Tony. I will look in to when I am up at Litchfield's next week. I will either alter the OE one or fit a turbo blanket I already have.
25 August 2010, 06:27 PM
#101
When did you last bleed the clutch Tony? It's common even on a road used car for the clutch to do that if the fluid hasnt been bled in a sensible time frame.
David, you arent seeing the effect of the ECU learning so much as an improvement in the turbo efficiency as it heats up, you get a better turbo eficiency when you do a few pulls consecutively, even on a Rolling Road you will tend to see the power go up on the 2nd and 3rd pull, asuming you are cooling the intake and IC correctly.
David, you arent seeing the effect of the ECU learning so much as an improvement in the turbo efficiency as it heats up, you get a better turbo eficiency when you do a few pulls consecutively, even on a Rolling Road you will tend to see the power go up on the 2nd and 3rd pull, asuming you are cooling the intake and IC correctly.
26 August 2010, 12:46 PM
#103
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David, you arent seeing the effect of the ECU learning so much as an improvement in the turbo efficiency as it heats up, you get a better turbo eficiency when you do a few pulls consecutively, even on a Rolling Road you will tend to see the power go up on the 2nd and 3rd pull, asuming you are cooling the intake and IC correctly.
Don't you just love RRs TX.
26 August 2010, 12:52 PM
#104
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That's part of the problem you see.
Taking John's comment on face value ; As the turbo warms up it works better.
BUT as it gets too warm it makes less power.
Somewhere in the middle of all that is a power figure that may or may not be accurate.......
David APi
Taking John's comment on face value ; As the turbo warms up it works better.
BUT as it gets too warm it makes less power.
Somewhere in the middle of all that is a power figure that may or may not be accurate.......
David APi
26 August 2010, 12:58 PM
#105
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Thankfully if you are using Road Dyno and you are doing it appropriately those factors are either minimised or totally erradicated. To be honest places like Tracktive, AET and PowerStation I have never had these types of "dyno issue". They all have very good, purpose built dyno cells...... with very good cooling systems.
Last edited by Shaun; 26 August 2010 at 01:00 PM.
26 August 2010, 08:16 PM
#106
May I also suggest "Protecting/Upgrade the clutch Hydraulics" from Turbo heat soak.
I recently at Brunters got in a queue to go as probem ontrack, when I did go i crunched a gearchange or two,
Sometime later after another unexpected long wait, this time clutch went to the Floor and stopped there but could not get in gear cluch fluid was ***** hot
five mins or so with bonnet up and all went back to normal this New LM400 does generate some heat under the bonnet but with "normal cooling down" this has never happened before.
IMHO
Tony
I recently at Brunters got in a queue to go as probem ontrack, when I did go i crunched a gearchange or two,
Sometime later after another unexpected long wait, this time clutch went to the Floor and stopped there but could not get in gear
cluch fluid was ***** hot five mins or so with bonnet up and all went back to normal
this New LM400 does generate some heat under the bonnet but with "normal cooling down" this has never happened before.IMHO
Tony
I had the OE heat shield fitted with a little coaxing on to my LM420
Lee.
26 August 2010, 09:32 PM
#109
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Thread Starter
Apparantly it is 2003 to end of Hawkeye (non DBW) JDM.
My ECU now thinks it is a MY03 Spec C (which is the MegaROM ECU version)!
My ECU now thinks it is a MY03 Spec C (which is the MegaROM ECU version)!
26 August 2010, 10:05 PM
#110
Like all these things David, the figures are all meaningless when comparing two different types of testing or even two rolling roads against each other, you have to look at the tools available and use them inteligently to assess changes.
No ones figures are actually correct, you need a dyno cell in a controlled environment for that, and even then as soon as you install the engine in the car it changes again anyway.
Saying that, my Blobeye kicks *** based on all these figures.
26 August 2010, 10:31 PM
#111
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My Hawkeye might be slower then yours...... but it has a fit bird sat in the passenger seat on occasion!
Intelligently assess that!
Intelligently assess that!
26 August 2010, 10:45 PM
#114
Not your car, but th RR used. You need to make sure the airflow is very good to the inlet, radiator and scoop to get any sense out of a RR session, the ECU knocks the performance back when the MAF sensor temp sensor runs hot.
28 August 2010, 07:33 PM
#115
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Independant Dyno Run
First off..... I'm not going down the route of spending my life on dyno's (again!).
When I was last up at Tracktive discussing how and what, we did discuss whether or not we would do any benchmarking or comparitor run's on their Hub Dyno. After a chat we decided it would be a good idea..... but to try and keep it unbiased. Richard will be doing all the mapping on the road for this car, so there is no need for it to go on his dyno from that perspective. Using someone elses dyno would also try to keep everything as open and transparent as possible, so certainly made sense. With this mind I needed to decide who to use.
Off I went to see my old chums down at PowerStation today. I have and will alwasy rate their dyno facility. It utilises a proper dyno cell with proper cooling.
The MAHA dyno they use does seem to under read compared to say a Dyno Dynamics, especially in the torque area. Regardless of this, they are totally independant from everyone else working on this car.... whatever the dyno shows that's what it gets!
The car had been stationary for about an hour and was given one run on the dyno. In hindsight we should of done a couple of runs to get the up-pipe and downpipe hot and also to normalise the inlet air temps.
Based on the mods and the boost it was running I was looking for about 340bhp on PowerStations dyno..... that's exactly what it made! Run was in 5th gear with 1.5bar peak and dropping off like a brick at the top end! To be fair though we did compare the graph against another two JDM STI's of the same year and same mod level and they were identical.
So there we have the baseline dyno run prior to any "real" work being done.
Many thanks to PowerStation for letting me use their rolling road!
I will be back to Litchfields on Tuesday for a (hopeful) wedge of extra power / torque!
First off..... I'm not going down the route of spending my life on dyno's (again!).
When I was last up at Tracktive discussing how and what, we did discuss whether or not we would do any benchmarking or comparitor run's on their Hub Dyno. After a chat we decided it would be a good idea..... but to try and keep it unbiased. Richard will be doing all the mapping on the road for this car, so there is no need for it to go on his dyno from that perspective. Using someone elses dyno would also try to keep everything as open and transparent as possible, so certainly made sense. With this mind I needed to decide who to use.
Off I went to see my old chums down at PowerStation today. I have and will alwasy rate their dyno facility. It utilises a proper dyno cell with proper cooling.
The MAHA dyno they use does seem to under read compared to say a Dyno Dynamics, especially in the torque area. Regardless of this, they are totally independant from everyone else working on this car.... whatever the dyno shows that's what it gets!
The car had been stationary for about an hour and was given one run on the dyno. In hindsight we should of done a couple of runs to get the up-pipe and downpipe hot and also to normalise the inlet air temps.
Based on the mods and the boost it was running I was looking for about 340bhp on PowerStations dyno..... that's exactly what it made!
Run was in 5th gear with 1.5bar peak and dropping off like a brick at the top end! To be fair though we did compare the graph against another two JDM STI's of the same year and same mod level and they were identical. So there we have the baseline dyno run prior to any "real" work being done.
Many thanks to PowerStation for letting me use their rolling road!
I will be back to Litchfields on Tuesday for a (hopeful) wedge of extra power / torque!
29 August 2010, 11:50 PM
#117
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Shaun, you have made me dream everynight I was going to sleep with your Spec C project, now I am drooling already with this one!!!!!
Staying tuned with the most of interest, thank you for sharing this one also with us!!
Staying tuned with the most of interest, thank you for sharing this one also with us!!
31 August 2010, 12:11 PM
#118
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Currently at Litchfield Imports now having the conversion sorted! I'm one of five being done this week! 
Zisis,
Thankyou for the kind words!
I'm one of five being done this week! Zisis,
Thankyou for the kind words!
Last edited by Shaun; 31 August 2010 at 12:13 PM.