Starting again.... with a Hawkeye
14 September 2012, 10:58 AM
#1021
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David its possible to recycle and redistill meth hence the "new" tag to differentiate it.
Not after its been through Shaun's exhaust pipe ! Ugh did I say that?, it conjures up nightmare images....................
The problem is always to be able to guarantee a consistent mix, when doing it on the run. If the car is known to have 60 litres in then you can add 20% easily.and map accurately
But try doing that when you put 25.63 litres.............
So, if you run it with a known quantity of meth and map it accordingly, that'll be OK. But if you cannot guarantee that you have just added exactly the correct amount - you must switch back to the regular SUL map, or run the risk of detting the top off a piston.
David
Not after its been through Shaun's exhaust pipe ! Ugh did I say that?, it conjures up nightmare images....................
The problem is always to be able to guarantee a consistent mix, when doing it on the run. If the car is known to have 60 litres in then you can add 20% easily.and map accurately
But try doing that when you put 25.63 litres.............
So, if you run it with a known quantity of meth and map it accordingly, that'll be OK. But if you cannot guarantee that you have just added exactly the correct amount - you must switch back to the regular SUL map, or run the risk of detting the top off a piston.
David
14 September 2012, 12:39 PM
#1022
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The problem is always to be able to guarantee a consistent mix, when doing it on the run. If the car is known to have 60 litres in then you can add 20% easily.and map accurately
But try doing that when you put 25.63 litres.............
So, if you run it with a known quantity of meth and map it accordingly, that'll be OK. But if you cannot guarantee that you have just added exactly the correct amount - you must switch back to the regular SUL map, or run the risk of detting the top off a piston.
David
But try doing that when you put 25.63 litres.............
So, if you run it with a known quantity of meth and map it accordingly, that'll be OK. But if you cannot guarantee that you have just added exactly the correct amount - you must switch back to the regular SUL map, or run the risk of detting the top off a piston.
David
10ltrs of meth and brim with VPower go in if I'm on the fuel light. Anything below 1/2 a tank of meth mix, can take 25ltrs of VPower and 5ltrs of Meth. Easy!
Pragmatically the meth map shouldn't be that close to the edge anyhow, where a slight deviation in mix would cause your engine to grenade imo.
All in all common sense should prevail (he says lol).
14 September 2012, 12:52 PM
#1023
I personally don't like the brim and hope the mix is right method.
I run a 20% mix which I think is easier than what you propose to do..
Initially I drained the fuel tank the first time to ensure the mix was right. And now to maintain it I carry a 5l or 10l jerry can, when the fuel light is on there's normally about 10l left in the tank of the V-Power/meth mix. Slap in 10 litres, plus another 40 of V-Power and the tank is pretty much brimmed (goes above full on the gauge.)
If you look at it this way, when you add meth the first time with your method, yes you will get 16.6ish% but then after that, by adding 10litres of meth to an already 16.6% mix 10 litre volume (which should be 1.66l meth+8.34l V-Power) then adding approx 40 litres on top equals a new mixture of 11.66l meth + 48.34l V-Power. Thus now creating a now 19.4% mix of meth and V-Power. So you've upped the percentage by 3% on the 2nd fill up using this method, and therefore every tank after will have a similar mix.
So you may as well do a proper 20% mix.
Drain the tank.
Give it a proper 20% mix.
Carry 5l or 10l jerry cans.
When you're on half tank, put in 5 litres meth plus 20 V-Power.
When on the fuel light, put in 10litres meth plus 40 V-Power.
Consistent and accurate
Just my 2pence.
I run a 20% mix which I think is easier than what you propose to do..
Initially I drained the fuel tank the first time to ensure the mix was right. And now to maintain it I carry a 5l or 10l jerry can, when the fuel light is on there's normally about 10l left in the tank of the V-Power/meth mix. Slap in 10 litres, plus another 40 of V-Power and the tank is pretty much brimmed (goes above full on the gauge.)
If you look at it this way, when you add meth the first time with your method, yes you will get 16.6ish% but then after that, by adding 10litres of meth to an already 16.6% mix 10 litre volume (which should be 1.66l meth+8.34l V-Power) then adding approx 40 litres on top equals a new mixture of 11.66l meth + 48.34l V-Power. Thus now creating a now 19.4% mix of meth and V-Power. So you've upped the percentage by 3% on the 2nd fill up using this method, and therefore every tank after will have a similar mix.
So you may as well do a proper 20% mix.
Drain the tank.
Give it a proper 20% mix.
Carry 5l or 10l jerry cans.
When you're on half tank, put in 5 litres meth plus 20 V-Power.
When on the fuel light, put in 10litres meth plus 40 V-Power.
Consistent and accurate
Just my 2pence.
Last edited by ScoobyDoo69; 14 September 2012 at 12:57 PM.
14 September 2012, 01:08 PM
#1024
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I can see the logic in that approach - thanks for putting that up.
I personally wouldn't bother with draining the tank though. As long as the first mix goes in with anything less than a 1/4 of a tank, 12ltrs of Meth (assuming 20%) first and then brim with VPower, should enable a full mix process.
I personally wouldn't bother with draining the tank though. As long as the first mix goes in with anything less than a 1/4 of a tank, 12ltrs of Meth (assuming 20%) first and then brim with VPower, should enable a full mix process.
14 September 2012, 01:13 PM
#1025
No worries.
I think everyone who is choosing to use meth should really think hard about the maths to ensure they don't mess anything up lol.
The starting mix is always going to be different to the maintaining the mix..mix. Sounds like a lot of faffing around, but once you have the mix and you know how to maintain it, it's no hassle at all. Especially for the mileage you do.
I think everyone who is choosing to use meth should really think hard about the maths to ensure they don't mess anything up lol.
The starting mix is always going to be different to the maintaining the mix..mix. Sounds like a lot of faffing around, but once you have the mix and you know how to maintain it, it's no hassle at all. Especially for the mileage you do.
15 September 2012, 08:47 AM
#1027
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Mapping is booked in for October 4th with dyno runs taking place on 5th at Surrey Rolling Road.
Should be interesting to see how it responds.
Should be interesting to see how it responds.
Last edited by Shaun; 16 September 2012 at 08:36 AM.
15 September 2012, 10:02 AM
#1028
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FWIW This is what I've been doing on my spec C. (2.5 321T, 650cc, tmic)
Mapped to 1.6 bar on 15%meth mix at the appropriate AFR for maximum safe power, made 485bhp.
I don't always have meth with me to mix in so it sometimes just runs straight Vpower - on the same map. The effect this has is that it runs a richer AFR than ideal although that keeps cylinder temps down, the knock control system pulls 3-4 degrees of timing and stores it in the learned tables so there is no det. Power drops to 455 but to be honest you barely notice it.
This is my own personal car (wouldn't experiment like this on a customers car) but I've been doing this for the past 4 years with no reliability issues whatsoever. The only thing I notice is that when I put the meth back in, the light throttle zones are a little lumpy for a few miles until the long term fuel trim re-adjusts.
When set up properly the OEM ECU is a cracking piece of kit really!
Mapped to 1.6 bar on 15%meth mix at the appropriate AFR for maximum safe power, made 485bhp.
I don't always have meth with me to mix in so it sometimes just runs straight Vpower - on the same map. The effect this has is that it runs a richer AFR than ideal although that keeps cylinder temps down, the knock control system pulls 3-4 degrees of timing and stores it in the learned tables so there is no det. Power drops to 455 but to be honest you barely notice it.
This is my own personal car (wouldn't experiment like this on a customers car) but I've been doing this for the past 4 years with no reliability issues whatsoever. The only thing I notice is that when I put the meth back in, the light throttle zones are a little lumpy for a few miles until the long term fuel trim re-adjusts.
When set up properly the OEM ECU is a cracking piece of kit really!
15 September 2012, 10:22 AM
#1029
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Very interesting Andy and thanks for adding your data to the mix.
Your use of the OEM knock strategy (utilising appropriately set-up ignition & fueling) has been pretty much how Richard has explained things to me before, with regards to how capable it can be.
This is food for thought and an approach I never considered.
Out of interest, what power do you think you're down by not mapping purely for the 15% meth mix?
Your use of the OEM knock strategy (utilising appropriately set-up ignition & fueling) has been pretty much how Richard has explained things to me before, with regards to how capable it can be.
This is food for thought and an approach I never considered.
Out of interest, what power do you think you're down by not mapping purely for the 15% meth mix?
15 September 2012, 10:56 AM
#1030
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It is mapped properly for the 15% mix, its just when running on Vpower or anything less than 15% that the map is not optimised, in an ideal map I would prefer not rely on the knock strategy to control timing.
You are actually more at risk by running too much methanol, not from a knock perspective but due to running too lean an AFR which can start to overheat things on an extended run.
You are actually more at risk by running too much methanol, not from a knock perspective but due to running too lean an AFR which can start to overheat things on an extended run.
17 September 2012, 11:13 PM
#1033
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It is mapped properly for the 15% mix, its just when running on Vpower or anything less than 15% that the map is not optimised, in an ideal map I would prefer not rely on the knock strategy to control timing.
You are actually more at risk by running too much methanol, not from a knock perspective but due to running too lean an AFR which can start to overheat things on an extended run.
You are actually more at risk by running too much methanol, not from a knock perspective but due to running too lean an AFR which can start to overheat things on an extended run.
Have you ever ran with methanol injected into the intercooler as opposed to mixed with fuel? I find the whole guessing game a little scary in terms of 10L of this and brim the tank etc?
On my Mini (highly modified) I have an Aquamist system which injects via a 1.0mm jet into the intercooler. Assuming equal cylinder distribution of the air/meth mix, we were seeing IAT below ambient temperature and able to pull a lot of fuel / increase timing due to the lower temps/relative octane count. The system is foolproof in the respect of having 2 fuel maps - the second being the fuel trimmed for meth injection. Should the system detect bad flow or any other delivery issue, the failsafe is triggered, injection stops and the map trips back to standard fuel.
I am considering installing the same system on my next subaru (whatever it may be) to look at charge temps and to have power on demand without the need for mixing fuel / needing specific injectors etc etc.
Sorry to derail the thread, but thought I would share my experience with methanol.
Interesting you say the fuel goes LEAN when meth is in the tank. I would have expected it to go dog rich! Ahhh - that smell of burning alcohol out the exhaust...!!!
18 September 2012, 07:18 PM
#1035
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Perhaps I drive with the maturity that your age would dictate! 
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself.
I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos! 
Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself.
I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos! Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
18 September 2012, 08:04 PM
#1037
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This part of the project is not being done for any other reason than to see how it can perform with fuel additives. It's a natural stage to "trial" imo and will add to the information available on this thread.
I'm not suggesting I will stick with a Meth's mix for constant normal use, but based on ScoobyDoo69's explanation of use, it's no where near as much "faffing" as I first envisaged for longer term use.
Maybe I'll be converted.
I'm not suggesting I will stick with a Meth's mix for constant normal use, but based on ScoobyDoo69's explanation of use, it's no where near as much "faffing" as I first envisaged for longer term use.
Maybe I'll be converted.
19 September 2012, 11:23 AM
#1039
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Perhaps I drive with the maturity that your age would dictate!
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself. I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos!
Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself.
I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos! Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
I view that as my way of getting back at the government.
Bob reckons it'll do better when we remap it - but as it has 176,000 miles on it [ in just over 4 years ] I don't think a remap is a good idea.
David APi
19 September 2012, 11:34 AM
#1040
This part of the project is not being done for any other reason than to see how it can perform with fuel additives. It's a natural stage to "trial" imo and will add to the information available on this thread.
I'm not suggesting I will stick with a Meth's mix for constant normal use, but based on ScoobyDoo69's explanation of use, it's no where near as much "faffing" as I first envisaged for longer term use.
Maybe I'll be converted.
I'm not suggesting I will stick with a Meth's mix for constant normal use, but based on ScoobyDoo69's explanation of use, it's no where near as much "faffing" as I first envisaged for longer term use.
Maybe I'll be converted.
19 September 2012, 12:28 PM
#1042
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David,
That's quite impressive coming from you, since I know you drive like the local chavs that frequent Maccy D's.
Einstein RA,
This **** better be worth it!
That's quite impressive coming from you, since I know you drive like the local chavs that frequent Maccy D's.
Einstein RA,
This **** better be worth it!
19 September 2012, 12:34 PM
#1043
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That's an insult! I am much worse than them.
I'm off to hug a tree and feed the dolphins................
I'm off to hug a tree and feed the dolphins................
19 September 2012, 12:43 PM
#1045
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Not a chance, Subaru won't sell many components to rebuild a diesel until the 09 cars. A NEW short motor is about £4 grand plus VAT Plus gaskets at about £600.00 + VAT One Subaru dealer of my acquaintance quoted a customer with a 57 plate car £12000.00 + VAT to rebuild.
He declined their very fair and generous offer.
David
He declined their very fair and generous offer.
David
19 September 2012, 08:06 PM
#1047
Perhaps I drive with the maturity that your age would dictate!
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself. I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos!
Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
317 miles per tank fairly consistently achievable, based on a normal 24mpg which appears to be my normal driving average.
Went on a good run to Southend the week before last and I'm on 240 miles and still got over 1/4 tank left. Worst case scenario of 1/4 equalling 20ltrs of fuel, which equals 105 miles (even based on the normal average of 24mpg), which equates to an estimated 345 on this current tank.
After many years of youth I can now accept that you don't have to give it beans all the time to enjoy yourself.
I'll get my coat, flat cap and thermos! Oh dear... I've seen to become what I once hated.
I'll blame this all on my considered and smooth driving ability.... that's my story anyhow.
Fuel consumption will go up about 10% running methanol, as you have to throw more fuel in for the same AFR.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 19 September 2012 at 08:07 PM.
19 September 2012, 08:18 PM
#1048
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John,
On a serious note 18mpg certainly isn't bad!
Yeah.... I didn't take the extra fuel required in to account on my previous figures. It means I'll have to change up at 1.5k as opposed to 2.5k.
On a serious note 18mpg certainly isn't bad!
Yeah.... I didn't take the extra fuel required in to account on my previous figures. It means I'll have to change up at 1.5k as opposed to 2.5k.
22 September 2012, 12:56 AM
#1049
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wow great thread, took me all night to browse through that, lots of really useful information for anyone looking to upgrade to one of these LM turbo's. After reading this i think ill go for the lm450 billet. Ill need to go fmic anyway as the tiny intercooler setup on the legacy is not ideal and that even with an uprated Hyperflow one! And i needed to clock the compressor housing to make it work with the legacy style tmic, so i dont want to be doing that with my expensive new turbo!
Any regrets over going to the lm-450 billet? How durable is the Zircotec coating. will it last the life of the turbo or need to be re-coated every xx thousand miles?
Does your car have dual avcs heads Shaun?
Any regrets over going to the lm-450 billet? How durable is the Zircotec coating. will it last the life of the turbo or need to be re-coated every xx thousand miles?
Does your car have dual avcs heads Shaun?
Last edited by Legacyb4-Dan; 22 September 2012 at 12:58 AM.
22 September 2012, 11:38 AM
#1050
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Hi Dan,
I'm glad you have found the information and discussion useful.
No regrets at all going for the LM450. It suits my requirements very very well. It will be very interesting how the car responds (in a couple of weeks) to using Methanol. Should give the set-up another nice "kick".
I've had no issues myself with Zircotec coating.
My car only has the inlet VVT. Dual VVT was not brought in until the JDM STI's Hatch onwards.
I'm glad you have found the information and discussion useful.
No regrets at all going for the LM450. It suits my requirements very very well. It will be very interesting how the car responds (in a couple of weeks) to using Methanol. Should give the set-up another nice "kick".
I've had no issues myself with Zircotec coating.
My car only has the inlet VVT. Dual VVT was not brought in until the JDM STI's Hatch onwards.