Starting again.... with a Hawkeye
30 August 2011, 08:42 AM
#481
Just looking at the logs between last nights runs and previous runs earlier in the year...
Last nights runs were showing inlet air temps, some +9degs over other runs. I have found that increases in inlet temps cause torque to be decreased, so I can only assume it has a negative effect on BHP as well.
It's entirely probably that this is starting to point towards charge air temp increases effecting potential BHP.
Last nights runs were showing inlet air temps, some +9degs over other runs. I have found that increases in inlet temps cause torque to be decreased, so I can only assume it has a negative effect on BHP as well.
It's entirely probably that this is starting to point towards charge air temp increases effecting potential BHP.
30 August 2011, 08:46 AM
#482
The ECU was loving it and at no point did Richard have to retard ignition during this part of the mapping. Det cans were as clean as a whistle (to back that up). Based on his experience (and also things were getting a tad warm), he suggested we stopped there. I asked him if he could try another +1deg of ignition and he said he would be amazed if it would of taken it..... we called it a day! lol
The reason I am asking is for us road users to know when enough is enough when playing in the autobahn or comparing setups between friends on a private road
30 August 2011, 02:39 PM
#484
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30 August 2011, 02:41 PM
#485
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Did this for two hours!
30 August 2011, 03:05 PM
#488
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Yeah up to a point. The water spray is very effective on the JDM's as it has auto mode. It makes a big difference. However don't lose sight of the fact that this turbo should produce 450bhp! Something needs attention as we are way way off that.
I have some more information that I'm just writing up.... the mist is starting to clear!
Give me 15 mins to get it posted.
I have some more information that I'm just writing up.... the mist is starting to clear!
Give me 15 mins to get it posted.
30 August 2011, 03:09 PM
#489
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Yeah up to a point. The water spray is very effective on the JDM's as it has auto mode. It makes a big difference. However don't lose sight of the fact that this turbo should produce 450bhp! Something needs attention as we are way way off that.
I have some more information that I'm just writing up.... the mist is starting to clear!
Give me 15 mins to get it posted.
I have some more information that I'm just writing up.... the mist is starting to clear!
Give me 15 mins to get it posted.
So with the extra 15 hp gained this weekend how much hp do you have now?, I can't be bothered to go back and look even if it is there from before.....
David
30 August 2011, 03:20 PM
#490
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I'm trying to do my post update and I keep getting notifications of some gimp asking about my power output! 
350+bhp on Delta Dash at the wheels.
Hold on to your horses for THE update!
30 August 2011, 03:27 PM
#491
30 August 2011, 03:38 PM
#492
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Keeping everything transparant and reporting back the good and the bad.....
I decided to take a trip up to PowerStation this morning for another run to compare against my previous run (which was on the non Billet LM400).
Don't worry I'm not reverting back to being a Dyno Queen.... this is only the 2nd run I have had on a real dyno in over 12 months. That's a record for me! However I thought it was important to consolidate my Delta Dash / Road Dyno data.
Peak figures were unimpressingly low.... but I already knew that would be the case. What wouldn't of helped these figures today, is that the car had ran four partially abortive runs as we had trouble getting the dyno to "brake" effectively. After the fourth run a reboot of the dyno sorted it. Obviously things were already getting toasty, so not the best.... but we have what we have.
You can see this on the wheel power curve... it dies on it's **** after 5600rpm.
I'll come back to this in a bit though.....
First off the "curves" look really nice and smooth, but you'll notice that not only does the wheel power seem to die from 5600-5800rpm (which wouldn't of been helped by the heat build up of the abortive runs), but the flywheel power only increases by circa 20bhp from that point for the next 2k rpm.
Considering we have a much bigger wheel in this turbo, something would appear to be causing this. When you also consider how much boost it is producing (it will pull 1.5bar to the rev limit!), there appears to be some form of temp issue.
In all honesty I still can't believe how much boost it is able to run on the standard airbox.... seems pretty impressive. It's a shame it doesn't relate to raw BHP.
Let's put the peak figures to one side.... we need to look in to this and resolve it, but that won't happen today.
Let's look at some other interesting "bits".....
First off the spool of the LM450. If you look back at the non Billet graph from PowerStation, low and behold it produces 1bar at the same rpm!! I told you it was good. Obviously the Billet LM400 was slightly better at spooling than the non Billet LM400 (by about 200rpm), so in essence I have lost that 200rpm..... but don't forget this turbo *should* allow me to achieve 450bhp. IF we assume that will happen in the near future, this is one **** of a turbo!
Let's not get carried away yet though, as it needs to achieve that BHP figure first.
Spool comparisons are good, but not always totally indicative (especially when going up in wheel size). What interests me more is the actual BHP and TORQUE created at those low revs. So here we have the LM400 (non Billet) run against the new Billet LM450:
The "higher" lines are of the LM450 and personally I think it's fairly amazing that the Billet LM450 sticks with the LM400 lowdown.
The LM450 picks up about 10bhp/10lbft in the mid range.
I think this is all pretty interesting stuff.
I also went up to see Litchfield's today.....
Iain called Turbo Dynamics whilst I was there to let them know of the results and their take on what the "issue" could be.
They would suggest it is a charge temp issue and/or the TMIC is struggling with the airflow requirements and some form of "backing up" is happening. All the data from the turbo spec to the mapping changes (more fuel, ignition and boost), they think strongly indicates this. Couple that with the shape of the curve at higher rpm, something certainly seems to be holding it back.
Onwards and upwards.
I decided to take a trip up to PowerStation this morning for another run to compare against my previous run (which was on the non Billet LM400).
Don't worry I'm not reverting back to being a Dyno Queen.... this is only the 2nd run I have had on a real dyno in over 12 months. That's a record for me!
However I thought it was important to consolidate my Delta Dash / Road Dyno data.Peak figures were unimpressingly low.... but I already knew that would be the case. What wouldn't of helped these figures today, is that the car had ran four partially abortive runs as we had trouble getting the dyno to "brake" effectively. After the fourth run a reboot of the dyno sorted it. Obviously things were already getting toasty, so not the best.... but we have what we have.
You can see this on the wheel power curve... it dies on it's **** after 5600rpm.
I'll come back to this in a bit though.....
First off the "curves" look really nice and smooth, but you'll notice that not only does the wheel power seem to die from 5600-5800rpm (which wouldn't of been helped by the heat build up of the abortive runs), but the flywheel power only increases by circa 20bhp from that point for the next 2k rpm.
Considering we have a much bigger wheel in this turbo, something would appear to be causing this. When you also consider how much boost it is producing (it will pull 1.5bar to the rev limit!), there appears to be some form of temp issue.
In all honesty I still can't believe how much boost it is able to run on the standard airbox.... seems pretty impressive. It's a shame it doesn't relate to raw BHP.
Let's put the peak figures to one side.... we need to look in to this and resolve it, but that won't happen today.
Let's look at some other interesting "bits".....
First off the spool of the LM450. If you look back at the non Billet graph from PowerStation, low and behold it produces 1bar at the same rpm!! I told you it was good.
Obviously the Billet LM400 was slightly better at spooling than the non Billet LM400 (by about 200rpm), so in essence I have lost that 200rpm..... but don't forget this turbo *should* allow me to achieve 450bhp. IF we assume that will happen in the near future, this is one **** of a turbo!Let's not get carried away yet though, as it needs to achieve that BHP figure first.
Spool comparisons are good, but not always totally indicative (especially when going up in wheel size). What interests me more is the actual BHP and TORQUE created at those low revs. So here we have the LM400 (non Billet) run against the new Billet LM450:
The "higher" lines are of the LM450 and personally I think it's fairly amazing that the Billet LM450 sticks with the LM400 lowdown.
The LM450 picks up about 10bhp/10lbft in the mid range.
I think this is all pretty interesting stuff.
I also went up to see Litchfield's today.....
Iain called Turbo Dynamics whilst I was there to let them know of the results and their take on what the "issue" could be.
They would suggest it is a charge temp issue and/or the TMIC is struggling with the airflow requirements and some form of "backing up" is happening. All the data from the turbo spec to the mapping changes (more fuel, ignition and boost), they think strongly indicates this. Couple that with the shape of the curve at higher rpm, something certainly seems to be holding it back.
Onwards and upwards.
30 August 2011, 03:55 PM
#495
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David,
Or was that more Hair?
Now... this is what my pea brain does not understand, as the turbo is certainly producing the boost, so in my none educated world, I would assume it has the air.... even if it's hot air.
Or was that more Hair?
Now... this is what my pea brain does not understand, as the turbo is certainly producing the boost, so in my none educated world, I would assume it has the air.... even if it's hot air.
30 August 2011, 03:58 PM
#496
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I really am resistant to fitting more guages in my car, but let's see what happens with the intercooler changes first. Never say never.
Last edited by Shaun; 30 August 2011 at 04:00 PM.
30 August 2011, 04:29 PM
#498
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Just something I would like to highlight again, and whilst I know alot of us mere mortals are "coming around" to the fact that peak BHP is not the be all and end all, I just want to highlight that even further (which also enables me to highlight how great these LM turbos are as well).....
Many thanks to "ScoobyDoo69" for allowing me to use his graph as an example.
Obviously this is not a apples and apples comparison, but it's an interesting comparison none the less.
ScoobyDoo69 has a modded Blobeye STI with a VF35 running meth.
Make no mistake this is a great power figure for this state of tune, and whilst it is 30bhp down on my peak figures..... on the face of it you perhaps wouldn't think that was much. Well that's until you compare the whole curves between the two cars:
ScoobyDoo69's modded Blobeye with VF35 on meth:
Billet LM450 on VPower:
Although the Billet LM450 is a much bigger turbo it gives more lowdown power. The midrange is just monsterous in comparison, more than the peak figure differences would indicate. The powerband between peak torque and peak power is over 3k rpm on the Billet LM450.
Like I said ScoobyDoo's level is nothing to be sniffed at, but don't take peak figures in isolation.... look at everything below the curve as that is the important bit for road use. That's the purpose of this specific comparison.
Many thanks to "ScoobyDoo69" for allowing me to use his graph as an example.
Obviously this is not a apples and apples comparison, but it's an interesting comparison none the less.
ScoobyDoo69 has a modded Blobeye STI with a VF35 running meth.
Make no mistake this is a great power figure for this state of tune, and whilst it is 30bhp down on my peak figures..... on the face of it you perhaps wouldn't think that was much. Well that's until you compare the whole curves between the two cars:
ScoobyDoo69's modded Blobeye with VF35 on meth:
Billet LM450 on VPower:
Although the Billet LM450 is a much bigger turbo it gives more lowdown power. The midrange is just monsterous in comparison, more than the peak figure differences would indicate. The powerband between peak torque and peak power is over 3k rpm on the Billet LM450.
Like I said ScoobyDoo's level is nothing to be sniffed at, but don't take peak figures in isolation.... look at everything below the curve as that is the important bit for road use. That's the purpose of this specific comparison.
Last edited by Shaun; 30 August 2011 at 04:37 PM.
30 August 2011, 04:32 PM
#499
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30 August 2011, 04:35 PM
#501
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Ahhh... I apologise mate. I thought it had been modded (the VF) with that power figure. Even better then! 
I suspect the meth is really giving you a good push in the right direction.
Great results.
**Previous post edited to reflect the state of tune for ScoobyDoo69's awesome results.
I suspect the meth is really giving you a good push in the right direction.
Great results.
**Previous post edited to reflect the state of tune for ScoobyDoo69's awesome results.
Last edited by Shaun; 30 August 2011 at 04:38 PM.
30 August 2011, 04:44 PM
#502
Thanks ! Torque on other rolling roads is in the 365lb/ft area also 
I would love to mod my VF35 with some porting, and maybe an uprated actuator, as I think there is more to have from it. But it will do for now.
Interesting to see just how much extra power the twinscroll gives from 3-5krpm really. Big big increase in shove there.
I feel that on the road, with the increased air flow, you will be seeing more power than represented on the dyno, especially the way the whp figure seems to just dip so rapidly! Is it possible that the car was indeed pulling timing, or even boost? I take it this wasn't monitored during the runs?
Torque on other rolling roads is in the 365lb/ft area also I would love to mod my VF35 with some porting, and maybe an uprated actuator, as I think there is more to have from it. But it will do for now.
Interesting to see just how much extra power the twinscroll gives from 3-5krpm really. Big big increase in shove there.
I feel that on the road, with the increased air flow, you will be seeing more power than represented on the dyno, especially the way the whp figure seems to just dip so rapidly! Is it possible that the car was indeed pulling timing, or even boost? I take it this wasn't monitored during the runs?
30 August 2011, 04:47 PM
#503
What I find interesting is why scoobydoo's torque curve starts dropping after 6k whereas Shaun's torque curve starts going downhil after 5k.
The reason I am saying this is that my torque curve is similar to Shaun's (curve stays flat at the top for a relatively narrow 2k band) and my car has only got a filter, exhaust and remap.
Don't get me wrong, absolute torque figures in Shaun's case are higher.
What did Richard say about this?
Edit: the fuksia curve is boost as I understand which looks good so the ECU doesn't look to pull boost.
The reason I am saying this is that my torque curve is similar to Shaun's (curve stays flat at the top for a relatively narrow 2k band) and my car has only got a filter, exhaust and remap.
Don't get me wrong, absolute torque figures in Shaun's case are higher.
What did Richard say about this?
Edit: the fuksia curve is boost as I understand which looks good so the ECU doesn't look to pull boost.
Last edited by fpan; 30 August 2011 at 04:51 PM.
30 August 2011, 05:48 PM
#504
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Thanks ! Torque on other rolling roads is in the 365lb/ft area also
I would love to mod my VF35 with some porting, and maybe an uprated actuator, as I think there is more to have from it. But it will do for now.
Interesting to see just how much extra power the twinscroll gives from 3-5krpm really. Big big increase in shove there.
I feel that on the road, with the increased air flow, you will be seeing more power than represented on the dyno, especially the way the whp figure seems to just dip so rapidly! Is it possible that the car was indeed pulling timing, or even boost? I take it this wasn't monitored during the runs?
Torque on other rolling roads is in the 365lb/ft area also I would love to mod my VF35 with some porting, and maybe an uprated actuator, as I think there is more to have from it. But it will do for now.
Interesting to see just how much extra power the twinscroll gives from 3-5krpm really. Big big increase in shove there.
I feel that on the road, with the increased air flow, you will be seeing more power than represented on the dyno, especially the way the whp figure seems to just dip so rapidly! Is it possible that the car was indeed pulling timing, or even boost? I take it this wasn't monitored during the runs?
I never logged the run with Delta Dash, but the shape of the curve would not appear to indicate it is pulling timing.... you normally get a sudden step in the flywheel curve when that happens. The more I look at the current dyno run, the more I appreciate how "fat" it is (BHP wise). It's very very smooth and wide, but certainly being limited in some way as you would half expect the power to keep climbing, especially with the boost being held so well.
30 August 2011, 05:51 PM
#505
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Any "issues" aside (and we do appear to have something holding it back), it's quite common to see drop off in torque earlier, if you make the boost and torque early on in the rev range. Especially on twinscroll turbos.
Last edited by Shaun; 30 August 2011 at 05:52 PM.
30 August 2011, 05:58 PM
#506
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shaunee
Before you no it you will have spent as much as your old spec c
I learnt the hard way with my evo 8
Much prefer my evo 6rs at 380 bhp 365 ft lbs of torque
Cost me £60 for a re map,, 3 " exhaust and hks induction was on when i bought the car
Runs 1.6 bar peak
Ran 12 dead at 117.2 mph at pod with a terrible 1.91 60 ft time,,
Will be going back to get a 11.7 at 117 mph,,
Love the car and early spool.
Good you are trying things but i would stick to the old lm400 mate
Early spool is the daddy
Bigger turbo;s equals more money to get the most out of them
Can you tell me what its cost in labour, injectors, turbo, extra to change turbo again, etc,,,
Mapping
I am guessing near £5500
Thats without a better tmic and induction,,
Sorry mate should of bought an evo 9gt 400/400 for as little as £200
Best bit about the new age scoobys are the 6 speed box is stronger and engines are good upto late 400;s internals
I like the look of a white hawk eye aswell
But the vf turbo;s are rubbish
So need a turbo swaop straight away
Before you no it you will have spent as much as your old spec c
I learnt the hard way with my evo 8
Much prefer my evo 6rs at 380 bhp 365 ft lbs of torque
Cost me £60 for a re map,, 3 " exhaust and hks induction was on when i bought the car
Runs 1.6 bar peak
Ran 12 dead at 117.2 mph at pod with a terrible 1.91 60 ft time,,
Will be going back to get a 11.7 at 117 mph,,
Love the car and early spool.
Good you are trying things but i would stick to the old lm400 mate
Early spool is the daddy
Bigger turbo;s equals more money to get the most out of them
Can you tell me what its cost in labour, injectors, turbo, extra to change turbo again, etc,,,
Mapping
I am guessing near £5500
Thats without a better tmic and induction,,
Sorry mate should of bought an evo 9gt 400/400 for as little as £200
Best bit about the new age scoobys are the 6 speed box is stronger and engines are good upto late 400;s internals
I like the look of a white hawk eye aswell
But the vf turbo;s are rubbish
So need a turbo swaop straight away
Last edited by evonorth; 30 August 2011 at 06:09 PM.
30 August 2011, 06:09 PM
#507
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Paul,
I was thinking the other day why you hadn't given me a "dressing down" by now!
Truth be told, I like doing all this stuff and get more enjoyment out of it than having the end product. Sad but true.
I would 100% agree with you that Stage 1 mods rule for the cost / performance they provide.
LM400 has gone mate.... so in for a penny in for a pound (or several)!
It was a toss up between blowing £4k on a holiday to Vegas or spending money on the car..... the car won as it will last me longer that two weeks of holiday memories. Anyway... I did Vegas a couple of years back. lol
Glad to hear you're still loving the EVO.
I was thinking the other day why you hadn't given me a "dressing down" by now!
Truth be told, I like doing all this stuff and get more enjoyment out of it than having the end product. Sad but true.
I would 100% agree with you that Stage 1 mods rule for the cost / performance they provide.
LM400 has gone mate.... so in for a penny in for a pound (or several)!
It was a toss up between blowing £4k on a holiday to Vegas or spending money on the car..... the car won as it will last me longer that two weeks of holiday memories.
Anyway... I did Vegas a couple of years back. lolGlad to hear you're still loving the EVO.
30 August 2011, 06:12 PM
#508
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Good to hear you are trying new things my friend
I am having another go at the mlrss snett and teeside
Rob sold his evo 6rs for a mk5 gti
its up for sale now though and is looking for a big spec evo/scooby
I am having another go at the mlrss snett and teeside
Rob sold his evo 6rs for a mk5 gti
its up for sale now though and is looking for a big spec evo/scooby
30 August 2011, 06:16 PM
#509
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He's worse than me!!!!
Good luck with the MLRSS.... I'm sure you will do well mate.
30 August 2011, 06:22 PM
#510
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Can you tell me what its cost in labour, injectors, turbo, extra to change turbo again, etc,,,
Mapping
I am guessing near £5500
Thats without a better tmic and induction,,
Sorry mate should of bought an evo 9gt 400/400 for as little as £200
Best bit about the new age scoobys are the 6 speed box is stronger and engines are good upto late 400;s internals
I like the look of a white hawk eye aswell
But the vf turbo;s are rubbish
So need a turbo swaop straight away
Mapping
I am guessing near £5500
Thats without a better tmic and induction,,
Sorry mate should of bought an evo 9gt 400/400 for as little as £200
Best bit about the new age scoobys are the 6 speed box is stronger and engines are good upto late 400;s internals
I like the look of a white hawk eye aswell
But the vf turbo;s are rubbish
So need a turbo swaop straight away
I wouldn't say the VF's are rubbish as they are great as a quick spooling car for road use.... however they are limited on BHP. All depends on what you want really.
Swings and roadabouts really as the engines are strong and transmission is ultra strong (as you say).