Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Jeez John, I know you know your stuff fella but read my post again! it was mainly aimed at Shauns considerations for his future mods.

MY POINT (IMO of course) I wasnt singling out the Chevron TMIC as poor, I personally at the point of deciding whether or not to go away from OE TMIC could not see the sense in purchasing an after market TMIC which although may improve things ultimately would not be as efficient as a good FMIC, at the mid 450bhp mark and possibly more the Chevron (and others) may still be ok, however if afterwards you decide to go further I think i (& others) may have regretted going to an uprated TMIC instead of going for a FMIC.

The point of cooling down any TMIC or FMIC, fair enough cooling anything down will help

Shauns car with a LM450 billet, your car with your set up and my car (pre FMIC) will all run fine with the OE TMIC, however they will all run even better with a FMIC..............> FACT! FMIC all day long and you know it

Getting snappy in your old age fella

Lee.

Shaun

This thread just perked up a notch then!

I didn't really want to get drawn in to this debate.... simply because I have no personal data to backup any "debate".

But.... Andy Forrest ran just under 500bhp on his OE TMIC, when he took part (and won his class) in his SPEC C during ScoobySprint. Now there are caveats to that set-up that I'm not in a position to discuss right here, but there was very good reasons why Andy chose to stick with his OE TMIC and it wasn't because of money.

Lee,
One of the "Chevron" cars that John is referring to is that of Jon Beech. He ran close to 500bhp and was highly ranked when he did TA a couple of years back (you may of heard of him), with the TMIC that John is referring to. Rich has experience of this specific TMIC and knows first hand how good it works, even under hard competition track conditions. It surprised a lot of people.

14N-FR

iTrader: (3)

What you have to remember is that the TMIC Andy is running is larger than the one in the Hawkeye.

I found this out when I got my forged 321T build mapped last year by him. He said my TMIC was holding me back from more power and said the TMIC in his Spec C was larger than the one in my Hawkeye STi.

Shaun

That's news to me... Andy told me specifically (and I quote) "I have ran my spec C up to approx 500bhp on the std intercooler." and the TMIC on my car (JDM STI) is the same size as the one on my previous SPEC C.... in fact my JDM Hawkeye version is actually supposed to be more efficient.

johnfelstead

No disrespect Lee, but your post did sugest people avoid the Chevron TMIC, and that was based on a complete lack of knowledge of what was going on at TOTB and what was being used.

I dont agree with you at all regarding your FACT, an efficient TMIC will work far better than a poor FMIC install, and for most people even a good FMIC gives zero benefit over the later spec OEM TMIC's for the majority of the time, yet gives plenty of negatives when you consider the work involved in mounting them properly, cutting up bodywork and chassis panels and then ensuring the pipes dont blow off. The engine bay looks aweful on a lot of these FMIC installs too, especially when people fit induction kits that do nothing but suck hot air in.

The stock TMIC has been proven time and again, that on a throttle response focused handling course it can outperform far more tuned FMIC equipped cars, despite having to lug around 400kg's more weight in my case.

Discussing your thoughts is a good thing, but stating opinions based on asumptions not even close to the reality of what was happening can do a lot of damage and doesnt help move the debate forward.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

If it came accross that I was aiming my thoughts specifically at one manufacturer of TMIC it was not meant that way at all, sorry if this was mis leading.

I know after back to back running of a car with mods at 420bhp and roughly 400ftlbs that a OE TMIC is definitely a restriction in comparrison to running a (in my case a Perrin) FMIC. I am suprised you continue to question this? The OE may be a very capable piece of kit, but specifically in my case where the only change was a move away from a OE TMIC to a FMIC there is absolutely no doubting the gains, if you want to question this further I would invite you to discuss this with the person who knows best about my car > RB.

Thank fully getting back on subject on Shauns comment and also to again disagree with another of your comments, when I ordered my kit from Ian Litchfield I asked what would be a restriction on getting power from my new LM420, Ian answered the stock air box & the TMIC both Ian & Powerstation believed (at the time of my enquiries) that you should really upgrade to a FMIC to run 420bhp safely and to get the most out of the turbo, Ian went on to also recommend an induction kit. Given my limited experience I took his advice and bought the induction kit, I later moved on to the FMIC which finally released the extra torque. (all facts John)

For me my aim with my car is to run a really quick road car & track day car, I have been to Elvington to which I think you are reffering to and I can imagine on the tighter courses that the extra throttle response must help in a small way, but this fact alone would be disrespecting driver talent also. I am certain if you moved to a FMIC with your present set up your results would be equally impressive.

Running my car around my local track I also want good throttle response with very little lag, but in the last few months I also believe that the extra BHP & torque also would help as well, I am happy with my latest round of mods to get more bhp & torque even though they "may?" lose me a little throttle response, but I think the extra power will be worth the trade off on the faster circuits.

I hope my thoughts on what I have actually done with my car and what I have experieced help move this debate forward, I hope it helps others too. I do not have the car experience that you have so far, my history was racing motorbikes, but having only done three trackdays my set up was good enough to put me in to 4th place in Time Attack this year at Oulton Park even though I was clearly giving away 150>200bhp on the cars ahead of me. I think the great set up I was running with the wise choices that I have made with Richard Bulmers help and assistance helped greatly

Cheers,
Lee.

johnfelstead

Lee, you actually said "I would also not use the after market TMIC fitted on the Chevron car that John has reffered to" You dont get more direct about an item than that! Even if you didnt think you said that in your own head.

A couple of quotes from Andy Forrest made in 2007 talking about his road car...

"I still have the OE airbox on my car with a cold air feed. Running 450P 480T on OE tmic and std headers (not ported)

Don't underestimate the potential of a lot of the OE stuff ! "

"I have ran it up to 6400 rpm in top which is almost 170mph (185 speedo) and it only pulled 1.5 deg of timing above 5800rpm.
With a few 'adjustments' the Sti TMIC takes a bit of beating having an efficient turbo helps too"

So get testing Shaun, should be interesting to see how you get on.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

^^^ unfortunately I never had my car on the rollers prior to the FMIC going on, I only put it on the rollers recently to help choose my next upgrade. However with my own experience which I know is the same as a lot of other peoples out there my car was simply A LOT quicker after the FMIC was fitted, after Matt got out of my car after the map tweek due to FMIC fittment he stated straight away it would be a lot quicker..... and it was.

I will leave it to the likes of Richard, Harvey, Powerstation and others who know a lot more about the details to explain why this is so, but you cant get away from the fact that fitting a FMIC will unleash more power.... getting back to my original statement > unleash the torque Shaun

Lee.

andy00v7

A good project Shaun

Andy

Shaun

Hi Andy,
Thank you.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Approx 20 months ago when I was looking at upgrading my turbo I found the advice I was recieving from so called specialists to be very mixed, some (think it was either AET or Garret who ran a 06 Spec C test car?) said you could run up to 500bhp on the std TMIC, others (specifically Powerstation) said you will have issues over 400hp on the std TMIC.

I ended up opting for the LM420 with the std TMIC, for over 12 months I was not aware of any restrictions with this set up, when I posted my Time Attack thread I decided to upgrade the car in many ways, after getting advice from lots of people (including you Shaun ) I decided to upgrade to a FMIC & FMOC for purely reliability reasons whilst on track.

It was only after the new map tweek was completed that I found out that there was a performance gain, I believe the you call it the "EGT's"? because the car was running cooler I believe Matt stated they increased the timing by 3 degrees which helps? not sure about the technical stuff to be honest I just know it was clearly quicker afterwards, the interesting thing will be to see it if you stay TMIC and then go FMIC if you have the same gains, I am certain because you are talking about a larger turbo the restrictions will be more so therefore the move to a larger quality FMIC will better?

Lee.

Shaun

Lee,
I think some things have been taken out of context and mixed up within the "bigger" debate on intercoolers.

Let me reiterate my aims and logic behind what I'm doing.....

Simply put I want to see what is possible out of the OE inlet gubbins and OE intercooler, in respect to bolting on a new Billet LM450bhp turbo.

Based on information I have gained from individuals that have already tested a number of these areas, I believe that there could be more performance to be gleaned from these said OE items. I do have more reservation on the inlet side than I do the OE TMIC... that I can say.

However, it is not as straight forward as that as I have been informed of certain constraints that may rear their head in doing this.

Other individuals have achieved far in excess (bhp wise) of what I'm looking at achieving, backing those bhp figures up with proven sprint results and 1/4m times. However.... this does not constitute (and I have been quite open about this) that the same results would be achieved on a track or even on the road, without any form of issue for all circumstances.

I have tried to allude to some of the potential constraints, but am mindful that I don't own the right to go in to detail about some known constraints that others have found, until I have personally discovered that information myself based on my own results. That is purely down to respect of the people that have been so kind in giving me information, even though I'm not spending my hard earned with them.

You can't judge the restriction of said items based on BHP alone..... it's a lot more complicated (actually it isn't in reality - physics are pretty easy to grasp when you realise the real drivers behind it all) than that. I will go in to this when I have gained the results myself (and also at the same time, given due credit to the individuals that have been gracious to provide me with information that support the reasoning).

At anything approaching the BHP level I hope to attain, and if I were going to be using my car for the remit that you are, I would without a shadow of a doubt be changing the intercooler NOW. However, my remit is not as yours so I am seeing what can be achieved at the best value for money for the remit I want, which is a 90% road car and 10% public track day car.

Also... based on what I have been informed of and seems perfectly logical, I don't expect to hit the full potential of the LM450 without changing the intercooler / induction. I have been upfront about this also. However, the question is how much will the difference be and what will it cost to gain that full potential.

If (let's just say for argument sake) I achieved 440bhp/412lbft with just the turbo change, but achieved 460bhp/432lbft with a £1600 worth intercooler / fitting..... would that sound great value for money? This is a theoretical question with only a single comparison (peak figures), but the thought inducing theory behind this all stands as to what I want to find out. Compare that with what I currently have which is 398/384 and you may understand where I'm coming from.

Assuming everything goes to plan (does it ever) the information I have gained and shared then gives others informed data to decide what they wish to do.

I fully expect the first steps in this to be fairly negative and I'm prepared for the fact that a different inlet and intercooler will be needed (these have all but been paid for, been identified and supplier contacted). However, the logic of my information tells me that there is room to play and hence why I'm bothering with this.

If it goes **** up I will tell everyone..... if it goes well, you won't hear the last of it!

I hope this helps to clear-up where I'm coming from and my expectations / goals.

johnfelstead

Lee, you dont have to use a FMIC to improve the eficiency of the charge cooling on a Subaru.

I am not saying there is no benefit from going away from the OEM TMIC, but i am 100% disputing your FACT that you need to fit a FMIC to achieve impresive and worthwhile results. I am also trying to get you to realise that your own experiences are very limited and it's far from wise to make the sort of statements you have been doing. Your opening opinions were so wide of the mark it required a response.

I'll give you an scenario which you may find relevent and will hopefully make you think a bit deeper about this, you started off making some pretty strong statements which were wide of the mark on a number of fronts, so lets consider part of what you said regarding heat soak meaning a TMIC was a bad idea.

In your application, Time Attack, you have zero issues with heat soak (if that was actually happening whilst you waited to go on track) of a TMIC, because a TMIC will be down to the same temperature by the start of your flying lap as a FMIC would be if both had the same eficiency, it takes very little time once air is flowing to cool a heat soaked IC off load.

Now install a TMIC with a higher eficiency core than your FMIC and you will achieve better charge temp cooling and have benefits with respect to ease of instalation, reliability of pipe connections, weight distribution and throttle response. In that scenario TMIC can be better than FMIC.

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Shaun. All this talk about bhp gains, relative to the ££`s spent, isnt there a safety/reliability issue to take into account on your turbo and engine, again relative to the money, when you run "higher" power with a tmic, especially as you will be using it 90% of the time on our congested highways? In laymans terms, aint it safer to run a fmic if the bhp is going up and your stuck in traffic all day?

Steve T

iTrader: (14)

Just found this thread. Great read. Steve.

Shaun

Reliability / safety is and always has been paramount, with any work I have had done, whether it be this car or the Spec C before. That is, unless I decide to throw caution to the wind..... this is not one of those times though.

Your example of this being thrown into question, based on your example is not reality in my logic (to the point that reliability is called in to question). What do you think my ECU does and my chosen mapper is for! Anyway... it does not take long to reduce temps once normal airflow is resumed.

Of course common sense prevails in most situations and I have always been mindful of any heatsoak (whether my car produces 300 or 450bhp), and hence the reason why I have never thrashed the car from situations outside of the norm (heatsoak wise). Mechanical sympathy accounts for a lot in my book.

Do I really want to buy something that will enable me to thrash it "better" after being in stationary traffic.... I doubt that will be part of my Project remit.

Steve,
Glad you're finding it a great read.

johnfelstead

You get far worse heat soak in the MAF sensor that the TMIC when sat in stationary traffic for any length of time, and it's the temperature sensor in the MAF sensor that the ECU is using to adjust the engine mapping to compensate for high temperature.

In other words, it's a none issue if your engine mapper knows what he is doing.

Shaun

John,
You need to wind your neck in as I don't like having to agree with you anymore than once per year.... it ruins my karma!

However based on some of the "attitude" in your posting style recently, I would suggest you and I have had a total role reversal on here! Don't get me wrong.... I love it!

As you were gents....

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I know where your coming from Shaun, I accept that I am aiming to have my car ready for possibly more extreme circumstances so everyones needs arent always the same however I know you write these threads for others to read and use and hopefully it helps others, part of the reason I have been clear about my cars gains is not only to inform you (with your experience I expect you knew about this already) but for others who read the thread as well.

As stated above it drove me crazy getting advice when I was looking for 400+ because every phone call to supposed experts gave me completely different answers

If you have the time and patience to take one step at a time it will be good for those following in your foot steps to use your words of wisdom as a pointer of what can or cannot be expected from certain modifications

John, the statement I made about the TMIC could / should have been explained deeper when I first wrote the message, to be honest at the time I was thinking more about writing about my own experience of running my set up with and without the FMIC, in particular my thought on this I think where relevant because it would appear at the point where I was running my OE tmic my set up was very similar to where Shaun is heading, Shauns with the billet 450 will / should have more poke though.

Your statement that my experiences are limited are correct, however I have ran a car back to back from OE tmic > fmic so I have a valid experience with this which can & should be shared, its what the thread is about.

The one thing I should add is > I think having very little experience like the other 99% of people who post on Snet means that I am looking for a one hit solution when I go to my chosen tuner, when I read yours, Shaun's, JGM's, Andy F's posts to be honest I dont get half of it...... just being honest, but most people like me cant / dont watch the ECU information on the drive like you guys, its simply sit in and drive, and thats the only info I can give. My backside sitting in my car pre & post fmic knows it was much quicker, the person who carried out all the mapping is apparently very good as well.

Lee.

14N-FR

iTrader: (3)

He mapped my car at the start of this year and when I got figures lower than expected he said it was down to my TMIC and the fact he couldn't run any more boost safely.

So there seems to be conflicting stories.

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

That all makes sense, thanks for putting me "in my place"... I was just thinking back to situations like at the MLR meet at Silverstone. Waiting for 5-10 minutes in a line with the engine running and then its flat out for a minute or so. I wondered if fitting a fmic would remove any risk in situations like that or an occasion where the same thing happened on the highways.
Brill project Shaun,,,,, keep us all posted on all your thoughts
PS: (injectors are working a treatcheers)

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Me too. Im just trying to learn

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

^^^ me too fella, unfortunately though all too frequently if you put a toe out of place and make a mistake you get blasted

Shaun

Not really as it's not just about a power limit for the TMIC. As I have said there are other things that need to be considered and there are caveats. Some of those caveats (depending on set-up etc) would dictate that it may not be adequate for "Joe Bloggs".

What a tuner may run on his own car, maybe quite different to what a tuner would run on a customers car.

Like I have already said, I don't expect to being able to release the full potential of my turbo on the OE TMIC. Andy has been gracious enough to let me know what constraints he found, so I aim (for this first step) to keep within these constraints.

Shaun

Hopefully..... that's what this project is about.

I'm learning as much as the next man.

johnfelstead

When you make statements of fact that you really dont have the knowledge or information to back up you should expect to get "blasted".

We are all learning, or at least i hope so.

johnfelstead

Silverstone was pretty bad in terms of engine bay heat soak, i think having the queue behind the pit buildings one side and an earth mound the other meant that you had no airflow to the car, so you were building heat under the bonnet more than usual.

There was a drop off in performance there, but that was down to how hot the MAF sensor got, FMIC or TMIC on the stock ECU it would make no difference, because the ECU is just taking it's reading from the MAF and backs off the engine performance based on that reading. My own MAF sensor temp was up above 60 degrees C, the ECU mapping will be backing off performance once you see above 20 degrees C based on my experience. (This is MAF temp, not IC temp!)

There was and is no problem driving your car flat out in that situation if the engine mapper has done their job properly, there are settings in the ECU that take acount of MAF intake temp, you also have a very active knock control strategy on the OEM ECU that will also take care of things.

You could push the engine more if you were running the GroupN map in the OEM ECU, this would allow you to use the charge temp sensor fitted in the Inlet Plenum as standard to the later JDM cars (homologated for the PWRC), but in doing that you lose the active knock control functionality of the ECU, because the PWRC cars run on a control fuel so dont require that function. Not a good idea on a road car which can pick up varying fuel qualities.

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

In your opinion, which you obviously mistake as fact far too frequently as much as I enjoy watching you flog a dead horse backing the std tmic I dont want to clog up Shauns thread no more.

Good luck with your testing Shaun, should be a great car with the LM450 fitted

johnfelstead

You've not taken anything onboard i've said have you. Shame....

Shaun

On a lighter note......

Tomorrow is the Billet LM450 fitting day!

Siding with the consensus given by some on this thread, I await my lack of performance during Friday's remap!

The bonus is, if it all goes Pete Tong I can book a load more time off work to get other things done and it will keep me writing on this thread for many months to come.