fastboyslim

iTrader: (2)

You have been sent the new compound pad. Will be good to do back to back testing.

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

My thoughts on the NDX Blues...

https://www.scoobynet.com/786248-ful...l#post10019534

post 235

I-am-Cos

iTrader: (6)

Andy, I still haven't received either the Pagids or the Ferodo's you said you were going to send. Do you have a tracking number just in case they have 'got lost in the system'

Thanks

MurrayZA

Funny you should mention. I did a trackday at Snet 300 on a set of near new (300 miles) EBC bluestuff NDX (05 STi PPP + Remap to 349bhp on road tyres). The pads wore terribly and essentially destroyed a set of good Godspeed disks by scoring grooves in them due to uneven wear. A very costly mistake, now I need to buy a new set of disks and pads. Ouch.

MurrayZA

I'd go with that statement for the 4 pots and the Brembos. On track the Bluestuff come out like this after 1/2 a day of driving. These pads have done < 500 miles in total.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Fe...MzMYi9lsg=s512

What is disconcerting is that I have not experienced this pad behaviour with DS2500s, DS3000s, PFs, Stock, Carbon Kevlars, OEM. I am more than happy to gamble on a new type of pad, especially a cheapie like the EBCs, and if it doesnt work out then it doesnt work out. What did rub me up the wrong way is that the Bluestuff took my disks with them!

Andy Freeman

Hi There

Thanks for calling us a cheapie, shall I put all the prices up then ?????

I want to see pictures of those discs you said we destroyed please, kindly send them to andy@ebcbrakes.com

You will be the first person on this planet who has suffered this and I will look into it throughly

Thanks Andy

Murrayf99

Hi Andy,

I know how subjective brakes can be. In an ideal world I'd have the cash for a set of 18s and 6 Pot APs and that would be the end of any braking discussion. Ideally, thats what a 1.5 ton car needs when on track.

I think the EBC Blues are good value for fast road. I'd recommend them all day long. Price seems competitive to me and sure beats a top spec set of Pagids at close on £300 a set for Brembo fronts, so yeah, a cheapie .

I did buy the Bluestuff to try at my peril and I am just disappointed that they are labelled endurance, and, not only did they not endure, but they took a perfectly good set of disks with to brake heaven , this made it in to a £500 problem instead of a £150 odd one. I'd be 100% ok if they just wore quickly and then I could judge them against the others I have tried.

I am sure that 95% of customers that drive fast road, or do light track days (out lap, fast lap, in lap, cool for 30 mins) will be over the moon with these pads.

Its back to DS2500s for me, or I'll hang on a while and get the PF ally bells, PF disks and 01s if I hit the lotto They seem to be the best option. Or AP strap drive disks and Pagid RS29... ooo.

Pic already posted in link above.

Andy, thanks for openly discussing on the forum. I have been a member since 2002 and some straight up discussion may cause some temperatures to rise, but at the end its all about helping other members to make informed decisions.

Cheers

popeyedoyle

This is an interesting post....there must be a reason why I can get the NDX to perform lap after lap on the limit (circa 25min sessions) where in your case they appear to overheat....Its also interesting to note that other drivers with the gold brembo brake set ups report great results on NDX's....again there must be a reason behind the differing reports

Most of my laps are done in a 1500kg high performance BMW...the calipers are only single pots but they are huge and have no issues getting the car down from 115mph on the straights....The discs used are similar in size at circa 324mm...the only other observation I have is the BMW's have reasonably sized cooling ducts right out the factory.....

It would be useful to know how long you stayed out each time you went on track, how many sessions you did in total and whether your fluid boiled at any point....

You have tried many pads in the past so its clear have a good deal of experience with fast road/track applications.....could it be the case that the limits of the brake set-up are being exceeded with excessive heat loading?

I'm just kicking ideas around to try to get to the bottom of whats behind this issue....

Murrayf99

All interesting points. Like I said in my post, the proper solution to any braking upgrade is bigger brakes and not chasing the holy grail of better disks and pads. I am trying to stay on 17s for cost and comfort perspectives. To get to bigger disks, its £2K for proper disks and pads (dont bother with anything but Alcon or AP), £600 x 2 sets of alloys, new rubber x 2 @ £500 for a road set and £150 for 4x part worns for the track (please dont bid on 225x45x17 Eagle F1 asymmetric on ebay... cos you'll be ruining my trackday budget ). A pricey proposition.

I think the cooling makes a big difference. That said, ambient was 8 degrees on the day in concern, maybe the dust plates and lack of ducting on the Sti makes a big difference. I probably do 100 miles a day on track and slightly shorter sessions, after 20 mins I find my concentration drifting (getting old you know, almost 40...).

My car runs Tein Mono's on 1.5 to 2 deg camber all round. It runs like its on rails whereas your Beemer probably scrubs quite a bit off on oversteer (even if on rock solid suspension). What I am trying to say is that I usually find the RWD peddalers brake lighter, turn in harder and balance the oversteer on the way through. I'd find a ditch so I have AWD

My tyres are usually the first to suffer, Eagle F1 assymetrics but on the day in concern they were fine. No gumming up or slipping around, all good, wear was dead even and no marbling. Pads were good feel or I would have come in very quickly. Motor is guarded by a mocal 25 row oil cooler and Spec C anti surge fuel pump, so the weakest link is likely the brakes, although the pads I have tried before usually outdo the F1 Assymmetrics at 225x45x17. I was hoping the legendary bluestuff would be enough benefit to get me on to some semi slicks, alas not. I can just about hang on the back of a stripped E46 M3 (stock motor, road tyres) in my car to give you a rough idea of pace.

With due respect to BMW (this is a scooby forum the stock M3 brakes are notoriously useless. http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/t...3-brakes.shtml A friend just upgraded his E46's to APs after repeated disappointment on the stock set up. I fear the same fate, or a Cateham / Exige (and ditch insurance!)

Parting shot - maybe I should drive a few laps in yours and see what the result is... Just to take the driver out the equation.

Andy Freeman

Hi There

I see your photos, these discs are not trashed, what you see are stain marks, not good I agree but this is a side effect of the Blues in early use on the track.

If you polish these discs up with fine abrasive paper they will be back to perfect and the staining will subside as the pad sees some miles, it happens on some cars. I will ask the factory to step up the pre burnish time on this pad reference as it does get hammered in its early life and this would fix the staining/striping issue.

Cheers

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Andy, are you saying that if this user had bedded the pads in for a few hundred miles first as opposed to immediately hammering them on the track the results would have been different?

I have also just ordered a brand new set of K-Sports with blue stuff pads, but if they damage a set of new rotors that cost £320 to replace, to say I'll be unhappy will be an understatement!

Andy Freeman

There will be ZERO disc damage.

This whole thread was started because ONE DRIVER crashed a car on a trackday event, hit another one in the rear using OLD BLUE, before this new NDX compound. The thread he started caused us to react and develop this new compound. Since then hundreds of fast drivers, including 59 we GAVE free test sets to front and rear have hammered these pads all ver the world (Not just in the UK) and we have only had two examples of poor feedback.

One was a trackday event getting judder (not on our discs by the way) on a standard size set up on an early impreza four pot system. We KNOW that system is a tough one to crack when you go RACING.

Then this new driver Mr Murray who has leaching striped on his rotors.

These colour bands do happen. You can see the discs are not damaged by the apparent straight line on the slot edges on his rotors and as I toild Mr Murray, if he sands these discs clean, they will be fine.

Your oversize set up and K SAports will

a) Run cooler
b) brake better

and the temps Mr Murray has seen may never happen with your set up and the leacing of colour may not happen either.

I said that I would check on the pre bedding scorch time and see if there is a case to extend this but in a long winded answer to your question YES a little more bedding in was needed.

Cheers for now

Andy

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Thanks for the response.
The reason I'm asking is because whilst I'm going to run blue stuff NDX on the K-sport kit, I've also ordered blue stuff NDX for my OEM rear WRX 2 pot calipers as well, and so wanted to check that this wasn't likely to happen to me, as I also run Godspeed discs on the rear.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I make it 3 Wrx owners with huge judder issues on newage and 1 Sti on brembos Andy.

popeyedoyle

Did one of the WRX owners not sort his judder problem out by having Ian Godney (Godspeed) replace the dragging seals Dunc?

Murrayf99

Your stains are about 1/2 mm deep, I'd be on them all weekend with fine abrasive. They need a skim at the very least and this would require new pads anyway. Catch 22. I would put the disks down as wasted.

In terms of bedding in, they were fitted 150 miles from Snetterton, plus did a few around town runs. I made sure to do a number of spaced out slow downs (not stops) from 70-30 during pre track time. Plus the sighting laps at the track. EBC quote the following on their site. This was the second set of pads on the disks, they were in good condition.

EBC Bluestuff NDX pads are now PRE BEDDED by heat scorching. This new piece of equipment that we have installed at the UK EBC Factory allows us to offer you a pre bedded brake pad that beds in within 3-4 stops at the track. This major advantage puts EBC ahead of its competition where drivers can arrive at the track, fit new pads and in a single warm up lap can be ready to race. This does of course still require consideration for rotor condition which must be flat and smooth to achieve good contact, we can do a lot at EBC Brakes but we cannot work miracles (yet).

Andy, to be clear, are you saying that the condition of these disks and pads is as expected and are 100% fine to run at my next track day?

MurrayZA

If you have worn grooved disks or an uneven pad surface, the brakes can judder with new pads and/or disks as the pads cut themselves in to the shape of your disk. Careful bedding in should take care of this. Other causes of judder can be warped disks, or the pad not sitting in the caliper correctly. Maybe even the caliper not being secured properly or in line after removing to fit disks.

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

He did...
Ref this post...
MurrayZA, (out of interest) Were your disc's brand new before fitting and tracking the NDX's? If not, did they have previous pad deposit on them?

EmzWRX

iTrader: (2)

That will be 4 WRX owners then!!! Lol

Murrayf99

They were the second set of pads. Disks were in very good condition. There was no visible deposits but there would be a light covering that all pads rub on to the disks that should rub off during the bed in process. There is no way I can see to do this differently unless you sand the disks (and hope you keep them even) or skim them every time you change pads. I have done neither on any car previously and they have always been fine.

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

Murrayf99/MurrayZA?
Maybe so, But the disc face certainly wasn't true as there's no way on earth that a fresh pad would cause the effect shown in your photo to a disc with a completely true surface. It just wouldn't happen unless the pad had a major defect in it with various hard spots in the compound (which I doubt very much).

MurrayZA

So you're saying the ok disks turned bad when I changed the pads? Andy posted that the pads will do this and can be expected to happen from time to time. I am not here to stir a scuff up, just to report my findings, which are in the vast minority.

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

MurrayZA/f99,
I'm certainly not trying to cause a scuff up (far from it)
But for example, If you were going to replace your clutch plate with a (for example a £500 AP item) and your flywheel wasn't completely true and this could cause premature wear and lack of performance you probably would replace the worn flywheel? Wouldn't you? So why put new pads onto worn/untrue discs and then be suprised at the results.
It's the same principle.

PS

I'm not trying to be an ar$e, It's just my opinion

MurrayZA

I might be tempted to call you an ar$e

I think the amount of labour and fequency of changing a clutch is the reason ppl do the whole bang shoot at once. I am still on the factory clutch on 67,500 miles and when that does eventually go, I'll be replacing the whole lot.

In terms of brakes, I think the majority of ppl dont skim discs every change. Skimming is tpically a good idea for warped or furrowed grooves or on a fitter's advice. In a decade of scooby ownership and track days, this is the first time I have had this happen to me, hence me posting my findings.

I'll give you a free shot and let you post up a responce and I'll do my best to not respond so this thread can rest!

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

True, But I've got plenty of customers who either skim or replace discs at every pad change (albeit usually on slightly more exotic machinery than Subarus). It looked to me from your small pic that your discs had previous damage, hence my comments.
If they haven't, then i'm an ar$e

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

The whole concept of "warped discs" is often discussed and usually leads to someone (me in this case) pointing people to the following link, stating that uneven pad deposits are often confused for "warping" of a disc, and that typically the only thing that actually causes warping of a disc is incorrect fitting, hence skimming of discs is often recommended to remove those pad deposits.

I've seen some dealers pretend discs need skimming to cure items like squeaky brakes, or just as routine maintenance, which in my eyes is nonsense and a pure money spinner.

In this instance however, if the posters who share the username prefix "Murray" both do a lot of track work, it might have been prudent to have the discs skimmed first, to remove any previous hot spots deposited on prior track days. It makes sense to me that if you're giving the car a bit of a hammering on track it might have led to pad deposits on the discs, especially if they were extremely hot.

If you didn't get them skimmed, then you've got to realise that it's extremely difficult to work out definitively if these pads are defective or not, especially given that others have said following caliper rebuilds etc. they've had no problems.

Just trying to see it from both sides of the argument guys

Andy Freeman

I am saying nothing of the sort and cannot say such things and give the guarantees you are looking for from a small rather low resolution photo

What I AM SAYING is that colour stripes we call leaching are not a disaster, normally go away themselves and can be scrubbed off with fine sand paper. You were saying our pads trashed your discs and this is simply not the case.

Please try sanding your discs and see what the surface looks like and send me a photo I can work with and comment.

These will be less as the pads see some use.

If you do take the pads out send me a photo of the surface of the pads at the same time

Cheers

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

I've lost count of how many judder issues I've come across with the PF pads that you love so much

Fair play to Andy coming on the forum to address the very isolated cases. I don't see PF/Pagid/Ferrodo/Mintex owners doing that. It shows that EBC care and listen to customers.

EBC Bluestuff NDX are still our best selling pad and of the hundreds of sets sold, problems are few and far between.

Whilst the pads might be a breakthrough in compounds (the best all round pad on the market IMHO), it isn't a miracle cure for all braking problems.

We run these NDX pads on our car (in favour over expensive Pagids and PF pads) and wouldn't run anything else.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

I had this PM from a customer the other day running WRX 4 pots and 294mm discs and NDX pads ,


Hi Ian

As promised I thought I'd update you after a trackday at Donington Park on the new disks and pads

I'd already followed your suggested bedding in procedure.

1st session; a steady warm up lap; then gradually increased pace to about 90% full pace; completed 4 laps with no issues.

2nd session; again a steady warm up lap; with slightly more speed and heavier braking, the brakes went through a phase of smooth braking; then some fade; and then into bad vibration. I pitted after 5 laps for an inspection

A noticable 'blueish' band about 20mm wide had formed around the disk surface (in the middle)

3rd and 4th session; of about 6 laps; same problem as before with vibration under braking.

An inspection showed that the 'blueish' band was widening

After much deliberation as to what the problem was;
(including abandoning the trackday because stopping was so unpleasant) I decided to try a few laps with some very late braking (to the point of almost lock up) during the vibration phase, and unexpectadly the vibration gradually stopped.

An inspection revealled that the 'blueish' band was now all the way across the disk!

I came to the conclusion that the brakes wern't properly bedded in and that they like being fully abused to get them performing!

A further 4 sessions of around 8 laps were completed with the brakes performing superbly

What do you think was happening?

Regards, and many thanks


Ps The car's a WRX RA version3; with a standard 275bhp.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Very interesting Andy

Obviously that is a classic rather than a newage but it may well be the answer.