my EJ257 engine failure
Hi there,
Its my 1st time posting and having read this thread I can honestly say that some things are best left for face to face conversations and not public forums.
Mike/Area52 I am sorry but your customer service skills really do need looking at or maybe best left to someone with a better understanding of public relations.
As a newbie about to go through a rather serious revamp of my wifes (yes I said wife) P1 I can guarantee my engine rebuild will not be with Area52.
From what I can see Its not that you build bad engines or your skills are in question here but reading the thread as an outsider I cant actually see where you have actually said to your customer bring it in lets have a look and we will help you fix this problem.
The way your response reads to me is that you have said bring in your engine we will have a look and I will prove you are wrong and charge you for it.
Again I am sure you products are great and no doubt this is a one off but in a time where buyers have the market you are doing a great job of going the way of the dinosaurs.
Well done
Its my 1st time posting and having read this thread I can honestly say that some things are best left for face to face conversations and not public forums.
Mike/Area52 I am sorry but your customer service skills really do need looking at or maybe best left to someone with a better understanding of public relations.
As a newbie about to go through a rather serious revamp of my wifes (yes I said wife) P1 I can guarantee my engine rebuild will not be with Area52.
From what I can see Its not that you build bad engines or your skills are in question here but reading the thread as an outsider I cant actually see where you have actually said to your customer bring it in lets have a look and we will help you fix this problem.
The way your response reads to me is that you have said bring in your engine we will have a look and I will prove you are wrong and charge you for it.
Again I am sure you products are great and no doubt this is a one off but in a time where buyers have the market you are doing a great job of going the way of the dinosaurs.
Well done
I have heard back from Mike:
I have included my original questions to him so as to give context to his answers.
I have included my original questions to him so as to give context to his answers.
Mike
What are your thoughts on these shells?
[Mike Tuckwood] I've included our comments on these bearings with this mail so that you can see the difference in "opinion" in this matter. Obviously, we haven't seen or inspected the shells or the bearing journals, and indeed, that could potentially alter our opinion of what we're commenting on Etc, but given the presiding fact that the car has lead the somewhat tortuous life that it has for so many miles, including numerous oil pressure related "events" and managed to outlive all of them is the most telling "condition indicator" fact of all!
As Paul says, the shells have not been in contact with the pillars hence the oil staining.
[Mike Tuckwood] The oil staining pattern appears to show where there has been greater oil flow, not where there has been no oil flow.
Obviously this would reduce the amount of oiling that the bearing face/crank would be getting.
[Mike Tuckwood] The rear (outer) face of the bearing, we would expect to see less oil flow than the friction faces, looking at the pictures alone, we can see no areas that given the event history and mileage/power level and use the car has been put to that are a specific cause for concern, particularly when the engine has not suffered a failure in this area.
[Mike Tuckwood] Without inspecting them at greater length its difficult to comment accurately further. There are a multitude of issues which can be experienced including cavitation erosion, general bearing wear, cap stretch, general fatigue wear and usage which could all have contributed to the pattern markings on the bearings?
I have to say, while we would look at and consider these had we pulled one of our engines apart, there is certainly nothing that we can see that would raise any particular level of alarm here?
Indeed, upon investigation, any conclusions that we drew from any such analysis, we would be inclined to keep to ourselves and consider within the overall engineering build process applied to our engines. As you're aware, this sector of the market is highly specialist and we are not in the business of "educating" on a basis which may be advantageous to others. I'm sure you understand that.
While the enclosed comments are "for information purposes only", if you wish to post to the rest of the internet what we have commented, then I'd appreciate it if you did so without prejudice, and/or undue inferences?
What are your thoughts on these shells?
[Mike Tuckwood] I've included our comments on these bearings with this mail so that you can see the difference in "opinion" in this matter. Obviously, we haven't seen or inspected the shells or the bearing journals, and indeed, that could potentially alter our opinion of what we're commenting on Etc, but given the presiding fact that the car has lead the somewhat tortuous life that it has for so many miles, including numerous oil pressure related "events" and managed to outlive all of them is the most telling "condition indicator" fact of all!
As Paul says, the shells have not been in contact with the pillars hence the oil staining.
[Mike Tuckwood] The oil staining pattern appears to show where there has been greater oil flow, not where there has been no oil flow.
Obviously this would reduce the amount of oiling that the bearing face/crank would be getting.
[Mike Tuckwood] The rear (outer) face of the bearing, we would expect to see less oil flow than the friction faces, looking at the pictures alone, we can see no areas that given the event history and mileage/power level and use the car has been put to that are a specific cause for concern, particularly when the engine has not suffered a failure in this area.
[Mike Tuckwood] Without inspecting them at greater length its difficult to comment accurately further. There are a multitude of issues which can be experienced including cavitation erosion, general bearing wear, cap stretch, general fatigue wear and usage which could all have contributed to the pattern markings on the bearings?
I have to say, while we would look at and consider these had we pulled one of our engines apart, there is certainly nothing that we can see that would raise any particular level of alarm here?
Indeed, upon investigation, any conclusions that we drew from any such analysis, we would be inclined to keep to ourselves and consider within the overall engineering build process applied to our engines. As you're aware, this sector of the market is highly specialist and we are not in the business of "educating" on a basis which may be advantageous to others. I'm sure you understand that.
While the enclosed comments are "for information purposes only", if you wish to post to the rest of the internet what we have commented, then I'd appreciate it if you did so without prejudice, and/or undue inferences?
Former Sponsor
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,859
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From: Wellingborough, Northamptonshire
Mike does realise that those stains are on the backs of the shells? Which would normally be in contact with the block, and not subject to any oil flow, except where designed, ie the oil feed groove?
Yes he does - these are his comments on the hi-res pictures I sent him by email.
Just an observation -in addition to the oil staining marks, the backs of the bearings also appear to have polished areas on them and are pock marked - possible causes could be insufficient crush,worn main bearing housings/fretting.
Mick
Mick
With Ray Charles in close proximity i belive 
I don't want to give the impression that we are unconcerned when anything goes wrong, but if there is a build issue, they usually show straight away, and unlike some, builds of this nature while carrying no "warranty", if we have done anything to cause or directly contribute to any kind of problem, we would always stand by our work and rectify any such issue (if one occurred).
Similarly, where an issue has occurred and is NOT causal from work carried out by us, time spent in dealing with it is charged to the relevant customer.
Mike.
Hi Mike,
Interesting comment on company policy and I've also found a number of claims regarding your "custom high strength liners"
If you remember back to my engine build, of similar spec to Duncan's and carried out some time after, you'll recall the inbalance of compression figures and the subsequent discovery of a split liner. This was something that "has never been seen before" In fairness you pulled the engine and carried out the repair FOC a couple of months later once you were convinced the low compression on that cylinder wasn't going to right itself.
Since then I have sold the car and been informed by the new owner of severe water loss. He was convinced it was head gasket and pulled the engine. Once the heads were removed the cause was very obviously another split liner.
As you know, the car had an FP Green, so wasn't running anywhere near the power levels of Duncan's engine and made only 420/400 on 99 octane and 470/450 with 10% methanol. Steve Simpson carried out the final mapping a month or two before the sale iirc.
My decision to invest the extra £600 + 17.5% VAT to have the custom liners was to future proof for a bigger turbo, which never happened.
I wrote to you on the 21st September to inform you of this and asking if you would replace the liner FOC, bearing in mind the relatively light duty the engine had been put to in it's short life and that it was already disassembled. I have yet to receive a reply. According to the new owner, no other damage or failure has been noted, certainly no hydraulic shock, bent gudgeon pins or the like so it would appear that this too is a material defect, like the first. Possibly a defective batch or could it be an occasional rogue?
I still await your response.
regards
Gerry
Last edited by Houghton; Oct 10, 2009 at 09:06 AM.
A blast from the past.
Interestingly though, I did compare the bearings out of the subsequent engine that had done 20,000 miles at 600 ish bhp with those out of this. None of them showed the discolouration on the backs of the shells from oil staining. Shows that they were properly seated on the main bearing stacks IMO.
Interestingly though, I did compare the bearings out of the subsequent engine that had done 20,000 miles at 600 ish bhp with those out of this. None of them showed the discolouration on the backs of the shells from oil staining. Shows that they were properly seated on the main bearing stacks IMO.
No Jeff - I didnt ask for an outcome to be honest though as I didnt have time before the engine was needed again and once together it is hard to progress any form of independant report.
Personally after having read this thread plus the other well known engine failure which involved Area52, I don't think I could draw any conclusion than that their customer service and backup is not great and they have more reverse gears than an Italian tank. 
I wonder why they no longer post on here...
I wonder why they no longer post on here...
Regardless of who may be right or wrong here, the one line from Mike's reply to Duncan that says it all for me is this..
"I have to say, while we would look at and consider these had we pulled one of our engines apart, there is certainly nothing that we can see that would raise any particular level of alarm here?"
Are they saying that this kind of main bearing failure is regarded as normal and to be expected?
If that really is the case it's no wonder the customer aftercare apparently leaves something to be desired.
"I have to say, while we would look at and consider these had we pulled one of our engines apart, there is certainly nothing that we can see that would raise any particular level of alarm here?"
Are they saying that this kind of main bearing failure is regarded as normal and to be expected?
If that really is the case it's no wonder the customer aftercare apparently leaves something to be desired.
I think Mike was saying that yes. ie 16000 miles at 450-500bhp would cause that damage on the main bearing pillars.
Yet.. 20,000 miles on the subsequent build (after Paul repaired the stacks) at higher power and substantially more abuse and the backs of the shells are perfect. (as were the fronts) and subsequently all the big ends were fine and dandy too. In fact they were showing minimal wear for an engine of its age and use.
The damage to the stacks and the lower oil pressure on the main bearings (as indicated by the dark staining on the backs of the shells in the pictures) as it was bleeding away from where it should have been going could not have helped oil flow through the crank to the big ends. Perhaps this contributed to the failure.
I have to be very careful for legal reason to not suggest or imply that the new engine that they sold me was second hand before it went in my car - please note that I am not stating this nor do I wish to drag this up again.
Yet.. 20,000 miles on the subsequent build (after Paul repaired the stacks) at higher power and substantially more abuse and the backs of the shells are perfect. (as were the fronts) and subsequently all the big ends were fine and dandy too. In fact they were showing minimal wear for an engine of its age and use.
The damage to the stacks and the lower oil pressure on the main bearings (as indicated by the dark staining on the backs of the shells in the pictures) as it was bleeding away from where it should have been going could not have helped oil flow through the crank to the big ends. Perhaps this contributed to the failure.
I have to be very careful for legal reason to not suggest or imply that the new engine that they sold me was second hand before it went in my car - please note that I am not stating this nor do I wish to drag this up again.
I bow to your greater experience Duncan, but I would have thought that kind of damage to the back of main bearings would be considered as cause for concern.
I agree that 16k at that power output is putting a lot of strain on an engine, even more so if it's driven hard, but as you point out it doesn't have to be that way as shown by your later engine.
I agree that 16k at that power output is putting a lot of strain on an engine, even more so if it's driven hard, but as you point out it doesn't have to be that way as shown by your later engine.