Like i said mate, God has always been here from the start. God is where it all started.

And if you can't see that, then obviously "you are an idiot" ....

 

Which God exactly? There are literally thousands of recognised deities throught the world, and they started at different times?

But of course, they are all wrong, and you will scoff at them with their silly superstitions........ Oh the irony!

Geezer

 

Well until you have uncontrovertible proof of a happening or whatever, it is still a theory purely by definition. You can of course say it is very likely, but you still cannot say positively that it is right.

Of course there are many different versions of God throughout the world. What else can you expect? If you believe that there has to be an all powerful being then you can worship or respect Him just as you like personally. It all depends on how you see fit. If you choose to follow a religion in order to do so then once again that is up to you. I personally don't think the religion matters particularly as long as it has what we regard as good teachings. I certainly don't think that people's characters should be denigrated for doing that either. The important bit is basically to follow Natural Law. Most basic religions are an aid to that of course and that is no bad thing. If you live a good life but not a religious one-then "bully for you".

Les

 

Absolutely, but then you have to apply the same rationale to God, but for some reason, uncontrovertible truth is thrown out of the window for faith!

Yet non believers belief in the science is somehow ridiculous It just doesnt make sense........

I'm not saying you think it is ridiculous, but people like the Landover Baptists or djmisio85 do, it's utterly ridiculous.

Geezer

 

We're here again I see! You can never have absolute proof for anything in the natural world, the end.

What you have is weight of evidence. There's a very big pile on one side and none on the other. If god decides to muscle in a put something on his side then fine, but for now, I'll go with the balance of probabilities as you do with just about anything else in your life.

 

Evidence?

 

Do you have evidence of the Big Bang?

Something must have initiated the Big Bang, as I said, have there been any other Big Bangs to prove your theory? Therefore, whatever God is, it must be a force more powerful than anything on earth. And "most" religions have a different name for God, but it is the same God as everyone elses. But as already established, you dont need religion to believe in God and to be a good person. Religion is like a teacher, there are many teachers on earth, and most of them will teach you the correct way of doing things, and some will make mistakes along the way, as each religion has its flaws no doubt.... But its a good guide, for those who dont know how to live a life...

 

Do you have any evidence for God?

What we observe is explained best by the Big Bang, whereas what you are tyring to do is start from a viewpoint of there being a God and then trying to fit the world we see to that, like your ridiculous statement about why the day just happens to suit us!

Just because something is not fully explained means that some diety did it. It is the weakest fall back position there is, and if everyone thought ike that we'd still be living in caves going "oooooo, God is angry" when we had a thunderstorm

geezer

 

Not possible to prove there is a God, in the same way you can't prove he does not exist. It all stems from a personal feeling about the meaning of it all as they say and Faith was mentioned of course. Its a common phenomenon all over the world even in tribes who have not seen civilisation.

To make Olly feel better, I would not deny the Big Bang, but it is still a theory, what really is the point to my mind is that how did it start off? I would also accept that if there was an all powerful being, then he must be eternal. That is difficult to encompass since we are used to things having a beginning and an end. Its just seems to me that things are so well ordered and interdependent in the Universe that there is a good argument for someone having planned it all.

How do you know he isn't angry Geezer?

Les

 

djmisio85, you do realise what an infinitesimally small period of time hasn't yet been explained by physics, don't you? It's a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second. That's all we're talking now, that is the only "unexplained" in our universe, of any consequence. Sorta makes you think an explanation will come at some point doesn't it? And if it does, whether by the particle accelerator or otherwise, what then? Do you hang up your boots and concede that it's perhaps not such a mysterious world after all, or will you still find a reason to attribute it all to some theoretical entity?

 

Totally off-topic, except for the maths connection, the telly programme The History of Mathematics was very good last night. But i do wonder what fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population actually understand any of the maths!! Try the unresolved problems in this teasing little list for starters...

Hilbert's problems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What a long thread this has become..

I am with djmisio85 on this one, most people to seem think this view as being incorrect, outdated and simple. I don't believe that to be the case. I have my beliefs as a Christian and a fish sticker on the back of my Scooby <><



'Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.'
Bertrand Russel (Atheist)

 

Totally untrue. I certainly do not consider my life meaningless (although others might disagree, lol). So now what?

 

LMAO at this thread.

Does anyone contesting religion really think that any exposition of a lack of evidence to support it is going to make a believer say:

"Actually, you know what, **** it, you lot are right, my whole belief system is based on a load of crap"

Likewise, does anyone think a scientist is suddenly going to proclaim:

"Argh, I've wasted my life looking for empirical evidence; my mind is full but my soul is barren and empty"

Religion is predicated around faith, not evidence.
Science is predicated around evidence not faith.

Believe in what you will. Believe in both if you like: they aren't as mutually exclusive as one might think.

The real irony (and worrying trend) is that the emerging breed of atheists are starting to exhibit the exactly traits and mannerisms that they once condemned in organised religion.

In fact you might say that "Anti-religion" is becoming a religion of sorts!

Ns04

 

The atheist's frustration though, NS04, is that they (we) don't need "faith" in order to lead meangingful and moralistic lives. We argue that it's an intrinsic human trait. Stronger in some than in others, obviously. We just cannot get our heads around believing in something which is so totally, utterly unprovable, and which has been responsible, in many different ways, for so much sorrow and hardship around the world. It's probably as hard to explain as it is for a religious person to attempt to explain to me why science isn't enough.

 

I'm getting bored of refuting this line of thought; you can't prove a negative and the burden of proof lies upon the claimant. I lack a belief in gods, I don't deny them. If you claim any exist, it's down to you to supply the evidence that makes your claim, to date it's been woeful.

For you maybe, for those of a scientific bent, it stems from what's observable and supported by the evidence.

You can deny BB all you like, I just wish you'd stop mis-using the term "theory" as it applies to areas of science.

At the moment, that leads you to BB or God. The answer then still applies to both, what created started them. If you want to claim special dispensation for your pet claim of god, then I do the same for BB and we move no further forward. I'll just add, there's rather more evidence of a universe than any god.

So why not the universe?

Look up the laws of thermodynamics and do some reading on entropy. It may look ordered but it's becoming more and more dis-ordered as time progresses.

 

I think I can guess...

 

Why should it be frustrating?

I know some atheists won't walk over 3 drains because they say it is "bad luck". As a scientist I find that absurd! But I'm not going to loose any sleep over it.

Religion serves several intrinsic human needs (e.g. group identity, social facilitation and cohesion) some of which, I'd argue, are more important than the content of any scripture, that is why people gravitate to it and that is why they are not concerned by a lack of empiricism. It has served its purpose in their lives and that's all they want of it.

There is simply no need for frustration, just understanding and tolerance.

Ns04

 

... you mean we'll get to start wars too?...

 

From my perspective it comes from the response you get if somebody starts talking god at you (and despite claims to the contrary, you'd be surprised how often it happens) and you tell them you're an atheist. It's the implicit accusation that you're automatically some kind of child mudering mass rapist as you don't have the fear of god to stop you.


Then kindly explain that to 90% of the religious that I encounter.

 

Yep! You can even declare a "anti-holy war" against believers!

Fair is fair after all!

Given some of the bile articulated against religion by people who claim that it is irrelevant to their lives, if that is the case, one does wonder why they get in such a state about it?

Perhaps we'll see them marching down the streets with posters saying:

"Behead those who believe in religion"

 

LOSE

It's frustrating because many atheists are walking proof that there doesn't NEED to be a belief in a big bad God. We just don't understand how it's a logical decision. Do the believers secretly think that the atheists kneel down and pray every evening on the quiet? Do they think that no human can be strong enough within himself to conduct his life in a moralistic manner without some divine intervention? Does it all boil down to a fear of death, to a hedging of bets about whether there's an afterlife? Goodness knows i've tried to understand but so far, i've drawn a blank, depsite all the discussions i've had on the subject. "Because i DO believe" is what it boils down to, and that's an illogical stance no atheist can let lie, i'm afraid!

 

You could just ignore them, Olly?

If someone comes up to me selling me double glazing and I don't need it, that's what I would do!

Anyone would think that you had no choice but to listen.

 

With over 70% of the UK at least claiming to be a Christian, that's not as easy as you may think.

 

He, he. I do so love your response to the "lose" typo!

What intrinsic need are you serving by not simply being able to let it lie, Tel?

Surely the polite thing for BOTH sides to do is agree to disagree

Ns04

 

Because, one day, i sincerely hope i actually get a set of reasons for faith that i can evaluate, purely from a humanistic point of view. I'm just fascinated that mankind has been able to concoct this notion of God and spead it around the world so successfully, to the point that many humans' lives are literally dictated by it! Don't eat pork?? What? Light candles on Friday? What? Pray five times a day? What? Get excused at confession? What? I just need answers, it's just an extension of an eight year old keep asking "why?"


And a typo isn't the same as a mis-spelling, fyg

 

I can't remember the last time I was bullied into listening to ANYONE religious.

Ironically, it's the folks who've brought a copy of Richard Dawkings and now think they're theology professors that are the most vocal, whether people want to hear it or not! They're taking on the attributes they deride religion for.

If you don't believe in something, be it a religious view, a lifestyle choice, an opinion on the internet, you can simply just ignore it!

If you can't, perhaps you need to look at yourself, rather than rant against others.

Ns04

 

 

Sometimes conversation with new aquaintances goes beyond "which football team do you support". As my stock response is "none, it's a girls' sport", they either leave at that point or find something else to talk about. It's usually politics or religion. If they're a believer, which statistics suggest they will be, you either get evasive or tell the truth. When you do tell the truth, that's when you get either by look or actual spoken word the "so you're what a child rapist looks like" accusation.

Interestingly enough the last person I was talking to when the subject arose was a vicar. We'd covered the niceities when she then asked why she never saw me in church. I replied "because I'm an atheist", at which point she gave me the blackest look you've ever seen, turned on her heals and walked away without out a word. Hardly a loving christian thing to do. If that's what you get from the top brass, there's little chance the foot soldiers will be more understanding.

Maybe you should broaden your social horizons somewhat?

 

Heels