Good one, Dedrater. Good points there indeed.
Will be very interested in the 'believers' responses to this one.

 

And even in simple terms, do all monkeys look alike? There are many different varieties on monkey in the world today all with their own unique attributes and ways to cope with their particular environment.

5t.

 

Like me and Torquemada said. Each to their own mate, and there's no point arguing about it because we will be here for the rest of our lives.
I have my reasons for believing you have your reasons for not. Why would you bad mouth the people that don't agree with your beliefs ???

I just wanted you to spend a load of time writing out a reply

 

Does it have to be classed as arguing though? I like this sort of stuff, it is good to debate things and have ideas challenged in a sensible way. No one here is being rude, everyone is presenting their thoughts in a grown up way at the moment. Civilisations used to be founded on such philosophical debate!

5t.

 

I cna't speak for anyone else, but I personally have no desire to 'bad mouth' anyone for their beliefs per se, but I would like them to answer specific questions put to them.

Simply answering "God" or "its all part of Gods plan" or any other such non answer is ridiculous. It's not as if all believers are dullards, so they understand logic and reasoning, so why do they blankly refuse to answer a simple question?

They question all sorts of things every day of their lives, so what's the problem with questioning what is in the bible or what they have been taught by preachers?

Geezer

 

It wasn’t really an argument more a quest for what basis you define your beliefs which are uncorroborated by objective eyewitnesses and are simply assumed to be true without question. The ancient documents alleging God's existence are preliterate (a society that has not yet developed a written language, somehow wrote the entire bible?), prephilosophical, and, in any case, unconfirmed by scientific inquiry, one can only assume that is is moral poetry, fanciful tales of imaginative fiction if you like which contradicts each other in their claims for authenticity and legitimacy. Unless you can tell me otherwise?

My problem is ‘believers’ have in the past (still goes on now infact) hold little room for human autonomy, individual freedom, or self-reliance. They have emphasized submission to the word of God instead of self-determination, faith over reason, and gullibility over doubt, holding little confidence in the ability of humans to solve problems and create a better future by drawing on their own resources instead of looking to the sky for some miracle to happen.

 

Any chance it's the other way round seeing as the planet has been around several billion years longer than man?


Have you tried it, over a couple of thousand generations? Get back to me when the results are in.

Gravity. Take a GCSE Physics course, this is well understodd.


1. You don't seem to understand the big bang
2. Who created your god?

Not at all.

I dunno, if you have somebody who is convinced of a second chance and somebody who thinks they have only 1, who is the more likely to do something stupid?

If you have free will, then god is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, that leaves the abrahamic god somewhat out on a limb.

 

Every child taken to sunday school / church on a Sunday morning is being indoctrinated in to that faith. Also go a visit the south of the USA and tell them you're an atheist and see how you're recieved. Take the blinkers off and have a look at the real world.

 

Page 5, Olly? You're slipping

 

I can see where your coming from Dedrater. And to be honest my faith is probably very basic (if you like) and not fussed by all the provings and stuff. Which by alot of traditional christians is seen as wrong. And I think alot of them too are wrong. But to be honest who are we to say someone is wrong or not.

I have my relationship with God, for me, I know it is real. Too many occurences for it not to be, for me. I think my faith is a more up to date view on things. I don't care if I can't prove he created everything or not or Noah really did build a boat etc.... All I care about is that I believe in my relationship with him.

What I don't agree with is when non-believers bad mouth and slag off the believers, and think we are weird because we have faith in something they don't.

Bloody non-believers they are soooo deluded they haven't got a clue only joking

 

You are well behind Olly on this thread. I was shocked not to have seen you yet

I have looked at "the real world" for many years. I am very new to religion, I think its say 2 years I have thought myself to be a Christian.
So I have seen both sides. I have had nothing drummed into me. In fact quite the opposite. The people at my church that I first went to basically said "its up to you" .........

 

Maybe, but not as bad burning/torturing non believers by the church for not agreeing with them

Geezer

 

Can't see anything wrong with that myself

 

Why do you consider your self to be a Christian if you do not hold they values, do you feel the need you put a name, if you like, to something that you feel is real i.e your god? but are confused to actually what it could be, but say you are Christian because that is the first place you went, the church you just mentioned?

 

Hand waving and demands for new examples to be explained is usually how it goes.

 

Yeah, had to w*rk this morning!

 

No, I consider myself a Christian because I do believe in most if not all the values a Christian is suppose to believe in. But for me it isn't important at all.

As an example I don't see going to Church as necessarily a must do for me to be a Christian. I can still be one without going to church in my eyes. Plus most churches are soooo boring and full of 2 faced fake people.
But alot of other Christians would say I'm not one in that case

 

So do you believe in the resurrection and ascension to heaven then? And Jesus's miracles?

If so, what has led you to believe they are true? (The bible is not a reliable historical document)

Geezer

 

Aye

On the arguing/debate thing, it's currently a good bit of banter/debate about religion in general and MOK probably doesn't want to get deep into his reasons for choosing his beliefs as sometimes there is no real reason apart from finding that believing in something can enrich the lives of some (as they may see it). I dunno. Plus he's been fighting the Christianity corner by himself for some time now, must need a break

Personally I'm not convinced on the whole God thing and think there's more chance of there being other reasons for life but that doesn't exclude the possibilities of some kind of life after death in some form, conscious or not, that's another debate I guess as I don't think the two need to be exclusively linked.
As for Jebus, guy who knew cpr and maybe some Derren Brown/cult leader style techniques etc. or son of God? I lean towards the former.

It is a shame there are not more who would wish to contribute from the believers side though

 

I do believe in them yes.

Because I have Faith.

 

I thought you'd say that

So, essentially you are admitting, by your refusal to give a reason why you think it's true, that there is no evidence that it is true?

What other experiences have led you to believe? Something must have tipped you over into becoming a Christian a few years ago?

Geezer

 

Amen to that

 

Mainly experiences I had...... Stuff there is no reason for. I seeked and found, (if you like) and am constantly reminded on a regular basis.
Which If I told you guys, you would just say what a load of *****

 

Why don't you try? Is it because you are embarrased because in your heart you really know they are silly and can be explained away? Surely any event that is that compelling that turns you to christianity should be shouted from the roof tops!

Just because you can't explain something, does not mean it is divine. Loads of stuff we take for granted now and is mundane was once both miraculaous and mysterious to the ancients (pretty much why religion started probably), but that didn't make them acts of God, just unexplained at the time.

Geezer

 

lol

 

I am far from embarrased. I just know what the SN lot are like and there is no point.
I am fully aware that not everything that can't be explained can be put down to God. But having experienced things it is just different. I have been both sides of the fence if you like. And I can tell the difference.

One of the experiences I have had is : my sister was pregnant. this was her first pregnancy and had been trying for ages. Anyway, something said to me that something was wrong with the baby but it would all be ok. I had just began my journey, and remember someone saying when you need advice or answers to turn to the bible and it will provide you.
So off I trot. Open the bible and its a verse with regards to pregnancy. And it says pretty much that the lord will not put women through the pain without giving them a child.

So I interpret that as something has happened to the baby, but He will provide her with a baby. So i say to my wife I got to go and see her. Anyway I arrive and discover she is in Bed having had a miscarriage. Very upsetting Anyway I leave. She comes up a few days later and I tell her what Happened with the bible but she is adament that she will not go through that pain again. Anyway I knew that he was telling me she would have another and 5 months later she was pregnant again, she was scared ****less but she said (sis being very sceptical) made her feel warm and confident everything would be ok. As it was

 

Do you use 'Faith' as a way to explain away the inconsistencies that even you yourself see? If so - why? Why not just say 'I am not a Christian, and instead I have chosen to live my life by these ideals'. It is your own personal religion then, and hence uniquely suited to you.

The concept of religion or belief in a higher being is not the problem. The problem is with practically all of the established religions seeking to dictate what is and isn't 'true', despite the many inaccuracies, hypocrisies, lies and falsehoods that have been revealed in 'their' versions.

Have faith by all means, but have the self-belief to reject the view put forward by the existing outfits, and strike out on your own path. Only then can you be said to be displaying free will and independence.

 

To be fair he's already mentioned a few.

I would go with questioning aspects of religion generally but not someone's actual faith if that makes sense?

Also MOK79 seems a bit too well screwed together and reasonable, if you really want to have fun we need a Dinosaur denying Sarah Palin type in here. Now those are fun and unfortunately the type to push their faith at you. As MOK said, they probably think badly of him too.

Personally i'm willing to accept that there may be something more to it. We don't know where the universe came from and while we can explain many things we can't explain them all. For all we know the last scene of Men in Black might well be reality!

5t.

 

This isn't a debate, it's not even close. It is two sections of people, that are utterly convinced they are right and wil not be told otherwise. (Well more like one person, vs the rest of Scoobynet)

It is very, very funny to see people (rightly) saying that religions is often forced down peoples throats, only to then go onto be completely blinkered to any form of religious discussion, and be frankly insulting, rude and offensive to anyone who even dares to admit to being in the slightest bit spritual. It is irony at it's best.

What confounds me is the utter contempt some people here hold with religion, and those that follow it.

I mean, what , has it ever done to you? If someone decides to be religious, then so ****ing what? Why should they to justify themselves?

 

OK, so you opened the bible on a verse connected to pregnancy? That's one od those "whoa!" moments, we all have them. Pretty interesting arent' they?

However, have you considered all the times you have opened the bible to a page utterly unconnected to what you had been thinking about? It's like when someone you were thinking of suddenly rings you. Wow! But, more often than not, they don't ring, when you think of of them, or they ring when you are thinking of something else. It really isn't very mystifying at all.

As for your sister, I'm glad that she finally managed to have a baby. However, we too have suffered a miscarriage, and the thoughts of not wanting to do it again and then actually doing it again are very common. It's inherent in us to procreate, the disappointment of a miscarriage is soon replaced by the urge to try again.

This is just like the pain of childbirth is forgotten, or you'd never have any mor children! Anyone who has been at a birth will clearly remember their spouse/partner screaming in pain and saying never again!

On the flip side of this, I know a number of people who had miscarriages, multiples ones, were believers and yet 'The Lord' never delivered a child to them. Doesn't really tie into that vein of thinking does it?

You should read 'Beyond Coincidence' by Martin Plimmer, it may (though I doubt) open your eyes to alot of the things people regards as miracles.

It's also worth a visist to Why Won't God Heal Amputees? a most interesting read.

I don't think in that reply that I have rubbished any of what you have said, but I have put forward a perfectly reasonable argument.

Geezer