Jerome

I would argue that, although expensive, it is cheaper to lock up for good than to execute.

Most death row prisoners remain in prisoner for a very long time before being executed, due to multiple appeals. The guy in question was there for 20 years for example.

Also, the cost of each appeal is absolutely massive. Just one appeal would probably fund a decade or more of housing a prisoner.

I was a big advocate of the death penalty until I saw a documentary about a guy who was executed and then found to be innocent just weeks afterwards.

Luan Pra bang

Why it would make the UK a much, much nicer place to live ?

PeteBrant

In what way?

It wouldnt reduce the murder rate significantly, because it is tiny as it is - So why would more abortions make the UK a nicer place to live?

Luan Pra bang

Becuase it would reduce crime and would stop tax payer money being wasted on the worst elements of society.

The Zohan

Peter, how can you say it wouldn't, how do you qualify that sweeping remark?

Murder and violent crime is a problem and getting bigger, 10 years ago i do not remember hearing about gangs of kids kicking and beating people to death on the streets, pi$$ed and drugged up. it seems to be one a week at the moment.

we have a 100% increase in drinking amongst teenagers over a decade ago. I am not saying kill all teens BTW.

Are you saying the death penalty wouldn't make them think twice, we have the situations in this country mostly down too no boundaries or harsh punishments being in place. No fear or respect for the law on consequences. More protection, councelling and services for criminals over victims.

If you are prepared to take someones life in premeditated manner then i think you should be prepared to pay the ultimate price. We have gangs of criminals gravitating towards the UK fro abroad as they know the punishments are lighter and population softer and easier going. Says a lot in itself as to how criminals view the uk.

SJ_Skyline

You have to be more than certain when advocating he death penalty - which is why I am in general against it.

There are too many cases where people have been jailed for various crimes including murder and have subsequently been released after their convictions were proven to be wrong. One wrong conviction is one too many if the death penalty is involved. I'll take just one example although there are many to choose from. Angela Canning: Jailed for the murder of her baby. Her conviction was based on so-called expert witness evidence and the pathologist not realeasing all details of the autopsy to her defence.

Whilst it would be nice to have everything in black and white, I can't agree with a death penalty when there is room for error. Perhaps if I had greater faith in our legal system for getting it right then I might support it.

PeteBrant

It would reduce crime how? I don't follow.

Are you saying that children born to young single parents are genetically disposed to commiting crime?

PeteBrant

Because we already have evidence of the effect of having, and not having the death penalty.

I don't see what this has to do with abortions or the death penalty.
Think twice about what?

For the love of God, let's keep immigration out of at least one thread, eh?

warrenm2

The UK cannot introduce the death penalty whilst a member of the EU - its part of the membership criteria - to introduce it we would have to leave.....

dpb

in for a penny in for a pound , or not as it maybe

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

This has been done before, albeit in respect of a different case:

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...penalty-2.html

My POV from that thread:

With Pete on this one.

Gut instinct says that scum like this don't deserve to be on the streets and it would be much less expensive to just do away with them!

BUT

When looked at in terms of the objectives of punishment, the death penalty only really works on an "eye for an eye basis". Fine, revenge can be a valid, if dangerous motive.

The main problems I have with it are threefold. First, punishment is caried out on behalf of society, i.e. you and I. I don't want anyone killed on my behalf, not even this scum. Reason? I question the moral imperative of any justice system that condemns murder, but then sanctions it as a punishment.

Secondly, I think a life in prison is probably a more severe punishment. If it is currently an easy option, that should be changed, but that's not an excuse to bring in the death penalty - make doing time mean something again!

Thirdly, if the wrong person is convicted, there is nothing that can done once the sentence is executed. In this age of forensics, mistakes are rare, but they still happen and forensics are just a tool used by humans who are notoriously fallable and subject to corruption etc..

A wise man once said that if you wanted to examine the state of a society, look at the way it treats its outcasts!

The death penalty, though satisfying on a visceral level, would be a big step back for UK society.

Ns "case closed m'lord" 04

Geezer

The death penalty is not a deterrent! Just look at the crime figures for countries with and without, and it becomes obvious that it is no deterrent whatsoever.

Hell, in the 19th century you could be hanged for virtually anything, but crime was rife!

The problem is not how to punish them (but obviously you shouild be punished for committing a crime) , it's how to stop them getting into this cycle of violence and crime. Is that so difficult to see?

Geezer

mrtheedge2u2

TBH I would fully support capital punishment if it there was a system to ensure full proof guilt........

Luan Pra bang

Children born to single parent low income families are significantly more likely to commit crime and/or end up on benefits this is a fact proven by countless studies around the world..
By giving incentives for abortion instead of the current system which gives incentices to have children, It would help to reduce the burden of crime produced by low income single parent families teen mothers etc.

PeteBrant

I don't quite know where to begin with this.

(i)"More likely" does not equate "definitely going to". I think you will find that a significantly higer proportion of children that are born to single parent familes are no trouble at all to the authorities, than are.

(ii)Being on benefits is not really an excuse to kill someone

(iii)Incentivising abortions solely to potential single parents that are on benefits is morally bankrupt.

Give people the choice, by all means - but don't actively encourage it for gods sake.

VJ_STi

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry Pete but you are missing something here.

What would have been the average stay in prison for those people if they had not been executed ? If it was likely to be more than 14 years (which I bet it is) then yes it is "Cheaper to kill them".

As for the subject I don't have any particular view, but should the unthinkable ever happen and some ******* killed my little girl I wouldn't wait for the courts to serve justice I would kill them myself given half a chance.

So something that maybe needs to be asked is how would anyone here feel should their 'Special' person (Wife/Daughter/Son/Mum/Dad etc) be taken away from them by some murderer ?

And when you answer the question try looking at the person who could be taken from you and see if it has an effect on your answer.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

What about torture? Re-open the good 'ole' tower again!

Seriously though, why not. It doesn't have to lasting, such as deducting a few fingers and toes for theft or the removal of the 'vital' area for sex crimes.......hang on, maybe it should be like this!

My problem is believing that a child abductor has the ability to change at say 40 year old. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want to have to decide whether to let them out. Far too much of a risk.

Maybe a '3 strikes and you're out' system would work. Punishment would never be death, but pain. Then, trust me, they would learn.

PeteBrant

You should never, ever make a decision like this based on an emotive stance. Of course every parent would want to see anybody that hurt thier children suffer, but you cannot base any decision on that premise - You have to look at the issue in a detatched way to come up with clearest answer..

Removed.

In an ideal world, HANG THE BARSTEWARDS! Mind you in an ideal world there wouldn't be any crime

Unfortunately, we live in the real world, and the justice system isn't good enough to be sure you don't hang an innocent person, so lock them up and throw away the key.

Holy Ghost

i'm largely in agreement with PB here.

there's an old saying about english law that it's better for a guilty man to go free than an innocent one to go to jail. change "go to jail" to "die" and it rams home the implications of a miscarriage of justice under the death penalty. and those miscarriages have been, are and always will be inevitable - james hanratty in 1962 for one.

personally, i think death is too good for some of these people. why give them the comfort of oblivion over a lifetime of suffering stiff consequences? sure it costs, but it's the right moral cost.

my only (hawkish) qualifications are:

1. that high security prison time for such violent social detritus should be hard time. and why not? the numbers of such people are not large.

2. no frills; no liberal tosh about 'lack of life chances'; a place where where good behaviour gets you educated and bad behaviour gets you hard labour or seg. (guardianista polly toynbee please take note you miserable apologist cow).

3. that a life sentence means life - only one right of appeal to test the rigour of the case (new evidence coming to light or the discovery of police error/malpractice excepted of course).

4. tough remission criteria applied against a high fixed minimum tariff (35 years say?) and assessed strictly on a case-by-case basis only.

i'm sure that once upon a time, it was a little like this. but it appears to me that what we have today is neither fish nor foul and is ineffective as a result.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

I still think that re-opening the tower of london would be a good thing! 'Hurt someone and you will he hurt!'.

PeteBrant

The problem I have with this, is that once you stick someone it to break rocks, say, for 15 years, when they come out, they are completely unable to do anything but somethign that will land them inside again. Hence the reoffending rates are so high in the states.


I'm not saying we should take offenders and teach them the works of Chaucer and Shakespere whilst they laounge in smoking jackets, but in order to stop reoffending, surely you have equip them with the tools to make it on the outside.

Lily The Beige

I think ending some ones life as a punishment is to far

But I'm all for chopping a thiefs hand off

Underworld

am for it!!!!!
criminals know they will have (probably) an easier and better life in prison....... so they turn up whenever they like...
dats y some ppl keeps on comitting crimes to go to jail,

one capital punishment and u see how the prisons get vacant!!!! kill someone and get killed.....

Holy Ghost

**

pete, i agree. a 15 year sentence doesn't attract extreme sanction. i'm talking about the josef fritzls of the world, the reggie krays, the frankie frasers, the ian huntleys, the charles bronsons. different league. let such genetically dysfunctional scum do hard labour and suffer the agonies of time deprived. i don't care about the rehabilitation of such violent bad seed - because it isn't possible. and i'll wager, nor would 99% of the population. most would be happy to see such people swing at the end of a rope.

outside of the small cabal of hard-wired and extreme crimes, penal rehabilitation and atonement have a practical and necessary role - and mark, at the other end of the scale, a civilised and moral society that can practice both judgement, mercy and perspective.

Suresh

I believe some people are just bad. Nature rather than nurture as it were. Such people do not deserve a second chance in the version of reality that I inhabit. How else do you explain recidivism?

If however you believe that everything is about nurture, then you will continue to bark up the wrong tree by throwing cash at the criminals rather than at their victims

phil_wrx

iTrader: (2)

3 WORDS PEOPLE ..............



















THE RUNNING MAN

Holy Ghost

**

on. the. nail. bravo. it's just how we deal with that fact.

Suresh

If life meant life, then I'd be happy.

mart360

Cast your mind back 12 months .

Mr Hussain was waiting for his neck to be stretched.

the bleeding heart liberals were proclaiming it would make him a martyr, and it would be in the news constantly, as a reminder yada yada


Funny, after the initial hunt for the video on the web, you never hear of him now, and he most certainly never made martyr status.

I don't recall seeing loads of tit for tat Saddam reprisal hangings taking place do you?

isn't it funny though, we have no worries about offing dictators or war criminals, but mass murders & sex offenders seem to be off limits?

Mart