Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Cheeky!

£930 for the kit and a bit more for the extra stuff like battery and washer bottles etc.

All the details are on here and the website mate.

Wayne.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Just sorting my EGT gauge this week so I should have the ability to log EGT's on both petrol and LPG. If I can run 1.4 bar boost on LPG safely (1.4 bar boost does work with no increase in knock) with safe EGT's then I will see how the engine likes it.

This is a good read though, esp to do with combustion temps.
Propane Facts & Comparison Charts

crispyduck

iTrader: (1)

Welloilbeefhooked, Just found this/your thread. Thanks for the feedback you gave me via email the other day. Certainly hasn't put me off yet! I'll be following your EGT analysis.
-Steve.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

I'm fitting the probe today after getting the gauge and wiring sorted yesterday. I will have some data by Monday night all being well.

I won't be able to log via datalogit for a week or too as I need to order a 5v output module for the temp probe, but the cruise temps and a couple of WOT runs should be indication enough.

As I can log the wideband AFR then this should be enough for fine tuning the LPG ECU.

Wayne.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Today I got my Dyno Tune EGT gauge and sensor up and running.

The probe is mounted in the ported OE headers that I have in the same location where the lambda sensor would be on the early cars, so just before the up pipe.

I have reset my LPG ECU and set it up with only an autocalibration to see how far this is out from what is required.

I have 2 boost settings in my AVCR at the moment, 1bar flat and 1.45 taling off to 1.25 at 7k RPM.

My LC-1 wideband sensor and gauge were recalibrated before the testing.


First test was a full temperature cruise at 3.5k RPM in fifth gear.

At the same load the petrol reads 750c and the LPG reads 730c. This is with an AFR of 14.7 on both fuels. The AFR settings in the LC-1 were left on petrol.

The next test was a 1bar run in 4th gear.

At 6k RPM on petrol I have EGT's of 927 with an AFR or 12.2

At 6k RPM on LPG I have EGT's of 845 with an AFR or 10.9 (So the LPG needs trimming)


Even though I'm not testing the higher boost setting yet the petrol EGT at 6k RPM is 950 with an AFR of 11.2.

At idle after a good run I have 450c on petrol and 435c on LPG.

So, unitl I get the LPG mapped to the same petrol AFR at 1bar boost I'm leaving the higher settings alone.

From previous logs my IGN timing at 1bar on petrol is around 25-26 degrees.


What are peoples thoughts on the EGTS and AFRS shown above?

The 1 bar boost area is part of the map done by my mapper a couple of years ago and nothing has changed since.

Wayne.

crispyduck

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, From what I've read recently (no first-hand experience) I was expecting you to report LPG with higher EGT figures.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Steve,

Apparently the problem with LPG is that it does burn hotter, but for a shorter period of time. So this would hold true for the lower temps.

I need to work on the LPG matching the fuel AFR's before it will be meaningful.

Wayne.

satpink

iTrader: (9)

good read this, thinking of getting lpg on my new scoob, going for a sti7 bugeye, there was a guy advertising on ebay, from sheffield i think, i got in touch & he quoted me £1400 all in, is there any specific questions i should be asking him, about the conversion? a total noob to this lpg, he seems to think there wont be any problems fitting it & it running ok on boost

CDF Racing

iTrader: (49)

Top work mate! good read

Cornelius

iTrader: (2)

Very interesting thread.

Only found one fault, in the above Propane facts, it says there are 3 main types of propane, automotive HD5, commercial propane and propane/butane mix.

There isn't a special automotive LPG, it's just your bog standard Commercial grade propane. Slightly off topic but along the same lines is the BBQ gas you can buy in most DIY/garden centres, the gas isn't anything special, again, it's standard Propane gas.

Easiest way of checking this is to look for the flammable liquid warning diamond, just below this, you will see a UN number, UN 1978 signifies commercial grade Propane, which has a boiling temperature of -47 deg C.
Also 1 litre of liquid propane will give 250 litres of vapour when boiling off.

It don't happen very often, but sometimes the octane rating of propane can be slightly higher as methanol is added to main storage tanks to combat what's known as "wet gas" where there is water contamination. Methanol seperates the water from the gas so it can be drained off at a supply depot.

I've worked at Calor Gas for 10 years as a maintenace engineer, at one of their biggest supply depots in the UK at Coryton, they have 5 main storage tanks, each holding 65 metric tonnes, and only 2 types of gas are stored and used, UN1978 Commercial Propane and UN1011 Commercial Butane.
From this depot, they supply most of the autogas to petrol stations etc for most of South England, not to mention where demand is high, also supplying Shell autogas.

Calor also stores High purity LPG, but this is only used to test/develop new products, and not for public use.

scooby(puppy power)

ive read on another post or website about probs converting subarus with solid lifters, i've got a 2001 wrx bugeye does anyone know if this has solid lifters or not ive been on the scoobylpg website and all looks good, being working it out and i reckon the milage i do it would take 10 to 12 months to pay for itself (bargain) how hard is it to break into the injector wires etc, dont mind doing all the fitting and drilling, just not to sure about starting to cut the looms,

ps dont want to fit it for me do you obviously for some dollars lol

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

You need a system that is capable of supplying enough gas for the application. Although, a smaller system can be set to return to petrol at higher RPM. (Just to add that you can run LPG and Petrol (at the same time) at high RPM if required. This should give some cooling to the vavles)

I can't comment too much on the boost issues as I am still testing, but it does seem to be ok so far at 1.25bar. As I have mentioned either here or on another post I have run 1.45 bar and it did run fine. As for this causing any issues only time will tell, but I can't see why it would.

Find out what the kit is and the supplier details then go over to LPG Discussion Forum and have a look over there. You will probably get a response/opinion to any of these question from a guy called RossKo who to be honest is very fair about his opinions.

Wayne.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Is it possible to get hold of some official tech docs for this? Not questioning your info but it would be nice to get away from "he said this and he said that" type of info that is banded about on the web.

Wayne.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

The issue with the solid lifters is that there is not automatic adjustment for wear and the work inlvolved if seats did wear. The Impreza "apparently" has soft valve seats and needs to be monitored closely. I use flashlube which is supposed to stop this wear but I'm still in two minds as to what difference it makes. The lubrication from unleaded petrol is small to non existent. It does however provide cooling to the valves and the "dirtier" burn causes soot that also helps the exhaust valve seats. My BiGas system actually states that you should aviod fitting LPG to the 4 cyl subaru boxer engine!!!

The loom work is fairly easy to do. I cut into the wires on the OS of the car near the battery. It was the last thing I did during the installation. Finding the wires is a case of tracing the colours back to the car side of the loom and then using a multimeter to find the negative side of the injector.

You can buy a pre made loom that clips directly into the existing injector loom and therefore requires no cutting at all. £20 ish.
If you do cut the loom make sure every connection is soldered.

As for fitting a kit, I'm not going to be doing any for anyone else as I already have 3 family/friend members waiting. I'm doing the GF's BMW 320 and a mates IS200 very shortly, both of which are 6 cylinder engines that are proven to run strong on LPG.

Wayne.

Cornelius

iTrader: (2)

I no longer work for Calor Gas, so can't get hold of the COSHH (Control Of Substances Hazardous to Health) data sheets but do a google search for propane COSHH, and there's plenty of information.

Also, there's more information on LPG conversions on their website Calor - UK LPG supplier

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Right then!

Got it all mapped and running nice at 1.3 bar on LPG. I have the same AFR reading from my wideband so the gas is matching the petrol. As this runs lower EGT's than petrol throughout the load ranges I have been trying a leaner mixture.

It doesn't seem to make any difference to the power output so its back to its previous petrol AFR matching state.

I will report back with info on how its doing shortly.

Might even get the time to update the website too.

Wayne.

crispyduck

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, Thanks for the update, very interesting. I assume the 'mapping' you refer to is the customisation allowed within the BiGas module? You've left your ECU mapping as is (for petrol) right?
I'm asking because I've mapped my own ECU so happy with that just don't have a dual map facility at the moment.
-Steve.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Steve, I mapped the petrol ECU and then sorted the Gas ECU after as its close but not close enough!

It needed fuel taking out at the top end as it was way too rich. Down in the 9's!!

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Just to update really.

The car is still running fine and I now run it at 1.4bar on gas all the time. No signs of erroding the platinum spark plugs, they are just fine. No increase in valvetrain noise, although the flashlube is now at a quarter of the recommended dose.
No running problems at all.

Here is a spreadsheet that shows my fuel usage since conversion.

Overall in 6 months I have saved on fuel just short of £100 per month.

I have calculated this due to the fact that I get around 20 ish to the gallon on gas and 25 ish on petrol so I am only getting 80% of the miles on gas that I would on petrol for the same amount.

So my saving is 40% on the price of petrol.

Bear in mind that this is combined fuel economy as the car is used for work and play.

http://www.smitheyclose.co.uk/scooby...el%20costs.xls

Cheers,

Wayne.

crispyduck

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, encouraging update, thanks for that. Do the 'petrol' items in the spreadsheet relate to the amount of petrol you use before it switches to LPG? If yes, is that included in your cost analysis?
-Steve.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Steve, yes. That shows how much petrol is used before it switches over and how much is used as I sometimes switch it back to petrol for the odd blast simply to keep an eye on AFR' EGT's etc. I sometimes get to the point where I run out of gas too!! I just let it switch to petrol and carry on driving.

I think it's only around £20 per month for the petrol though. I worked out a while ago that my overall saving is around 40% and that includes the odd £20 of petrol, so the petrol is included in the cost analysis. Also, when optimax was more then double the cost of LPG, the savings would have been more.

Wayne.

crispyduck

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, your actual findings seem consistent with the calculations I did a while back (see attached). I was looking to see my break even point in the worst case using the most expensive kit fitted by the most expensive dealer. I do a lot of miles in the Scooby (twice your mileage by the look of it) so would break even in 12 months or less if the price of fuel goes up. My saving calculations were around 45% from then but that did not include petrol cold-start usage like yours, nor Flash Lub, nor annual LPG service/inspection (if required).
-Steve.
[Attachment 1:] http://www.scoobypedia.co.uk/uploads...Conversion.xls

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Steve,

I'm still debating the need for flashlube at all. But at the dosage I use I have not yet used a litre!

Also, although non scooby related, I have just finished the Mrs's BMW 320CI 6 cylinder which again drives perfectly. This is using no falshlube at all.

One thing that annoys me about the BMW is that within 30 seconds of starting the engine the car is warm enough and on LPG. The scoob takes a fair bit longer to warm up and switch over. I think I may revisit the water connections some time soon.

Cheers,

Wayne.

Damocell

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, my LPG kit switches over very quickly from cold....although ran the car at scoobyclinic the other day and it ran fine on petrol but ran far too lean on boost on LPG. I think the pressure is too low but should know more soon.

I notice you are running a one hole tank with a multivalve, any reason why you didn't go for a 4 hole??

I'm getting the software and lead over the next few days, you fancy taking a look for me?

Damo

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Hey up Damo!

Pressure too low? When mine runs the "running" gas pressure of 1.5bar it easliy copes with 1.4bar boost. If I had it set to 1.3bar gas pressure it would simply cut back to petrol at 1.4bar boost and not run lean. I'm not sure that this is the case with all systems, but you will know more when you get the software and lead, which BTW are probably the same as the ones I have already.

Also, I have a meaty vaporisor to provide a good supply of gas. The size of LPG pipe from the tank (8mm in my case) can also have an effect.

The main 2 reasons why you would run lean, if the above 2 points have been addressed would be 1) The vaporisor isn't receiving enough heat from the water pipes and is therefore allowing the gas to freeze or 2) The settings within the ECU are wrong or the injectors are the wrong size.

Give me a bell anytime today or tomorrow as I'm off work.

Wayne.

Damocell

iTrader: (1)

Nice one Wayne, I'll try to call in my lunch break.

The pipes are 8mm and the vapouriser should be good for 450bhp apparently. The injectors are red and 3ohm???? and the nozzels are drilled to 2.8mm.

It was quite strange and before it went on the dyno it wasn't running right but as soon as the turbo started to make boost the AFR's started to drop and then simply went through the roof, IIRC it hit 16 within a few hundred rpm so they cut the run short.

Managed to speak to the technical support for my kit and they thought it could be because of a one hole tank, but I have a four hole tank or the pressure hasn't been set correctly.

I also want a to find out what you think to runnin the petrol and LPG injectors off one ECU as I have been talking to a company about doing just that.

Damo

Damocell

iTrader: (1)

Wayne, when you say gas pressure of 1.5bar is that at idle? should/does it change under load??

Damo

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

I know we covered this today, but just for reference for others, the 1.5bar should remain constant at any load/rpm.

Wayne.

skd03

Hi,
I have a MY2000 Forester S Turbo (EDM). I converted my Forester to LPG with Teleflex Gfi conv. kit. Now I have some calibration problems. My car is standard except 3" catless dp and catless mp and Remus backbox. I have Lc1 and EGT sensor. I didn't change LC1 setting to LPG, now it shows 10.0, very rich. Tonight we will recalibrate it (with mechanic).
I want to calculate correct PWM value for fine tuning. I don't know my car's standard injector capacity. LPG injectors are 2.75mm, 204kPA (flow rate is 3g/s) Teleflex Power Systems - GFI Alternative Fuel Systems
How can I calculate LPG injector capacity?
Regards.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

You should be leaving the LC-1 setting to petrol as this is what the petrol ECU needs to see to get the correct fueling. That is the case as long as the LPG ecu piggybacks the petrol ecu.

On my system you get the petrol injector values to be the same on both petrol and LPG. This is done at various load conditions and is diplayed in the software used as "Tinj petrol". Once the petrol injector times remain the same on both fuels, the system should be calibrated. Mine also ran the low 9's-10's before I tweaked it a little bit. Its not such a bad thing having it a little rich up top.

Have you been to LPG Discussion Forum Ask a guy named Rossko for his advice.

Wayne.