PeteBrant

There's nothing wrong in that.

But at the same time, you will gain absolutely nothing by fighting it with violence. You will gain everything with discussion and a bit of give and take.

It has been proven time and time again.

andythejock01wrx

Well balanced post Les.

AndytJ

Luan Pra bang

I am not sure that I agree though. I have not seen any indication that any one in the world would help an ounce if Palestine and Jordan turned to diplomatic means they would be too easy to ignore and as nations they would cease to exist. The occupied areas have towns and communities built on them they would never have been built and people placed there if Israel had any intention to give them back. Its the same for the golan heights. Israel took it the UN told them off for occupying it Israel then just placed settelers on it and now they claim it to be their own.

Hoppy

A few facts. Not many answers

My brother is a British Christian, married to a Polish refugee, living in Jerusalem. He teaches Arabic, as my father did. He has many friends - Muslims, Jews, Christians, you name it. They are all desperately saddened and worried by the situation, and equally bewildered.

Jerusalem is highly multi-cultural and the local people from a myriad of backgrounds and religions, appear to live peacefully together, side by side with the (utterly fabulous) Dome of the Rock, the Wailing Wall, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Hamas and Hezbolah can't agree amongst themselves, there are equally strong divisions within the Jewish community, all being stirred from afar by Iran. Beirut used to be a wonderful city - Gateway to the East - and it stayed that way for decades after Israel was established. Lebanon is a beautiful country and so are the vast majority of its people.

My doctor is an Egyptian Muslim (in Cairo as I write) and shakes his head at the way his fellow countrymen have turned their backs on Gaza.

My favourite resturant in Jerusalem (Azura) is run by Iraquis. You could not wish for nicer food or a warmer welcome. And all you can eat, plus a beer, for less than a McDonalds.

Many peoples can lay a claim to the territory of Israel - it just depends which bit of history you choose to support your belief. However, Israel is not going away, and is permanently surrounded by a swarm of warring factions who refuse to accept this. The Middle East is a tragedy without any solution soon.

Pick the bones out of that lot.

Richard

Klaatu

I guess the area could be returned to it's pre-1948 borders, might solve one or two issues.

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

It won't solve hatred as hatred has no borders

Klaatu

You'd be hateful too if your country, and sacred gounds, were whisked away from you by a foriegn nation in 1948 by simply re-drawing some lines on a map.

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

After the years of fighting though do you really think changing the borders to pre 1948 would actually help the modern day crisis?

Hoppy

Agreed. I assume you mean hatred of the Jews but it's worse than that. The only thing that truly unites the Arab nations is hatred of Israel. Of course, you can't turn the clock back to pre-1948 but if that was possible, the chaos among the warring Arab factions would make the current conflict look like a picnic.

Jerusalem is, believe it or not, one of the safest cities in the world, but of course massively significant to many squabbling religions. Whatever you think of the politics, the general stability and genial nature of the local people is largely down to Israeli rule. It certainly isn't perfect, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Richard.

andythejock01wrx

You might as well have said "let's evict all the jews". Not a solution.

A better and more realistic solution would be to return to the pre 1967 borders.

AndytJ

Klaatu

I am glad someone else knows some part of the real history behind the problems in that region, I was just waiting for someone else to mention it.

Suresh

I was shocked at Egypt's reaction to the border being breached recently. The Arab world obviously doesn't give a toss about the Palestinians. They need to get to grips with the reality of their situation, ditch Hamas and get back to the negotiating table. Violence only begets more violence

andythejock01wrx

I had an interesting discussion with an off duty IDF soldier a couple of years ago, when travelling in Australia.

He was amazed that a Brit like myself had some knowledge of his country's history. I did suggest things would be a lot better if the Israeli's returned the lands they took during the 1967 war. He said there was "no point because the arabs will keep attacking Israel indefinitely" ! Surely it's worth a try !

Hoppy

That is a widely held belief in Israel and given the background of constant calls from Arab nations for "Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth" it is easy to understand why.

One of the reasons for maintaining current borders is to keep the constant rocket attacks away from major populated areas. Just imagine the Israeli response if a few big ones were popped over the border and strike Tel Aviv. WW3 anyone?

Richard

andythejock01wrx

I suppose that is understandable, but in keeping the borders as they are, the Israelis are doing their bit to perpetuating the conflict. The solution is clearly not missiles fired from Apaches.

Hoppy

Now it gets difficult. The deeper you go into this subject, the more complex it becomes. I spent six weeks with my brother in Israel last year thinking that I knew something about what was going on. It is massively complicated and all I really learned from my visit is that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing (as George Bush is a model example).

You could equally argue that continual rocket attacks and suicide bombers from Gaza and elsewhere is what is actually "perpetuating the conflict". But then, disproportionate retaliation from Israeli Apaches etc is equally antagonistic. And so it goes on...

Richard.

Klaatu

I don't think it would be WW3, but any attack on Israel would be dealt with severely given Israel is backed by the US.

Hoppy

Yes, Israel is backed by the US, but the US doesn't control Israel. Some argue that it's actually the other way around.

If there was a major escalation of hostilities, there's no predicting what Israel would do, the US would be powerless to stop it, and the UN would, no doubt, continue to sit on its hands.

Israel believes that Iran is the major enemy and will go to any lengths to defend their position. So Tehran gets a big one dropped on them, Russia gets involved, it escalates to the rest of Muslim Asia, not to mention the other oil-rich Middle Eastern states. That sounds like WW3 to me.

Sorry to be pessimistic and alarmist, but that is a very real scenario. Short term threat is Iran going nuclea, which appears to be only a matter of time. That will cause massive destabilisation and we'll have another cold war Cuban-style Crisis but with lunatics on either side, fingers at the ready.

Richard.

Klaatu

Agreed. But the US will have the launch codes for any nukes Irael has (A bit like the British nuclear deterant).

Hoppy

Well, I don't know about that kind of detail, but I do know that the US will not have any launch codes for Iranian nukes. And Israel is unlikely to use nuclear power initially - just a fookin great bomb on Iranian nuclear installations. That's enough to kick things off big style.

As I recall, it only took somebody to lose an ear to start WW1

Richard.

Klaatu

I reckon Israel will be attacked probably not in my lifetime, it's inevitabel really (The stupidity of human kind lead/fooled by religion), and Israel will strike back with force reducing the whole region to a radioactive wasteland.

The "start" of both WW1 (The "great" war, yeah right) and WW2 have origins in the Bulkans, a troubled region for 1000's of years. Maybe with independence the region will improve over time. I think not!

freedomfighter

hi richard aka hoppy, i will keep it civilized mate , we have had many an arguement over the yrs, its me moses, so i will try my best not tae lose it this time.

first of all richard, u and i have had many an arguement over israel, lebanon war my friend, plz just for once dont hide behind a christian name coz u r jewish and always have been and a zionist one at that and have fought and defended israel wae yer life on the forum against arguments wae me, i respect yer views of defending a **** regime in israel coz u r a zionist, i have no quarrel aboot that, we r entitled tae oor views for sure but plz dont hide behind a christian name, u remind me of the zionists who use silly brainless proxy christians tae fight their wars for them coz they dont have the gutts tae dae it themselves and use the guilt of the holocaust tae get their way.

richard as a well educated gentleman, it hurts me that u r like the rest of the zionist media who twist the worlds of mad ahmadinejad aboot just like the soviet regime woz wiped off the map so would israel be when in fact he talks aboot the regime in his native language of farsi.

iran aint outta control , the only country oot of control inthe middle east is this nasty state called israel the occupier and genocide and holocaust committer, the trouble making cancer of the middle east, palestinians have every right tae defend their land, they r the modern day spartans, u talk aboot rockets landing in israel silly stupid home made qassams which probably killed a handful of settlers when israel has the 4th most powerful army in the world and tanks, apaches, jetfighters and the only country in the middle east which illegally has nuclear weapons, if israel can have nuclear weapons every country in the middle east should have it tae,israel gets away wae it coz its the so called democracy, im sorry i aint seen britain, germany,france or sweden occupy anyone in the last 50 yrs and slaughter them and bulldoze their homes and call someone elses country their own and lock up innocents and torture them in jail and slaughter their children and cut aff their gas and electricity and make life hell for innocent palestinians.


so stop acting as if israel is the victim when in fact they r the persecutors and arabs hate israel as jews hate hitler.

day and nite the zionists and neocons plot evil against iran and i wont blame iran for telling the truth or speaking the truth aboot the cancer called israel and personally i hope they get nuclear weapons so israel will think twice before inciting harm against an innocent nation called iran.

just last week when this dodgy dossier woz oot in the open in the british papers aboot the evil blair regime and bush regime creating all these lies tae invade a nation of iraq which never harmed the usa or britain and slaughtered innocent iraqi's in the process and destroyed their country it woz said that the british government originally had israel and iraq as the nuclear troublemakers inthe region and the british government decided tae blot oot israel fae the dossier just in case it harms the relationships wae israel and its ally.

is this not a crime, is anyone gonna take them tae the haque for justice, not at all, foreign policy , can u believe it,they ommitted israel fae this dodgy dossier so it dont hurt its relationship.


wake up and smell the coffee richard and yes if israel dae attack iran, i promise u israels destruction,. maybe its the only thing that will unite the muslim world against this evil doer called israel


thats my tuppence worth

cheers


israel reminds me of the ungrateful hebrews when God and moses rescued and freed them fae egypt they were always so ungrateful and rebellious and doing evil against their own and others, it woz so bad that God got fed up in the bible the old testament he told prophet moses im gonna destroy them for once and for all and prophet moses rebuked him and said , oh lord did u free yer people tae only come tae the desert and u destroy them.

so God repented, i dont believe in that story but it kinda makes sense when i see whit israel does and uses Gods name and religion tae dae evil as dae the christian and muslim fanatics


cheers

GaryCat

...and that is why we would all be better off without this delusional, divisive and dangerous 'god' nonsense.

freedomfighter

hi gary , good morning

not true at all mate, whit religion did hitler, stalin, polpot , noguira follow , none at all mate, u really believe people like george w bush and fanatics who use religion for their evil purpose r religious and followers of a religion, nae chance mate, its all a gimmick.

which rapist. drug dealer , pimp, murderers who stab folk tae steal their money and kill them, which religion dae they use tae commit such evil, none at all dude, they dont believe in religion or God


i hope u understand where am coming fae


cheers

also gary i read this, a heartwarming story, we need mair people like this judge and lawyer, God works in awesome ways and through all the bitterness and hatred theirs good folk who help their fellow humans

have a read


In rare ruling, court orders settlers off Arab family's land - Haaretz - Israel News

Leslie

Good to see some common sense in that link.

Les

freedomfighter

thanks mate, hope u r well, i like good humanity stories like them, its whit we need mair of in this world

cheers

finalzero

MISUSE AND ABUSE OF ANTI-SEMITISM « Desertpeace

MY WORLD IS DARK AND SILENT « Desertpeace

RACISM STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN ISRAEL ~~ ADMITTED TO BY ISRAELI SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE « Desertpeace

Gaza Diary: Sewage on our doorstep :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dall'Iraq occupato :: news from occupied Iraq :: - it

I think its a tragedy what is going on there right now... ALL of the middle east problems are centred around this one area i.e Palestine and Israel. I get angry when I read and watch recent events unfold.. how the Israeli goverment (even defying it's own Israeli people's concerns) goes about executing collective punishment to an entire race of people.

Equally you have corrupt Palestinians who have no desire for peace, simply fueling their own ignorance and vengful desire to retaliate to the recent inhuman act by the IDF (like shooting a 12 year old through the head).

It's a perpetual state of voilence that seems to have no end.. neither side is willing to give into some humanity and bring about an end to the bloodshed while the world simply looks on. It's interesting to mention the holocaust.. it happened and people suffered yet here we have the Israeli goverment performing like an oppressive regime hell bent on ethnic cleansing.

It's a shame, with all the wealth being poured into the next planned wars, if some of that effort was put into actually trying to stop the voilence between Israel and Palestine I am sure the whole Middle East region would be a far better place than it is now.

Hoppy

Hello FF. Yes, good link. New Jewish settlers are not popular with many Israelis, as they tend to plant themselves near politically sensitive borders with the intention of making it harder for Israel to make territorial concessions even if it wanted to. Many reasonable Israelis see this as unnecessary antagonism, which of course it is.

But to the thrust of your post. I have tried to keep my posts factual, although some speculation is bound to creep in. But please let me address some of your personal accusations relating to my political views and stance.

I am not Jewish. My full name is Richard Evan Hopkins which I believe to have Welsh origins in the (very) distant past. My 'religion' is atheist. My only link with Israel is that my brother married a Polish Jew. I have stronger links with Lebanon, and many friends there whom I grew up with in the village of Shemlan.

I am not a **** and please accept that the use of this term in modern society, in relation to its inevitable connection with the unspeakable evil that was the Third Reich, is extremely offensive. Neither am I fascist nor racist. Rather more the opposite, in fact, at least compared to many on SN

I am a Zionist in that, according to the correct dictionary definition, I recognise the existance of Israel. No more. This also makes most of Britain Zionist, the government Zionist, and the UN also Zionist. I will concede though, that if it was 1947, and with the benefit of our current hindsight, the state of Israel might be considered differently to mutual benefit. However, we are were we are, and I support that (given no alternative).

Quote from you "so stop acting as if israel is the victim when in fact they r the persecutors and arabs hate israel as jews hate hitler." Well, that's a slighly exagerated comparison, and I think it was Hitler who was none too fond of Jews (or any other non-Aryan race for that matter, including Muslims) not the other way round. So why not direct your wrath at Germany, since it was they, after WW2, who led directly to the formation of Israel? Or let's turn the clock back a little further, when the Romans ejected the Jews from Israel, forcing them to scatter firstly across Euope and later to the rest of the world. Maybe Israel belongs to Italy? Of course, I am not being serious, but it would be quite easy to make a strong case in support of either cause. You just have to be selective of your facts, if you take my point.

Regards,

Richard.

PS Edited to add crossed post with FZ above. I will read the links later

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

What the **** have these drivelling posts go to do with the OP it was about a dodgy TV programme (if anybody can remember it was about a dodgy Hamas programme teaching hatred) but as soon as a little bit of religion is mentioned you get a few people getting on their high horses and have to drag the whole anti Jew,anti Muslim bollocks again

**** off over there and do something to help them instead of sitting at your keyboard.

freedomfighter

hi richard my belief still stands aboot u but for arguements sake lets get on wae the talk.

why should i blame germany for whit israeli ****;s did tae palestinians, they had plotted stealing land long time before hitler ever came tae power the balfour declaration and all goes back long before that, askhkenazi jews r themselves aryan as the aryan muslims r etc and the turks, armenians, chechens, indo europeans and central asians as a whole , u and i know that, germanic people where the descendents of part aryans only not the purest.

romans ejected the jews just like the jews ejected the ancient palestinians and other native folk of palestine and commited massacres and raped their women and kids and slaughtered them and their animals as in the bible, palestine did never belong tae the jews, after liberation they come and take someone elses land and commit atrocities coz they were the so called Gods chosen people or higher race as they called themselves as did hitler and did tae palestine,. canaan and other lands as hitler did tae them, they had it coming.

the land woz never theirs tae begin wae, after living for thousands of yrs in arab lands and persian and central asian and european lands these ashkenazi come tae palestine and start ethnically cleasing another nation who had nothing tae dae whit germany did and made life a living hell for the past 60 yrs , i hope another roman or babylonian avenger comes upon israel ameen, just like the old times.

sorry dude most of the brits aint zionist, God bless the brits, at least they have a brain and unlike the americans know whit happens and r against the filthy foreign policy , u shall be surprised.

for us zionists means=scumbags, oppressors and commiters and tolerant of genocide of another people.


every palestinian child is the the new moses , just like the hero prophet moses peace be upon him and when God had given rope tae pharoah tae dae whit he wanted and he woz destroyed by God and his servant prophet moses peace be upon him and the same shall happen against this oppressor state of israel.

regarding the holocaust their woz a holocaust of germans and other innocent folk by the russian jews and bolsheviks as well, also a holocaust of early middle eastern christians who the jews commited slaughter against and handed tae the romans tae be fed tae the lions and slaughtered in the collisuems if u dae wanna go that far, choice is yours


cheers

i had alot of sympathy for the holocaust victims my dream used tae be one day i would luv the opportunity tae look after a few and make sure their end times be peaceful and loving and kind, its my duty tae them as a human tae serve them, i still feel the same, over the yrs i have been so densensitized coz of the filth which is called israel and the zionists, that all has tarnished my feelings and when i read the same holocaust survivors who became settlers and the irgun and stern gang who killed innocent arabs and people, it really boils my blood


i now understand why God made the perfect warrior which is called muslim, he said he will raise another nation and thats muslims and as long as they r alive, the zionists will never have their way ameen