Heathrow Airplane Crash!
#151
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Something isn't adding up here - AAIB says engines never responded to throttle commands from either the Autothrottle or the crew advancing the levers.
The throttle system on the 777 is extremely complex and has many modes of operation but as with all the aircraft systems has numerous failsafes.
Will be interesting to see the final report to see how the crew were prevented from disconnecting the autothrottle and using manual thrust.
Flightman - PM me will you , I have a feeling you might be able to do a favour for me
The throttle system on the 777 is extremely complex and has many modes of operation but as with all the aircraft systems has numerous failsafes.
Will be interesting to see the final report to see how the crew were prevented from disconnecting the autothrottle and using manual thrust.
Flightman - PM me will you , I have a feeling you might be able to do a favour for me
#152
Reports i've read say the engines may have gone into reverse at circa 400ft, the engines i believe go into reverse thrust just prior to touchdown automatically.
It was mentioned that if the computer thought the plane was lower than it actually was this would cause the engines to go into reverse.
This would also account for the sudden 'Fall' and witness reports of the engines gunning it.
It was mentioned that if the computer thought the plane was lower than it actually was this would cause the engines to go into reverse.
This would also account for the sudden 'Fall' and witness reports of the engines gunning it.
I also mentioned the Airbus which crashed into some trees during a demonstration flight because for some reason of its own the computer would not allow the engines to increase power. The flight control system had to be redesigned.
Years ago there was also a case with a 757 where the computers would not allow more engine power in the same way but at high altitude. One of the pilots had to descend into the compartment below the flight deck and re-rack the computers to get the engines back!
They now say that the problem began at 600 feet which made the handling pilot's job even more difficult since he was 2/3 of a mile further away from the airfield and although he was 200 feet higher, the problem would cause him to lose even more height over the greater distance. All credit to him for saving all those lives.
I was sorry to see some people being so quick to quote "pilot error"
Les
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Will be interesting to see the final report to see how the crew were prevented from disconnecting the autothrottle and using manual thrust.
The investigation is now focussed on more detailed analysis of the flight recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation. (AAIB Report)
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Unfortunatelly, while all the fail-safe systems make modern airliners very easy to fly, they sometimes don't cope if operated in a way which they weren't designed for. The TAM A320 crash in Brazil was caused by the pilot only moving only one throttle to reverse thrust because the thrust reverser on the other engine was locked out of use. This cased one engine to deploy reverse thrust, but the aircraft demanded power from the other engine as if performing a go-round because it had been left in the autothrottle position.
I'm not suggesting pilot error in the Heathrow crash - more likely a complete failure of an aircraft driven system.
#155
Les, I think the Paris air show crash was effectively caused by pilot error. He put the aircraft into 'landing' mode in order to get it to do a very slow fly-by (something which the aircraft wasn't designed to do). By the time he throttled-up towards the end of the runway, the engines didn't have time to respond (they take about 6 seconds to spool up to full thrust) and the aircraft fell into the trees. If you watch the video, you can hear the engines start to screem just as the plane starts to clip the trees.
Unfortunatelly, while all the fail-safe systems make modern airliners very easy to fly, they sometimes don't cope if operated in a way which they weren't designed for. The TAM A320 crash in Brazil was caused by the pilot only moving only one throttle to reverse thrust because the thrust reverser on the other engine was locked out of use. This cased one engine to deploy reverse thrust, but the aircraft demanded power from the other engine as if performing a go-round because it had been left in the autothrottle position.
I'm not suggesting pilot error in the Heathrow crash - more likely a complete failure of an aircraft driven system.
Unfortunatelly, while all the fail-safe systems make modern airliners very easy to fly, they sometimes don't cope if operated in a way which they weren't designed for. The TAM A320 crash in Brazil was caused by the pilot only moving only one throttle to reverse thrust because the thrust reverser on the other engine was locked out of use. This cased one engine to deploy reverse thrust, but the aircraft demanded power from the other engine as if performing a go-round because it had been left in the autothrottle position.
I'm not suggesting pilot error in the Heathrow crash - more likely a complete failure of an aircraft driven system.
Yes I certainly know how long it takes to spool jet engines up, and of course one flies with that in mind at all times so that you dont get into a situtaion where you might need the power quickly from the idle postion. Had enough practice at that one The Olympus 300 series used to take longer than 6 seconds too from idle! The Spey was a bit faster I think.
I do find it a bit of a concern that modern systems are designed to operate as you say. The A320 problem you menntioned is a case in point. It is as though the systems are being designed to operate "by numbers" and I can see how under pressure that can lead to problems when the aircrew are operating under a common sense attitude instead of having to remember complicated requirements like that. Control systems which are often required to operate quickly should remain absolutely simple in their requirements. There are time when the pilots' normal methods of operating are more important than the control systems deciding for them and the traps that can lead to as you described. Even autopilots and autothrottles used to disengage the moment you overrode them.
It will be interesting to see what happened in the case of the 777.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 19 January 2008 at 12:18 PM.
#156
Les, Pilots make errors, the aircraft generally don't generally lose both engines and land short of the runway, pilot error is a factor in a fair proportion of accidents, people do make mistakes, I am sure that as a pilot you must have made the odd one. That is not to criticise what is generally a very professional group of people but you do hear about the odd one going postal or turning up still p1ssed from the night before.
Luckily, as the accident leaves a fairly intact plane with the recorders found and intact, the cause should be easier to find than if it had ended up in the sea or a mountain.
Luckily, as the accident leaves a fairly intact plane with the recorders found and intact, the cause should be easier to find than if it had ended up in the sea or a mountain.
#157
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In all seriousness, if the guy who actually landed the plane had made an almightly **** up, im pretty sure if i was the captain along side him at the time, i would be distancing myself from him not praising him in a press conference, as has happened.
Im not sure politically how it works with airlines, pilots, etc but surely if the captain knew an error was made, he wouldnt go public praising the guy who made the error?
Im not sure politically how it works with airlines, pilots, etc but surely if the captain knew an error was made, he wouldnt go public praising the guy who made the error?
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Does anyone honestly think BA would have paraded the crew in front of the worlds media, given them a statement that allowed them to praise the fantastic work done by all the crew, after having debriefed them and been able to ascertain what went wrong, IF THEY'D BALLSED UP THE LANDING?
Purlease......
Purlease......
#161
Does anyone honestly think BA would have paraded the crew in front of the worlds media, given them a statement that allowed them to praise the fantastic work done by all the crew, after having debriefed them and been able to ascertain what went wrong, IF THEY'D BALLSED UP THE LANDING?
Purlease......
Purlease......
I still think that its human error, we have been told it wasn't weather and to be honest the public wont want to hear it it's down to the Plane, software or hardware, the 777 has been around for long enough to be tried and tested and 999.99999999999999999999 times out of a 1000 they land on the runway, not before, not after.
It hadn't run out of fuel due to the amount swilling around the lights as per Flightmans post, it wasn't the weather, it wasn't a bird strike as the theres non on the video and it would have to be two big ones that synchronised their efforts.
I suspect it's down to Pilot error or maintenance problems , why did the captain point out it was the second officer flying the plane (which rules out the autoland) ?
Otherwise the 777 is unsafe and will be grounded.
#162
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Does anyone honestly think BA would have paraded the crew in front of the worlds media, given them a statement that allowed them to praise the fantastic work done by all the crew, after having debriefed them and been able to ascertain what went wrong, IF THEY'D BALLSED UP THE LANDING?
Purlease......
Purlease......
I do however, think that in this case this is not what is happening
#163
The Captain can try and shift the blame all he wants - the fact is he was still in charge of that flight and must carry the ultimate responsibility. He can't just shift the blame.
#165
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of course they had a choice. Jesus guys this is getting silly. Whilst I am not a pilot I work with enough of them to know the breed. There is no way this was pilot error. BA SOP is to allow the FO to take the landing for short finals. Its how FO's get experience and how they become captains. Safety is everything in modern aviation nothing is done before considering it no matter how benefial it may be Wait for AAIB to report. I'm still putting money on a systems failure.
#167
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That will work for about a week....
...after that the chavs will have worked out that all they have to do is unscrew all the blue "here" bulbs and the red "not" bulbs Carnage (planeage??) will ensue
...after that the chavs will have worked out that all they have to do is unscrew all the blue "here" bulbs and the red "not" bulbs Carnage (planeage??) will ensue
#168
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Hey that final approach to LHR is a complete bugger - I almost piled me 737 into the M4!!!!
I kid you not (well.... ish. I was able to fly the British Midland 737 Flight Sim the day before it went live)
I kid you not (well.... ish. I was able to fly the British Midland 737 Flight Sim the day before it went live)
#169
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And Lucas electrics too, apparently.
It's a good job this wasn't a RyanAir flight though. Firstly the passengers wouldn't have known that anything out of the ordinary was going on, even after the plane came to a complete stop since all their landings are as comfortable as this one.
Then they'd try to leave the plane, only to be charged an extra £15 for use of the inflatable slide
It's a good job this wasn't a RyanAir flight though. Firstly the passengers wouldn't have known that anything out of the ordinary was going on, even after the plane came to a complete stop since all their landings are as comfortable as this one.
Then they'd try to leave the plane, only to be charged an extra £15 for use of the inflatable slide
Last edited by Lum; 20 January 2008 at 12:36 AM.
#170
The fact that that the autothrottle and then the pilot asked for more power, without the aircraft responding, is obviously the fault of the Captain.
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And Lucas electrics too, apparently.
It's a good job this wasn't a RyanAir flight though. Firstly the passengers wouldn't have known that anything out of the ordinary was going on, even after the plane came to a complete stop.
Then they'd try to leave the plane, only to be charged an extra £15 for use of the inflatable slide
It's a good job this wasn't a RyanAir flight though. Firstly the passengers wouldn't have known that anything out of the ordinary was going on, even after the plane came to a complete stop.
Then they'd try to leave the plane, only to be charged an extra £15 for use of the inflatable slide
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#173
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It is expected that giant airbags will be inflated under the wreckage of flight BA038 so it can be dragged to the site, where investigators will continue with their examination.
So that means kerry katona on one wing with jordan on the other and charlie dimmock on the undercarraige!
So that means kerry katona on one wing with jordan on the other and charlie dimmock on the undercarraige!
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#176
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#178
Read the thread in chronological order and you'll see my comments are referring to previous posters comments insinuating that the Captain was distancing himself from the FO.
#179
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Not all of these pilots seem to be perfect as some are making out.
BBC News | UK | Who's high in the sky?
Chip
BBC News | UK | Who's high in the sky?
Chip
#180
What are the chances that the plane will fly again ?
I am thinking that its highly unlikely but its a very expensive plane and it, to the casual non expert doesn't look that badly bent, I suppose they would inspect it in minute detail and make a decision then.
I couldn't imagine any uk airline running it but I suspect it would turn up somewhere in Africa yf it did get repaired.
I am thinking it will be used for spares.
I am thinking that its highly unlikely but its a very expensive plane and it, to the casual non expert doesn't look that badly bent, I suppose they would inspect it in minute detail and make a decision then.
I couldn't imagine any uk airline running it but I suspect it would turn up somewhere in Africa yf it did get repaired.
I am thinking it will be used for spares.