iamevilhomer

i'm irish and it's sad to see the way the armed forces in the UK get treated.One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that aside, on a basic level the armed forces of the uk do not get the funding, support, pay, respect, recognition etc that should come from what they are doing.
In an ideal world we would all live in harmony. But we don't, and we should all be thankful, without glorifying, the actions of those that go out to do the job they do.

Brendan Hughes

Why didn't you say that in the first place? Far more important than the poxy "what if" 45-minute scenario you just described

Funding is directly linked to purpose. That's how the discussion developed the way it did.

Leslie

Maintaining our armed forces has to be viewed as necessary insurance since however non warlike we may think ourselves to be, you can never trust other countries not to cause major problems as history demonstrates of course.

I spent all those years in the forces having to "make do" with equipment that was always below par in some way or another for the job and we were expected to do the best we can, as our forces are doing now. The problem is, the lack of suitable equipment is far worse now for the job in hand and our men are expected to risk their lives for wars in another country.

I think for example, it was unforgiveable for Billy Boy to send our forces into Iraq which was said by him to have WMD, with insufficient body armour, tanks which would not work in the sandy conditions, poor clothing and insufficient nuclear and biological warfare protection. Hardly necessary to mention it was an illegal attack.

We are getting so many killed now and also they never mention the dreadful life lasting injuries so many of them are receiving also. They still have not produced the sufficiently well armed vehicles for use in Afghanistan.

It comes to something when all those CDS's lambast the government for their gross lack of real support for our troops. Its all very well Flash telling us all how bravely he has personally been to the "front line" and how he admires what our troops are doing-so easy to say at the Dispatch Box isn't it?

If you want insurance against attack, then it has to be properly supported or we are throwing lives away for nothing and morale will just disappear of course, as in fact is happening now.

I am the first to say that war is obscene and if we are forced to enter one then there has been a great failure on the part of the politicians on one side or the other. I am also a realist however in the requirement for a strong defence of our country.

Nacro,

As a true blue and very unpleasant troll, you demonstrate to us your true character! Nothing to write home about!

Les

Luan Pra bang

Why is it a problem ? Our forces have a load more gear to play with than the enemy we are fighting. It seems strange that a badly equipped enemy with no air support presents such problems. If it was up to me the budget for ground based units would be halved along with the number of men. As long as we have the airforce and some nukes we can fight any real threat to our nation. All this complaining and crying from the army is a joke. You signed up to get shot at don't cry now becuase you life may actually be at risk, its what you signed up for.

Abdabz

I cant remember what they announced recently, Pete me al mucka, but effectively it was around the fact we announced that were to build a new super special "no-one forks with us" nuclear sub or two costing billions (I think)...

rob878

The bit you patently missed is that not the bleating about being shot at, these people are professional and most of the infantry guys i have met through work want to do the job to the best of their abilities and in a professional manner. The bit they moan about is the fact that kit is being robbed from second line to service first line operations. This removes kit from battalions etc who are preparing to go in operations thus denying them the chance to train with the kit before deploying thus leaving them at a disadvantage.

In addition to this after a 6 month tour from the infomation i have you will have on average 2 tours before redeploying (any army wish to correct this info from a RAF techie please feel free). During this time you will live in accomodation that the average eastern European immigrant would refuse.

So before talking utter baws maybe read Hansard and research your subject before wittering crap about the army being upset at being shot at. I think you'll find it is RAF techies like me who complain at being shot at, as if we are being shot at someone somewhere isn't doing their job well enough .

nooobyscooby

[QUOTE=Blue Dragoon;7433007]National Memorial Arboretum. Go there and not be moved to reconsider your tthought on the military and the effort we put into our current ability to lead a free life.

The National Memorial has 16,000 names of men and women who have died on active service in the 60 years since the end of World War II - "the war to end all wars" as it was known - and the builders have left space for another 16,000 names. Sadly, the way things are going, I don't think it will take 60 years to fill it.

nooobyscooby

If you support our forces, you may be interested in supporting this petition:

Petition to: create a new public holiday, the National Remembrance Holiday to commemorate The Fallen and our Nation, with the holiday falling on the second Monday in November each year, the day after Remembrance Sunday.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Personally - I have done 3 tours since June 2004.

Rough estimate is that I've spent 19 months in Iraq/Afghanistan in the last 40 months. So - since June 2004 I've spent, near enough, 50% of my time deployed. And I've been fortunate - I know plenty of people who've been away more than me. I'm not too fussed about that though - I quite enjoy being away even though it does destroy any sort of relationship you might want if your single.

As for my accomodation - the Asylum Detention Centres are better than the (RAF) accomodation that I'm currently staying in.. which we do pay for by the way - contary to popular belief. The Government refuses to provide the money to build new, suitable, accomodation for either singlies, or families - A decision that the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Board has stated as being unacceptable. Oddly enough - the Government/Treasury was happy to ignore them.

Some might find this interesting - There has only been one year, I believe 1969, where a member of the Armed Forces has not been killed on active duty since 1945.

rob878

Being a fast jet w*nk i have only done op telic and before that Op Resinate south, (in ops though had a fair few trips all over the place) I would agree that the accomodation is appalling my camp is not part of the SLAM project due to lack of funds, even though we are ear marked for typhoon.

Money will not be forth coming for married quarters due to the fact that DHE is now a private company. In fact DHE are now in the process of selling off large portions of it's housing and latest rumour is that it is trying to bring in rent in proportion to the areas the bases are located, IE at Benson, Odiham etc you would pay considerably more for your quarter than say Leuchars or Lossiemouth. Can you see a SAC or in the army a private with a family affording the rent for a 3 bed semi (with half the house falling down) in the South, I for one can't.

jaya

i was in the army from 1998 till 2002,i still have mates who are over in afghanistan,most of us joined up from when we left school.the shortage of equipment is nothing new for the british armed forces..even during the first gulf war,british sas were having to borrow equipment from the americans..yea we all signed on the dotted line and we all knew that most likely one day we would risk our lives and be sent out to war..and when you have spent so much time living working training with your mates people around you..you become more like a family and you look out for each other..but the powers that be back in this country are not looking out for our basic needs..my mate came home from duty to find his windows smashed..and when he reported it,he was told we dont have the money to repair them..when the enemy is on your doorstep which i dont think will take long the way things are going in this country..you will be wishing you did something to support our guys and girls in the forces.and not bad mouthing them.those of you that are..for example that other guy who wrote its your own fault for joining up..you make me sick..when one of our guys gets killed,its a great loss to us and we feel it..

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Actually - for all you anti-war types...

Look at it this way - if the Government and the Public had to dig into their pockets and pay a real price for going to War.. maybe it wouldn't happen so much. You should be wanting War to hit the normal person as hard as you can possibly make it. Maybe they wouldn't be so keen on starting them then.

Leslie

If you are so clever and far seeing, why not take a visit the Afghanistan front line and go for a patrol with the troops who have to risk their lives every day in vehicles which are still incapable of withstanding the effects of a roadside bomb.

Your attitude towards the safety of our forces is truly execrable. If you expect them to put their lives on the line they should at least have proper protection.

You are adopting the sensibilities of all those "Colonel Blimps" in the first World War where the troops were treated as "cannon fodder" to be sent over the top just in case they might gain a few useless yards while suffering huge losses to the enemy's concentrated machine gun fire.

You should be ashamed to come up with remarks like those in your post!

Les

Luan Pra bang

How about we accept that the army costs us too much already and try to get politicians to cut spending on it as much as possible. We still have 429000 members of the armed forces which is clearly too many. We have the 2nd most expensive armed forces in the world the world. It is time to let the yanks run things and get over the loss of the empire.

Luan Pra bang

Also if you don't like your job leave.

Leslie

You don't have the first idea about loyalty to your own country and taking pride in defending it. There are still people who actually think of others rather than just themselve you know.

Would you enjoy being ordered about all day by vicious people in jackboots with no personal freedom whatsoever? Have you no sense of gratitude to those brave men who either gave or risked their lives to maintain our independence and our right to run our own country?

It comes to exactly the same in these days and if you just want to throw your hands up and allow the US to police the world you will get a nasty shock eventually.

It is vital that we have the insurance of a strong and respected defence force without having to put up with wimps whining about it.

Les

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

We still have 429000 members of the armed forces which is clearly too many. Luan Pra Bang

Utter bollocks.............180,000 tops mate, so your wrong again. If you are going to spout ****e make it accurate. **** end.

bluenosewrx

iTrader: (2)

0.3% of the Army is Muslim.Approx 400 people

Mac

bluenosewrx

iTrader: (2)

I have been in the Army now for 16yrs and have done 7 operational tours to date, so my opinion should be relevant.
The kit we get is getting better however their is still to many shortages of stuff, i was last on Telic 9 where some things that we never had but should of is laughable.
I dont want to go into it to much as the typical british soldier just "gets on with it"
prob a bad thread to start as you get all the opinionated ars*'s come right out the woodwork.

Mac

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I don't mind opinionated people - but idealistic idiots who seem to be on the happy-happy pills I wasn't expecting so much. If I'd have posted this on Communists-R-Us I would have expected some less than sensible remarks by people with a dubious grip on international affairs.

Also, someone has a cheek infracting Blue Dragoon after the comments made about those of us in uniform by some on this thread. It seems we held back from infracting them for the frankly insulting remarks made towards those of us in uniform - because one of the reasons we do what we do is to ensure people can say what they want - however utterly retarded it might be, and how ungrateful they are of those who went before us.

So - other than the Scoobynet section of the Socialist Workers Party.... if no-one has anything intelligent to say over why defence funding is not a priority of our Government while we are engaged in two wars; I would request a mod locks/deletes this topic before it gets out of hand.

One last thing from me though.. Luan Pra Bang and NARCO - do us a favour and bugger off to the glorious Workers Paradise of North Korea; ,be made to do national service as one of the 1,107,000 regular or 4,700,000 reserve troops, have no access to the outside world, starve to death, or simply get shot if you happen to disagree with the wonderful socially minded leaders of the country - But hey, its all for the benifit of the mindless peasent who doesn't know how they are being manipulated by the ruling classes, so its all Okay!

Please feel free to infract me for this - becasue its far less insulting than anything either of you two have posted.

Luan Pra bang

You have a really ignorant way of expressing yourself

Luan Pra bang

Why do current service people try to take credit for the genuine sacrifices made by real heros during ww1 and ww2. The fact is there are very few British deaths from enemy fire in Iraq. The nation of Iraq was never a threat to the UK and in no way is our current armed forces protecting me from anything.
All these soldiers moaning is a disgrace to the memory of those who suffered real fighting and hardship and would have loved half of the gear , safety equipment and death rates that the modern soldiers enjoys.

Luan Pra bang

You asked for opinions I gave mine don't throw your toys out because you did not like what you heard.
I honestly believe that due to some national insecurity about the loss of the Empire the UK tries to play the big man and pretend to be a super power and hang on USA coat tails. This international messing around has led to Israel Palestine sized disasters and caused more trouble than we ever imagined. We clearly cannot fund the army as is you have stated this yourself so why not trim it to a managable cost and level. If this means leaving Iraq then that is only a good thing.

CrisPDuk

I have always believed that our armed forces should be better funded and supported than they currently are (or ever have been in my 37 year lifetime)

I also firmly believe that that funding would be very easy to come by if we would only stop funding the lifestyles of layabouts, junkies, pikeys and chavs

Coincidentally that same social group would be an ideal recruiting ground (forcibly if necessary) for any cannon fodder that may be required, thus preserving the lives of those dedicated professional soldiers we have just invested our improved funding in training



At least she had the decency to write personally to the families of every member of the armed forces who was killed in that conflict (and also, I believe, those killed in Northern Ireland). I doubt very much that either Billy or Flash have extended the same courtesy to the families of those lost in Iraq and Afghanistan

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Luan Pra Bang.

The only teddy I was throwing was in response to your utterly stupid idealistic little view of our wonderful world, and the total lack of understanding you have of the oath members of the Armed Forces take.

WE do NOT pick the wars we get sent to fight. We do not have the personal freedom to choose which wars we will and will not fight. You don't like the war in Iraq? Fine, you don't like it. Frankly, thats not my ****ing problem. I don't have to agree or disagree with the reasons for a war - I simply have to totter along to random countries that the Goverment, that was democratically elected by the British Public, decides will be in the UK National Interest. Be that **** Germany or Saddams Iraq.

We took the Oath, and regardless how much we might complain we will ALWAYS go where we're told to go. We do NOT Strike, will will NEVER strike, Unlike some other supposed public servants who have been infected by the Unions.

Your issues with the military are simply the result of usual socalist, hypocritical, nonsense; because you hate people who DO give up their freedoms for the benefit of society. Rather than line their own pockets while manipulating the writings of Marx.

If/When we are faced with another threat such as **** Germany; will you expect us to fight it? If so, put your hand in your pocket and pay up.

Luan Pra bang

I have no idealistic view of the world but what I do know is that our army is double the size it needs to be to protect the UK from outside threats. There is no danger currently of an invasion from '**** germany' or anything similar but its good to see that you are still invoking memories of the great war to gather sympathy. We do not need a huge army to protect ourselves when we have an airforce the Navy and a **** load of nukes. The army we maintain is used for Political wars not national defence.
If you were sensible you would realize that an army cut in numbers by 70% would at least mean the troops left there were looked after properly.

Leslie

I imagine that you have never been in the armed forces and have no idea of the real experiences of those out in Iraq, fighting an illegal war for the politicians' glorification in a foreign country with insufficient equipment for their own protection. They are either susceptible to large bombs buried in the road in vehicles which are not hardened sufficiently or a steady rain of RPG's into their barracks.

Added to that we have the men out in Afghanistan in the most dangerous part of the country trying to suppress the Taliban which was too difficult for the whole of the Soviet army to achieve. Their so called Eu allies are forbidden by their governments to enter into any kind of dangerous activity. This is accepted by our spineless politicians.

Unless you have particular experience and really know what you are talking about, I think you would do a lot better to wind your neck in and extract your head from what must be an unpleasant place.

We all have a perfect right to remember what was done for us by those who took part in World Wars one and two. Just look at what happens on Remembrance Day to see how we revere their memory. Perhap's you would have cut those armed services down to less than half their size before those wars! Where would we be now after you had your way? How dare you accuse modern Servicemen of attempting to take credit for what those brave people did!

You attitude is heavily flawed and you would do well to re-think your foolish ideas.

Let me just enlighten you about more modern forces. If we had to go to war with the Eastern Bloc during the cold war. we would have been sent off in the dark or rain at very low level to escape the SAMS. in order to deliver a bucket of sunshine. We all knew it was a one way trip, no fuel to get back but there would have been nowhere to land back anyway! That was the requirement for the deterrent and no one would have held back from the job. The other side knew that and so the deterrent worked! This sort of thing applied across all the Services. All those sacrifices would have been made.

So you should be more careful before you start running the modern armed services down! Your selfish ideas also of letting someone else take responsiblity for our defence are particularly selfish and also short sighted.

Les

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

And utterly incapable of achieving any meaningful Military objective at all.

Winning battles and wars is all about holding ground. Holding ground is only achieved by having infantry sit on it and control it, denying its use to the enemy. This has been true since the dawn of mankind, and is ALWAYS going to be true. We actually have a very small army compared to many countries in the world; your argument that a cut in numbers by 70% would result in improved conditions is dubious as well - it would be simply an excuse to cut Defence funding even more, as you well know.

The comparision to **** Germany is totally valid, and not fishing for sympathy at all. The Great War, was after all, the war to end all wars. The Empires standing army was decimated by cuts and under-investment during the 1920's and 1930's, due to there not being any perceived threat. This resulted in the horrific performance of the BEF in France - was not through any fault of the Soldiers; but the criminal negligence of the politicians, and apathy of the public at the time to the requirement to adequately fund the military, which resulted in them facing the technological might of the German warmachine, armed with outdated and obsolete equipment.

It hardly takes a PhD in History to see the comparison. The fact that most of this was over-seen by a Labour Government I'll put down to coincidence

RB5_245

Luan Pra bangs comments are clearly not childish and foolish. Personal insults because you don't agree with someones opinion is not helping anything but reducing the validity of your own point.

rob878

That would require not a change in military stance but a massive sea change in governmental policy.

Simply by removing the requirement for reserve on leaving the armed forces, would reduce man power by 45%, though as this is an unpaid reserve it wouldn't hit any budgets. Though i bet no service person would argue against abolishing this requirement .

Rather than cutting army numbers by 70% i would much prefer a 70% reduction in operations, this would allow the forces to be better looked after and provided for.

In addition a much needed revamp of the upper echelons of the MOD and get someone who can at least write a contract, to be employed to stop us getting b*m raped by the likes of BAE. The fruits of the combined ineptitude of BAE and Policy makers in the MOD seen in the recent death of a Civvy nav when he took an unscheduled trip through the canopy of his tornado.