Martin2005

So why is the murder rate higher in countries with the death penalty then?

It does not work and has never has done so.

For most people the DP is about revenge, this is not a motive that the state should have any part of.

People who commit these dreadful crimes should be locked up for good

PeteBrant

If you assume "life" means 25 years. - Which it doesn't. It usually means around 15 years, if that. Hence death row is more expensive.

For all offenders? Are you suggesting the death penalty for all crimes? In which case the comparison is entirely redundant. Or just those that warrant life imprisoment? - In those terms, the re-offending rates are far, far lower.

PeteBrant

Since we scrapped the death penalty, the number of muders per thousand people have gone up from 5 to 9. A high percentage increase of course, but in real terms, absolutely bugger all - Especially considering the population increase.


End result? The death penalty deters nothing.

David Lock

Reminds me of that old Peter Cook sketch. Cook was playing the crusty old judge and was sending out the jury to deliberate.

He said something like "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury. You have heard the evidence blah blah. Now it is your duty to carefully consider all these things before finding the defendant guilty"

Reality

So the rates of murder per 1000 of population have nearly doubled since scrapping the death penalty and the death penalty deters nothing.

If it's a rate per 1000 what's Population increase got to do with anything ?

You'll need to find some more convoincing stats for me

PeteBrant

Actually those numbers are wrong - I thought they seemed high. It's actually per million not per thousand. It was actually as high as 12 per million in the late 80's (actually blamed on the recession)

So you can call it doubling if you like - But the reality is that an infintessmally small number has gotten slightly less infintesimally small.

The chance of you being murdered has gone from 0.001% to 0.002%

I think you'll find its you that needs ot do the convincing The status quo is no death penalty

Population increase would have an impact, you would imagine.

Brendan Hughes

In line with the surprising article I read once, by an Oxford criminology professor, that crime rates generally RISE under the supposedly law and order Tory governments, contrary to what people think. That was done in 97, so no comment on NL.

andythejock01wrx

Reality

Why - because it's true

PeteBrant

Of course it is - But it politician speak.

I can say that my chances of winning the lottery have doubled because I buy two tickets, but there is still **** all chance of winning the jackpot.


Its just saying it in a certain way to make it sound more than it is.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Serial Rapists - cut their ****s off.

Serial Killers - Hang them.

I think the death penalty for a single killing isn't right for a whole raft of reasons; but when your talking about people such Fred West; or Hindely.

Your correct, the death penalty deters nothing - but then, given re-offending figures, neither does prison.

I don't consider the death penalty as punishment; I consider it as a cost-effective way of removing the significant threat of a un-curable psychopath from Society.

Reality

Hey - it's your stats - not mine.

I reckon when you kill your first person you get prison.

When you kill your second person you get hanged.

In terms of total murders - that's an increase from 1 to 2.

Or double if you prefer

Leslie

I reckon that if I was about to murder someone, the death penaly would certainly make me think again!

Les

Brendan Hughes

Yes, but the usual answer against is that if you were about to rape someone, the death penalty would also make you think that you might as well murder them afterwards so there is no witness. And criminals have said this in interviews.

Reality

nobody's saying they want the death penalty for suprise sex though !

double or more murderers would do me !

Martin2005

The death penalty is IMMORAL, and those in favour should question their own humanity!

Reality

**** humanity - I want double killers to pay the ultimate price - not spend 10 years taking the **** out of the system and get out to commit another murder.

If that makes me immoral you can stick morals up yer ****

Martin2005

Id like to see the death penalty introduced for people that post thoughtless and hopelessly inaccurate rants

Reality

You Immoral poster

22BUK

I was working in Milan about ten years ago and came into the office one morning to discover everyone clustered together happily eating cake and drinking coffee. Thought it was someone's birthday.

It turned out that a couple of suspected paedophiles had been released on bail in Naples and thirty minutes later they had both been murdered. The Police investigated for an hour or so and then closed the case.

Justice? The people in the office seemed to think so!

Reality

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...6/nreid126.xml

Martin2005

Well to start with I don't think the article says anything about 'double murders serving 10 years then killing again' but yes I agree it's a scandal.
But this is a fault of the criminal justice system and nothing to do with the death penalty. I want to see these criminals locked up for at least 30 years.
But state sanctioned murder IS immoral, and it just doesn't work as a deterent.

Nido

There was an interesting documentary a few years back where they interviewd the families of serial killers victims, and pretty much every single one of them said they'd like to see the killer face the death penalty, as it would be the only way they see proper justice being done.

They had had their son / daughter / wife / husband / mother etc taken away from them for life, and yet the killer would be a free person again in 15 odd years.

I guess their humanity doesn't come into the equation Martin?

Reality

That's because they give these scum a nice painless death.

Kill the murderers by putting them in a mincer !!

Martin2005

Of course it does, but how does killing the killer help, you can't have the criminal justice system handed over to the victims of crime, where would that lead us.... death penalty for everything (judging by what I've read on here)

My basic beliefs are that killing is wrong, therefore how could I support the state doing it?

Lock them up, it's really that simple.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Only if you consider it to be state-sanctioned murder.

In my mind, it is simply the result of an individuals actions. Murder is immoral because an innocent person is killed due to no fault of their own. Killers hanging from a noose, are in that situation because of a direct consequence of their own actions. They are the ones responsible for their actions, and the consequences that arise from those actions. If one of those consequences is the death penalty, then, in effect, they have committed suicide.

Of course, we live in a society today where people are not expected to take reasponsibilty for the actions they make - where they will blame their behaviour on their upbringing, the community they live in, or some other utterly pitiful excuse for their bad behaviour.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

With Pete on this one.

Gut instinct says that scum like this don't deserve to be on the streets and it would be much less expensive to just do away with them!

BUT

When looked at in terms of the objectives of punishment, the death penalty only really works on an "eye for an eye basis". Fine, revenge can be a valid, if dangerous motive.

The main problems I have with it are threefold. First, punishment is caried out on behalf of society, i.e. you and I. I don't want anyone killed on my behalf, not even this scum. Reason? I question the moral imperative of any justice system that condemns murder, but then sanctions it as a punishment.

Secondly, I think a life in prison is probably a more severe punishment. If it is currently an easy option, that should be changed, but that's not an excuse to bring in the death penalty - make doing time mean something again!

Thirdly, if the wrong person is convicted, there is nothing that can done once the sentence is executed. In this age of forensics, mistakes are rare, but they still happen and forensics are just a tool used by humans who are notoriously fallable and subject to corruption etc..

A wise man once said that if you wanted to examine the state of a society, look at the way it treats its outcasts!

The death penalty, though satisfying on a visceral level, would be a big step back for UK society.

Ns04

Martin2005

Well siad that man!

And as Ghandi once said 'an eye foir an eye, will make the world go blind'

What I really object to is the notion that just because I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty, I'm somehow on the side of the criminal

Dracoro

I think the argument would disappear if life imprisonment really did mean life imprisonment, not a pathetic 15 years or whatever.

Brendan Hughes

It wouldn't. Plenty of states in the US have the death penalty for murder, I don't think their homicide stats are anything to envy.