Should you remap a car on the road or on the rolling road?
20 November 2006, 11:13 AM
#181
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There is no point in having any kind of road versus RR test.
The skill of any of the ppl on here is not an issue, they are merely passing discussion and opinions on which way they map the cars thats all.
There are bound to be examples for any kinda mapping which belittles the other methods.
But although i know nothing of the RR mentioned on here, the reputations of ALL the mappers on here is legendary as far as i am concerned.
And to add my RR experience, i had my WRX on a RR at a time when for some reason 3rd gear was the way they did it and i had this at G-Force. I was already told then by Mr Bulmar that you cannot run a car on a RR in 3rd. But i cannot remember the reasons why.
Why is this? Reasons on a post card to................
I would not negate the use of a RR though and i cant say i would not have my car mapped on one either as i have no reason to say that.
In fact i would love the comparison tbh.
I have just had my car modified again and actually want to get on a RR so i can see what i have actually paid for. It wasnt a cheap job, by my choice, for what bits i bought and the only way i can get to see what output i have is to get it on a RR.
Ok on the road it feels fine, i have to say i expected more, but then again i had some stupid feeling it would feel way more powerful than it does. lol.
But i have to say i would love to get my car mapped both ways and see which DRIVES better.
There is too much obsession with figures, (me included), and at the end of the day it is how the car drives that counts.
But i still need to know how much bhp/torque my car has! LOL.
The skill of any of the ppl on here is not an issue, they are merely passing discussion and opinions on which way they map the cars thats all.
There are bound to be examples for any kinda mapping which belittles the other methods.
But although i know nothing of the RR mentioned on here, the reputations of ALL the mappers on here is legendary as far as i am concerned.
And to add my RR experience, i had my WRX on a RR at a time when for some reason 3rd gear was the way they did it and i had this at G-Force. I was already told then by Mr Bulmar that you cannot run a car on a RR in 3rd. But i cannot remember the reasons why.
Why is this? Reasons on a post card to................
I would not negate the use of a RR though and i cant say i would not have my car mapped on one either as i have no reason to say that.
In fact i would love the comparison tbh.
I have just had my car modified again and actually want to get on a RR so i can see what i have actually paid for. It wasnt a cheap job, by my choice, for what bits i bought and the only way i can get to see what output i have is to get it on a RR.
Ok on the road it feels fine, i have to say i expected more, but then again i had some stupid feeling it would feel way more powerful than it does. lol.
But i have to say i would love to get my car mapped both ways and see which DRIVES better.
There is too much obsession with figures, (me included), and at the end of the day it is how the car drives that counts.
But i still need to know how much bhp/torque my car has! LOL.
20 November 2006, 11:13 AM
#182
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Originally Posted by lunar tick
Good idea and I think I suggested something similar to this earlier in the thread. It was put to me however that this kind of test would reveal more about the mappers than the tools they used (ie a test comparing 2 different road mappers or 2 different dyno mappers might produce a greater difference in results than one that compares a road mapper and a dyno mapper).
However not withstanding that, I definitely think it has lot of merit and could certainly lay to rest some of the arguments on here one way or another .
Maybe the ultimate solution is to get two or three road mappers to out their heads together and jointly produce the very best map they can for a car and measure in-gear acceleration times then hand it over to a team of dyno mappers to see whether they can better it using a dyno. This would help eliminate the inter-individual variability element between mappers.
However not withstanding that, I definitely think it has lot of merit and could certainly lay to rest some of the arguments on here one way or another .
Maybe the ultimate solution is to get two or three road mappers to out their heads together and jointly produce the very best map they can for a car and measure in-gear acceleration times then hand it over to a team of dyno mappers to see whether they can better it using a dyno. This would help eliminate the inter-individual variability element between mappers.
The maps that tuners on here have produced have taken into account reliability and longevity and reflect an in-depth knowledge of Scooby internals! The problem for me -as a consumer- with RR is that I have been exposed to material that has gone to some lengths to explain how a RR and road-testing are different and the implications of these differences for mapping. I've yet to see similarly convincing rebuttals from the RR community. What I do see is reference to figures measured on a RR as proof that they work, but given it is the validity of using RR figures as an indicator of real world performance that is being questioned, using such figures as evidence that they work is dubious. The way the car drives and performs in the real world is more important and is what I'd like to see more of!
People seem to want to polarise this debate, so let me just reiterate
- I don't for one minute think that RR don't have a use
- Nor do I think that people would spend a lot of money on one without good reason
- I know many people who have an RR based map and are very happy with it
I also think that to some extent that the 'division' between proponents of the two methods is somewhat artifical as it seems that many road mappers openly point to RRs having their uses and, conversely, RR mappers generally advocate on-road testing.
My position remains that it's performance on the road that counts for most consumers- this is where the car lives and is enjoyed however the car is mapped. BUT I would be suspicious of anyone who didn't advocate road testing, which I don't think anyone on here is doing in any case.
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 20 November 2006 at 11:17 AM.
20 November 2006, 11:39 AM
#183
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lunar tick
This is what i was saying above.
dynamix
This is what the mappers have been saying,hence the advocation of different methods in mapping.
Alan
You run the dyno at night??
MaDaSS
With a 7 page debate on why's and wherefore's, i think there is.
You the go on to say
along with
and
and..
So clearly there's an element of doubt in your mind with regard to your result, hence it would be a good idea (if possible, but doubtful) to have a test car to allow a fair comparison. The mappers won't be interested in my opinion due to being too busy, no need, can't spare the time... and so on. 
Ns04
I feel the same way, yet there's been mention of road mapped cars showing improvement after being dyno/road mapped, so why not do a real world test?
Maybe the ultimate solution is to get two or three road mappers to out their heads together and jointly produce the very best map they can for a car and measure in-gear acceleration times then hand it over to a team of dyno mappers to see whether they can better it using a dyno.
dynamix
choice of mapper is the key and getting ones that understands your needs and the cars requirements with a view to what useage to the car will be put through.
Alan
Maddog-- Funnily enough, the reason I haven't been sleeping is due to the neighbours dog barking all night! We found a way to fix that
MaDaSS
There is no point in having any kind of road versus RR test.
You the go on to say
In fact i would love the comparison tbh.
Ok on the road it feels fine, i have to say i expected more, but then again i had some stupid feeling it would feel way more powerful than it does.
But i have to say i would love to get my car mapped both ways and see which DRIVES better.
But i still need to know how much bhp/torque my car has!
Ns04
My position remains that it's performance on the road that counts for most consumers- this is where the car lives and is enjoyed however the car is mapped.
Last edited by Maddog; 20 November 2006 at 11:41 AM.
20 November 2006, 12:11 PM
#184
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The above have pretty much hit the nail on the head.
It just goes to show that intelligent debate will arrive at the right conclusion!
It just goes to show that intelligent debate will arrive at the right conclusion!
20 November 2006, 02:48 PM
#185
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I agree with you Alan 
New_scooby_04 sums it up very well below in my opinion.
Ok Alan you can have the last word below
New_scooby_04 sums it up very well below in my opinion.
Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
Problem is, even if it were possible to equate for mapper skill, you stil have the issue of longevity to consider; I'm pretty sure that I could make a car go fast from 0-60.................. once! Then it'd blow up! The maps that tuners on here have produced have taken into account reliability and longevity and reflect an in-depth knowledge of Scooby internals!
The problem for me -as a consumer- with RR is that I have been exposed to material that has gone to some lengths to explain how a RR and road-testing are different and the implications of these differences for mapping. I've yet to see similarly convincing rebuttals from the RR community. What I do see is reference to figures measured on a RR as proof that they work, but given it is the validity of using RR figures as an indicator of real world performance that is being questioned, using such figures as evidence that they work is dubious. The way the car drives and performs in the real world is more important and is what I'd like to see more of!
People seem to want to polarise this debate, so let me just reiterate
- I don't for one minute think that RR don't have a use
- Nor do I think that people would spend a lot of money on one without good reason
- I know many people who have an RR based map and are very happy with it
I also think that to some extent that the 'division' between proponents of the two methods is somewhat artifical as it seems that many road mappers openly point to RRs having their uses and, conversely, RR mappers generally advocate on-road testing.
My position remains that it's performance on the road that counts for most consumers- this is where the car lives and is enjoyed however the car is mapped. BUT I would be suspicious of anyone who didn't advocate road testing, which I don't think anyone on here is doing in any case.
Ns04
The maps that tuners on here have produced have taken into account reliability and longevity and reflect an in-depth knowledge of Scooby internals! The problem for me -as a consumer- with RR is that I have been exposed to material that has gone to some lengths to explain how a RR and road-testing are different and the implications of these differences for mapping. I've yet to see similarly convincing rebuttals from the RR community. What I do see is reference to figures measured on a RR as proof that they work, but given it is the validity of using RR figures as an indicator of real world performance that is being questioned, using such figures as evidence that they work is dubious. The way the car drives and performs in the real world is more important and is what I'd like to see more of!
People seem to want to polarise this debate, so let me just reiterate
- I don't for one minute think that RR don't have a use
- Nor do I think that people would spend a lot of money on one without good reason
- I know many people who have an RR based map and are very happy with it
I also think that to some extent that the 'division' between proponents of the two methods is somewhat artifical as it seems that many road mappers openly point to RRs having their uses and, conversely, RR mappers generally advocate on-road testing.
My position remains that it's performance on the road that counts for most consumers- this is where the car lives and is enjoyed however the car is mapped. BUT I would be suspicious of anyone who didn't advocate road testing, which I don't think anyone on here is doing in any case.
Ns04
Ok Alan you can have the last word below
Last edited by Andy.F; 20 November 2006 at 04:53 PM.
20 November 2006, 04:13 PM
#187
it has gone very quiet - therefore we must have come to a conclusion
Alan - you know as well as anyone else, there will never be a last word on this.... but it has been a great informative thread with some real heavyweight knowledge. Definitely one to bookmark as a highlight of good SN posts.
Alan - you know as well as anyone else, there will never be a last word on this.... but it has been a great informative thread with some real heavyweight knowledge. Definitely one to bookmark as a highlight of good SN posts.
20 November 2006, 04:59 PM
#188
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
I agree with you Alan
New_scooby_04 sums it up very well below in my opinion.
Ok Alan you can have the last word below
New_scooby_04 sums it up very well below in my opinion.
Ok Alan you can have the last word below
Now all I need to do is convince Eva Green to sleep with me and replace Arnie as the Terminator in T4 and my life is complete
Ns04
20 November 2006, 05:28 PM
#189
Originally Posted by Maddog
I feel the same way, yet there's been mention of road mapped cars showing improvement after being dyno/road mapped, so why not do a real world test?
I'm going to have some RR diagnostics carried out; if there are to be subsequent alterations made to the map, I will carry out and log before/after in-gear acceleration times for the sake of comparison (I think we all agree that quoting bhp figures is fraught with potential difficulties
). I will also report (and ask others to do so) on before and after driveability....
20 November 2006, 11:48 PM
#190
For those reading, please base your judgement on the technical examples given, treat with caution the dyno numbers spouted unless of course you can be sure they are totally unbiased and 100% accurate
Andy
Andy
Andy :
Quote:
I do wonder if any one of them ever got anywhere near the same reading on 2 different rollers
Funnily enough, an owner asked me to drive his car last week. You had mapped it and he says he was told it would have 340 or 350 bhp. I think he said 350 bhp. By some means he ended up at a Rolling Road Day in Plymouth and produced 317 bhp and 319 bhp from memory. Not happy with the result, he then went on the rollers at Steve simpson Motorsport and got 322 bhp and 323 bhp. Relatively close and a long way from 340 bhp
Quote:
I do wonder if any one of them ever got anywhere near the same reading on 2 different rollers
Funnily enough, an owner asked me to drive his car last week. You had mapped it and he says he was told it would have 340 or 350 bhp. I think he said 350 bhp. By some means he ended up at a Rolling Road Day in Plymouth and produced 317 bhp and 319 bhp from memory. Not happy with the result, he then went on the rollers at Steve simpson Motorsport and got 322 bhp and 323 bhp. Relatively close and a long way from 340 bhp
If two Dyno Dynamic rolling roads at opposite ends of the country get 320 bhp plus or minus 2 or 3 bhp and you get 340 or 350 bhp then some people might think your figures are questionable. Not all, just some.
21 November 2006, 12:49 AM
#191
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Harvey
My figures are only ever given as an approximation, how can anyone possibly do anything other than that ! This is explained on my website which has been saying this for over 2 yrs now.
How else would you explain Rich Wilds old car which regularly ran 370/380bhp at Well Lane then made only 320bhp at Steves ? Or Ninnybobs which lost 40 bhp when run at the same place ? Or the Prodrive car that got 310bhp on the first run and over 325bhp on the last one, all without changing anything on the car!
The list is endless.
These claims of yours were checked out with Stuart at TEG today and found to be false. He confirmed that I have never contacted TEG sport and that I had never made any such £200 offer. Ask him yourself !
Anyone reading this for that matter, that has any doubt as to who is telling the truth here, phone Stuart the owner of TEG and ask for the true story.
If you have a problem with me harvey please say so and stop just taking these cheap shots.
Andy
My figures are only ever given as an approximation, how can anyone possibly do anything other than that ! This is explained on my website which has been saying this for over 2 yrs now.
How else would you explain Rich Wilds old car which regularly ran 370/380bhp at Well Lane then made only 320bhp at Steves ? Or Ninnybobs which lost 40 bhp when run at the same place ? Or the Prodrive car that got 310bhp on the first run and over 325bhp on the last one, all without changing anything on the car!
The list is endless.
Originally Posted by harvey
Andy : You have used several rolling roads for tuning. Did you not ask TEG Sport about the use of their rollers.
Originally Posted by steve rally
.Subsequent requests to hire the rollers were made.No way Stuart at TEG would forget the chance to make £200!!!
Steve
Steve
Originally Posted by harvey
you contacted Teg Sport and offered £200 per day for the use of their rollers. Do you remember now?
Anyone reading this for that matter, that has any doubt as to who is telling the truth here, phone Stuart the owner of TEG and ask for the true story.
If you have a problem with me harvey please say so and stop just taking these cheap shots.
Andy
21 November 2006, 03:00 AM
#192
As I was not present at any of these events, as far as I know and as there are competant rolling road operators as well as incompetants along with repeatable rolling roads and non repeatable, then I cannot comment on your claims.
I am simply stating what I know to be the case from direct involvement.
I am not taking cheap shots. I don't agree with some of what you are saying and I do intend to sort it out.
Just for the record, what do you want to say about RB5289.
I am simply stating what I know to be the case from direct involvement.
If you have a problem with me harvey please say so and stop just taking these cheap shots
Just for the record, what do you want to say about RB5289.
21 November 2006, 07:12 AM
#193
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Road tuning makes perfect sense IMHO. Even with changes in temperature & pressure, you still have more correct/accurate variables in the "system" than on a rolling road. The only benefit to a RR is seeing the torque measurements and how the engine responds to changes, plus it's probably fun to tinker all day with your motor on a very expensive machine.
I am curious about road tuning methodologies and determining power without the DD roaddyno - is it as simple as maximizing acceleration rates, fueling & MBT simultaneously?
I am curious about road tuning methodologies and determining power without the DD roaddyno - is it as simple as maximizing acceleration rates, fueling & MBT simultaneously?
Last edited by dmross; 21 November 2006 at 07:14 AM.
21 November 2006, 10:27 AM
#194
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Originally Posted by harvey
As I was not present at any of these events, as far as I know and as there are competant rolling road operators as well as incompetants along with repeatable rolling roads and non repeatable, then I cannot comment on your claims.
I am simply stating what I know to be the case from direct involvement.
I am simply stating what I know to be the case from direct involvement.
Not only were you most certainly present Harvey, you actually organised the rolling road day and your best mate Steve Simpson was the one operating his own rollers !
Originally Posted by harvey
This is the first rolling road day I have organised and it all went smoothly with everyone helping each other. Steve Simpson did not stop all day other than a 20 minute break and we are indebted to him and his helpers.
1. Martin Ninnybobs 357.6 bhp 340 ft.lbs 01 WRX Detting since last service. Nice flat torque curve.
>>>Regularly makes 400+ at Well Lane which you have previously stated is an accurate rolling road.
2. Alan Smith 303 bhp 280 ft.lbs 02 WRX Very safe map, fuel is good, down on torque and there is probably a bit more to come from ignition advance in the map.
>>>Nothing to do with timing, the AVCS was inactivated and dropping torque but this was not detected on the rollers, runs 340bhp at Prosport.
3. Killa / Ali 249.7 bhp 255 ft.lbs 02 WRX Check engine light on permanently VERY VERY rich 10.5:1. Odd boost curve. Needs an Ecutek remap, Apexi Power FC or whatever.
>>> 10.5:1 is only 'factory rich' (Apexi Power FC is not available for 02WRX)
4. Chris Towers 249.3 bhp 253 ft.lbs 99 UK 2000 VERY VERY rich 10.0:1. Should be 11.3/11.4 . Probably suffering bore wash. Will benefit from remap and has definate 280 bhp potential.
>>> Std PPP car and subsequently AFR was checked out on the road and found to running as prodrive intended.
15. Steve Carr 318 bhp 308 ft.lbs 97 UK turbo running 1.55 bar. Rich mid range but OK at the top. Fit motor.
>>> Not rich on the road.
17. Kevin Connaughton 311 bhp 280 ft.lbs WRX (Formerly Rich Wild's) Running 1.4 bar. Detting at the top which needs serious investigation. AFR seems OK.
>>> Investigated same day, running very well, as it has been for the last 2 years. Regularly produces 360-380 at Well Lane
21. Paul Stabler 236 bhp 225 ft.lbs 94 WRX. Near standard with 6 speed box. .82 bar of boost AFR dropped off the scale, too rich but still on standard ECU. This car feels far faster on the road than the figures indicate.
>>> It has been known
23. Graeme Robertson 360 bhp 315 ft.lbs 95 WRX (ex Jonny Gav) running 1.5 bar. Could be weaker at the top end although fuelling is generally fine. Flames from front pipes / headers !!!!!
>>> It couldn't be weaker and maintain the same safety level.
24. Harvey Smith 375 bhp 350 ft.lbs 95 WRX Wagon running 1.5 bar max. Slightly rich. (6 weeks ago on the same rollers this car did 384.6 bhp/355 ft.lbs and todays target was 390/355.) Will add 20 bhp in a couple of weeks
>>> Interesting, lost 10 bhp for no apparent reason.
25. Mark Shield 343 bhp 352 ft.lbs 94 WRX Twin scroll turbo. 1.6 bar reducing to 1.2 bar, fuel = 11.5 :1 Good power for boost figure (Mark's comment, "not as much as I have had on these rollers before")
>>> Sounds par for the course.
I have provisionally arranged 8th April for the next rolling road day at TEG Sport and will post details in a fortnights time.
Regards,
Harvey.
1. Martin Ninnybobs 357.6 bhp 340 ft.lbs 01 WRX Detting since last service. Nice flat torque curve.
>>>Regularly makes 400+ at Well Lane which you have previously stated is an accurate rolling road.
2. Alan Smith 303 bhp 280 ft.lbs 02 WRX Very safe map, fuel is good, down on torque and there is probably a bit more to come from ignition advance in the map.
>>>Nothing to do with timing, the AVCS was inactivated and dropping torque but this was not detected on the rollers, runs 340bhp at Prosport.
3. Killa / Ali 249.7 bhp 255 ft.lbs 02 WRX Check engine light on permanently VERY VERY rich 10.5:1. Odd boost curve. Needs an Ecutek remap, Apexi Power FC or whatever.
>>> 10.5:1 is only 'factory rich' (Apexi Power FC is not available for 02WRX)
4. Chris Towers 249.3 bhp 253 ft.lbs 99 UK 2000 VERY VERY rich 10.0:1. Should be 11.3/11.4 . Probably suffering bore wash. Will benefit from remap and has definate 280 bhp potential.
>>> Std PPP car and subsequently AFR was checked out on the road and found to running as prodrive intended.
15. Steve Carr 318 bhp 308 ft.lbs 97 UK turbo running 1.55 bar. Rich mid range but OK at the top. Fit motor.
>>> Not rich on the road.
17. Kevin Connaughton 311 bhp 280 ft.lbs WRX (Formerly Rich Wild's) Running 1.4 bar. Detting at the top which needs serious investigation. AFR seems OK.
>>> Investigated same day, running very well, as it has been for the last 2 years. Regularly produces 360-380 at Well Lane
21. Paul Stabler 236 bhp 225 ft.lbs 94 WRX. Near standard with 6 speed box. .82 bar of boost AFR dropped off the scale, too rich but still on standard ECU. This car feels far faster on the road than the figures indicate.
>>> It has been known
23. Graeme Robertson 360 bhp 315 ft.lbs 95 WRX (ex Jonny Gav) running 1.5 bar. Could be weaker at the top end although fuelling is generally fine. Flames from front pipes / headers !!!!!
>>> It couldn't be weaker and maintain the same safety level.
24. Harvey Smith 375 bhp 350 ft.lbs 95 WRX Wagon running 1.5 bar max. Slightly rich. (6 weeks ago on the same rollers this car did 384.6 bhp/355 ft.lbs and todays target was 390/355.) Will add 20 bhp in a couple of weeks
>>> Interesting, lost 10 bhp for no apparent reason.
25. Mark Shield 343 bhp 352 ft.lbs 94 WRX Twin scroll turbo. 1.6 bar reducing to 1.2 bar, fuel = 11.5 :1 Good power for boost figure (Mark's comment, "not as much as I have had on these rollers before")
>>> Sounds par for the course.
I have provisionally arranged 8th April for the next rolling road day at TEG Sport and will post details in a fortnights time.
Regards,
Harvey.
Full thread is here https://www.scoobynet.com/northern-2...january-7.html
You were also here when Martyn made 400+
Originally Posted by chrisT.O.T.B.
many thanks to everyone who attended, turned into a good meet!
200+ Club Rolling road shootout 10th Sept 2006
Well Lane Turbo Centre
(all figures @ flywheel)
Martyn Metcalfe Impreza WRX MY01
APS fmic, TD05 turbo, 565cc injectors, RCMS induction kit
402bhp 330ft/lb
Harvey Smith Impreza STi 3 Wagon
Std ecu, std fmic, std injectors, 3” Revolution exhaust, Harvey ported heads and headers, dog-in-boot conversion!
335bhp 338ft/lb
200+ Club Rolling road shootout 10th Sept 2006
Well Lane Turbo Centre
(all figures @ flywheel)
Martyn Metcalfe Impreza WRX MY01
APS fmic, TD05 turbo, 565cc injectors, RCMS induction kit
402bhp 330ft/lb
Harvey Smith Impreza STi 3 Wagon
Std ecu, std fmic, std injectors, 3” Revolution exhaust, Harvey ported heads and headers, dog-in-boot conversion!
335bhp 338ft/lb
April TEG
Originally Posted by harvey
RESULTS :
6) Alan Smith MY02 STi 8 UK .................................Anticipated 330 bhp and 320 ft.lbs
APS CAK
Andy F. Tek 3
Blitz nurspec exhaust
Option 2) ported headers and uppipe.......................Actual 316.4 bhp 312 ft.lbs.
This car recently produced 340 bhp on Prosport rollers.
6) Alan Smith MY02 STi 8 UK .................................Anticipated 330 bhp and 320 ft.lbs
APS CAK
Andy F. Tek 3
Blitz nurspec exhaust
Option 2) ported headers and uppipe.......................Actual 316.4 bhp 312 ft.lbs.
This car recently produced 340 bhp on Prosport rollers.
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 21 November 2006 at 10:42 AM.
21 November 2006, 12:31 PM
#195
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I don't agree with some of what you are saying and I do intend to sort it out.
What exactly is it you're trying to sort out?Regards the £200 TEG, Stuart thing, was there not something posted about Stuart (TEG)and Steve(Simpson) having a fallout or something like that? (..was it the Sigma ecu threads?)and so maybe that's why Stuart doesn't know anything about the so called conversations Harveys on about? (not a flame war but they are both separate companies are they not? even though they're in the same premises).
All i think is that i don't like the way this is going and i think you have to sit back and take stock for a moment and wonder what we're doing? It's a hobby for crying out loud.
Last edited by Maddog; 21 November 2006 at 12:35 PM.
21 November 2006, 12:40 PM
#196
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I don't like the way it is going either but I can't sit and let someone suggest I'm lying, hence the above info.
I was quite happy to let Alan have the last word on the technical discussion
Andy
I was quite happy to let Alan have the last word on the technical discussion
Andy
21 November 2006, 12:43 PM
#197
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Originally Posted by Maddog
All i think is that i don't like the way this is going and i think you have to sit back and take stock for a moment and wonder what we're doing? It's a hobby for crying out loud.
Unfortunately Maddog it's only a hobby for mere bystanders and observers of this thread, the others involved make a living out of it, and as seen in other threads floating around recently past history is rearing its ugly head at times.
TBH I'd say it needs putting to bed for good before it gets too nasty.
21 November 2006, 12:52 PM
#198
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I thought it was agreed about the merits of both forms of mapping but now it seems to coming down to nitpicking or specifics unrelated to the original debate, which in my thoughts is "does it matter?" not really i think.
21 November 2006, 12:54 PM
#199
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Originally Posted by jim litten
Unfortunately Maddog it's only a hobby for mere bystanders and observers of this thread, the others involved make a living out of it, and as seen in other threads floating around recently past history is rearing its ugly head at times.
TBH I'd say it needs putting to bed for good before it gets too nasty.
TBH I'd say it needs putting to bed for good before it gets too nasty.
Ns04
21 November 2006, 12:58 PM
#200
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I agree Ns04 though having said that the original topic of this thread has given enlightenment to us with lesser knowledge. If you can ignore the snipes there is an informative collection of information on here which we otherwise might not have learned about.
21 November 2006, 01:14 PM
#201
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Originally Posted by Maddog
I agree Ns04 though having said that the original topic of this thread has given enlightenment to us with lesser knowledge. If you can ignore the snipes there is an informative collection of information on here which we otherwise might not have learned about.
Ns04
21 November 2006, 01:17 PM
#202
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
Agreed- it's understandable that these things can get quite heated between people who make a living out of tuning, but I've seen too many of these types of threads descend into name calling and counter-accusations that no-one other than the parties involved can comment on. IMHO these types of things are, therefore, best suited to PMs and E-mails; all airing this on a public forum generally acheives is making both parties look bad, irrespective of who's right and who's wrong.
Ns04
Ns04
Originally Posted by Maddog
Regards the £200 TEG, Stuart thing, was there not something posted about Stuart (TEG)and Steve(Simpson) having a fallout or something like that? (..was it the Sigma ecu threads?)and so maybe that's why Stuart doesn't know anything about the so called conversations Harveys on about?
By association, this suggests that Andy is lying too !
But I assume that isn't what you meant to imply !
It's a good example of how things get misconstrued, and distorted.
Mark.
21 November 2006, 01:28 PM
#203
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Couldn't agree more Mark that people need to defend themselves or put the record straight, but at the end of the day this has now turned into "diferent thread, same old 5h!te"
21 November 2006, 01:45 PM
#204
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Originally Posted by Lateral Performance
That's all very well, but if someone makes an accusation on a public forum, isn't the "accused" entitled to defend themselves on that forum, .
Excuse me for bring crude, but as the old saying goes: Throw enough sh*t and it starts to stink!
In the above context, suffice to say that Andy and Harvey have excellent reputations on here and are both well liked. If there is an issue between them it is for them to resolve in private.
Such issues just escalate if aired on here as both parties are (understandably) worried about the implications of the fallout for their business; thus what might be a small mis-understanding gets blown out of all proportion and then it DOES start to impact on how customers view an individual and their business.
I, for example, would never use the services of one tuning company on the basis of their conduct in a thread on here (it's no-one mentioned so far btw and nor am I going to name them).
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 21 November 2006 at 01:57 PM.
21 November 2006, 01:58 PM
#206
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
To be honest (Steven, is it?)
Originally Posted by jaytc2003
yep I agree, what started as one of the best real threads for months looks like its turning personal
When your own business reputation has mud thrown at it, you would be foolish to accept it for long.
As Jim says, the mud slinging on here and other theads, is nothing new, its been going on for years.
It will never change sadly.
21 November 2006, 02:03 PM
#207
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Agree with what is being said..
I thought the intelligent part of the thread was well discussed and the relevant avenues explored.. I was tempted to contribute (lets be honest I usually contribute something to most threads on here.. lol - on no not him again).. but Andy and Bob flew the Road mapping flag very well.. which is the where I also firmly sit but didn't feel an extra person posting would have helped as it was nice reading the discussion between Alan and Andy.. both contributing like adults.
Yet now another thread reduced to personal insults, mis-quotes and personal vendetta.
I expect at some point most people here said when they were like 5 that they didn't have any interest in girls.. that doesn't necessarily make them gay..
So I fail to see the relevance of anyone using rollers at some point in the past or making enquiries about them meaning they are lying about their current disposition...
Simon
I thought the intelligent part of the thread was well discussed and the relevant avenues explored.. I was tempted to contribute (lets be honest I usually contribute something to most threads on here.. lol - on no not him again).. but Andy and Bob flew the Road mapping flag very well.. which is the where I also firmly sit but didn't feel an extra person posting would have helped as it was nice reading the discussion between Alan and Andy.. both contributing like adults.
Yet now another thread reduced to personal insults, mis-quotes and personal vendetta.
I expect at some point most people here said when they were like 5 that they didn't have any interest in girls.. that doesn't necessarily make them gay..
So I fail to see the relevance of anyone using rollers at some point in the past or making enquiries about them meaning they are lying about their current disposition...
Simon
21 November 2006, 02:07 PM
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Of course it's the same old sh*te, and more often than not, from the same old people !
The problem with asking the moderators to edit or close a thread, is that it can be misconstrued by some, as someone trying to cover something up.
Accusations can be made, and sometimes they are easy to refute, and disprove, whilst other times it can be very difficult to disprove something, even when it is a blatant lie, or fabrication.
It only turns personal, when someone has nothing more worthwhile to say.
With regard to moderation, IMHO, there is a massive disparity in how this takes place, and it would be good to see some consistency.
Mark.
The problem with asking the moderators to edit or close a thread, is that it can be misconstrued by some, as someone trying to cover something up.
Accusations can be made, and sometimes they are easy to refute, and disprove, whilst other times it can be very difficult to disprove something, even when it is a blatant lie, or fabrication.
It only turns personal, when someone has nothing more worthwhile to say.
With regard to moderation, IMHO, there is a massive disparity in how this takes place, and it would be good to see some consistency.
Mark.
21 November 2006, 02:15 PM
#209
The thread could be split and the decent content of the original thread locked so that it can be used as a reference point. I thought that is what moderators do. They certainly do on my club's forum
There is some great info here and some big names in the tuning industry giving away some of their vast knowledge for free. It is a shame to see name calling but the intelligent reader should be able to see past that...
There is some great info here and some big names in the tuning industry giving away some of their vast knowledge for free. It is a shame to see name calling but the intelligent reader should be able to see past that...
21 November 2006, 03:06 PM
#210
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Originally Posted by dynamix
There is some great info here and some big names in the tuning industry giving away some of their vast knowledge for free. ...
If that had been me I think I would have had to say:
"Tim, are you absolutely sure you're not retarded???"
Ns04