LG John

Well that's funny because yesterday I drove a 350bhp Supra with more torque and drivability than you can throw a stick at and more grunt than an M3 and I still won't swap

pete1977

But still a big enough problem to put a lot of people off buying them.I looked at the M5 and was very keen even after doing some research on the VANOS problem but eventually i didnt think the price warranted the risk.Personally my experience with jap cars has been a lot more trouble free.

Branners

one thing to bear in mind is that the supra is even quicker once you are used to how to drive it. If you get somebody who knows the car to take you for a drive round then its even more amazing.

I look forward to seeing you at some of the Supra meets when you get it.

JB
www.mkivsupra.net

Dark Blue Mark

Dan have you driven a Honda long enough to understand one? Or are you pub talk power monger??

Can you also quantify "****"? Im a mechanical engineer so would be most interested to hear your synopsis on its flaws.... You may know that they have never had one reported to fail.

MB

turbodan

Fortunatley no ive not had to spend much time in a Honda.

LG John

How hard can it be:

1. Select drive
2. Plant throttle into the carpet

LG John

I'll let you handle this one mark

I usually let vtec speak for itself on the road

turbodan

I have never struggled getting past any Honda anywhere. Although I cant speak for the NSX. I will let my years of performance car driving speak for itself.

LG John

I also think its telling that in the last 2 months between us we've tried:

* 250bhp VX220 Turbo
* 350bhp Skyline
* Evo 8
* R33 Skyline
* Other you haven't mentioned and we are both still swithering and both have a well documented love for performance cars

AudiLover

Porsche?

AudiLover

Thats not true over in yank land several s2000 engines have gone pop, but then again those ***** dont know how to drive something without breaking it, as they are too used to their lazy piece of **** V8's

LG John

The engine's pop - thats not hard!!! Drive any engine without oil and it will blow up but there has never been a failure of the VTEC system. Ever

LG John

I must say I find it odd that in enthusiast circles vtec is regarded so lowly and yet in engineering circles its appreciated for its simplicity and yet effectiveness. It really seems like 95% of car enthusiasts are not interested in an engine unless you can ran 1.5 bar off boost through it reliably. Their loss

AudiLover

Now I undertstand what you mean. Dont know why so many people speak so badly about v-tec. I myself couldnt give a toss. If its fun to drive, then its fun to drive. Unless its american, as something that doenst do corners isnt fun.

turbodan

Its nowhere near as complicated and doesnt give as good results though... so big deal?

ScoobyDoo555

to get the post back on topic (as the lary people seem to have stuck the awe in!!! )

Supra - great car. Would love one, but the days of a 2dr have long since left me!!! (hence my defection to a performance Audi avant!! )

The only thing that would put me off is the running costs, such as the rear tyres. IIRC, they're meaty to say the least!!

But as others have said, it's got to be a case of trying it on your daily run, to see if you could live with it.

Daft question, is the boot big?

Dan

turbodan

Fun to drive and the purists hate it because the power delivery is **** for racing.

Dark Blue Mark

Lol, have you seen some of the race spec S2000's - many still running a 2l capacity? They make amazing race / track cars and will keep up with really big stuff.

Also, "its nowhere near as complicated" is a rather odd statement. It is true, but also reveals you will never be an engineer

MB

turbodan

Not sure where we are going with this. The Honda VTEC system is basic and as such therefore less prone to failure - no surprises there. It is also considerably less effective, hence the poor power delivery - no surprises there.

And im not an engineer - which you seem to view as a negative. Are we all to aspire to be engineers? Am I missing out? If i become an engineer will I trade in my Evo for a cheap sports car? Is this the way forward? Hello???

Dark Blue Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvR3UFbkLA

MB

Dark Blue Mark

No its just you are arguing the BMW variant is better, which I dont believe it is technically. Again, define less effective and poor power delivery.

A 3.2 producing 350 bhp (109.375 bhp per litre)

Or squeezing 240 bhp from a 2 litre... (120 bhp per litre)

RELIABLY

MB

turbodan

Youre confusing bang for buck with effectiveness. Its EASY to squeeze big power out of a 2 litre. My meagre 2 litre is curretnyl throwing out about 175bhp/litre. So what? You can get a 1.4 push rod engine in a Renault 5 to do similar outputs to your Honda. So what?

Dark Blue Mark

its not easy at all, unless you go for forced induction. The 2l F20C is well heralded as an amazing piece of engineering. Hell its got more power than a 2l turbo WRX!

I think you have lost the train of this.

You said the VTEC is **** and cant back it up.

MB

AudiLover

the honda engine is a bit like a superbike engine.

turbodan

I have found the engines lacking in flexibility. I think its a cheap, reliable way of deriving big power from small capacity. Nothing wrong with it - but to compare the engineering from what BMW have achived with the M engines seems way off. You get what you pay for.

LG John

God no!!!! It's about 30cm deep and is smaller than the S2000's boot. It looks like you could make more space if you removed the tool kit and spare wheel but even still it's gash. There is some useful space in the rear though which features two pathetic seats that even kids would struggle with.

Vtec is perfectly acceptable for racing. If you take the S2000 and keep her above 7000rpm it pulls hard and instantly so all of the time. Keeping it above 7000rpm is NOT hard even on the public road and is even easier on a track. I really can't understand why people don't get this. I honestly fear that I'm part of some elite enlightened handful of the species that naturally knows how to get 100% of performance from an engine

My MY99 scooby had ~280bhp and the S2000 is just as fast when I work it. The difference is that if I want I can get 100% of the subaru performance from 75% effort and you can't do that with vtec.

I can't believe I've let myself be drawn into this again Mark, you didn't fight the corner well enough

LG John

Why do would want flexibility for racing or fast road driving. If you want flexibility buy a 150pdtdi or a 330d or 535d or a big CC lazy V8

Dark Blue Mark

But you haven't driven one??

If you just look at the car and not the engine, and compare the 3 litre V6 from the NSX (which is around 18 years old) it produced 280-300 bhp and still is reliable. I have no doubt they could now push a 3L engine waaay further than that using the iVtec and still keep it relaible. Both of them have extensive F1 experience at the end of the day.

Im not having a pop at BMW btw, the M3 is a great car - im just saying that the Honda VTEC does the same thing, simpler and therefore more reliable.

Its just the fact that they currently dont have a car in the same range to compare to the M3. I would take an NSX over an M3 though...

MB

LG John

I've not driven a M3 so I can't comment but John Banks, a well respected board member, reports that they were comparitively gutless with all their power at the top end JUST like vtec. Of course an M3 has more grunt than an S2000 because its got 1.2l and 2 cyclinders more but I think the point is for a 3.2 straight 6 its pretty rev-reliant as well.

I can't help but feel you've made a fairly uneducated attack on an entire technology without much in the way of supporting evidence. Also, what do you drive Dan?

turbodan

UK roads just dont allow fast road driving anymore. Unless its 6am. If I could live with the tractor noise of a diesel and the distinct lack of fun at running out of puff at 5K id buy one.