Brendan Hughes

No sabre-rattling from Bush, just simple and easy advice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5187276.stm

Apple_One

There is no answer to this question. And this war will go on forever. I cant believe how sad it all is.

Lord Shrek

it always has been and always will be feked between the 2 parties.

take your heads out of your *****...they hate each other period

leslie.........sigh.....be speaking deutsch if you were in charge of this country

too many soft pc lily livered nimbys on this forum

has polluted the police/education system/nhs/army with this 'dont smack a child' bull **** approach

get real ppl and see it for what it is........pure hatred on both sides

case dismissed

Hoppy

You may be right, Shrek. But does that mean we all stand back and do nothing? It may be a case of damage limitation, but that's surely worthwhile, if only to keep our petrol prices down.

And you're wrong about us ever "speaking deutsch". Germany was utterly fooked by the end of WW2 and couldn't control its own nation, let alone the rest of Europe in revolt. And if that didn't happen soon enough, one of Mr America's nice big bombs would do the trick. And one on Italy to make double sure.

Or do you think that it would have ended better if the USA had just said "pure hatred on both sides" and left us to it?


Richard.

Luan Pra bang

[QUOTE=unclebuck]I love it. It's a great way to wind up [QUOTE]

It takes lots of work to wind someone up by saying all muslims are ****s. Why not I hate n***gers or I like to fondle children. Very clever troll that you are.

Hoppy

Not quite. The terrorist threat is real but if we are clever, careful and lucky, could be contained.

On the other hand, thousands of people have lost their jobs because of the exploding economies of China and India. Call centres are an obvious one, engineering/manufacturing another big one, cost of steel rising daily as a direct result, world energy crisis looming. This will affect millions of us within the next decade, and some areas of employment will be decimated and prices for us all will rise relentlessly. Invest in a secure pension now

That "is the single biggest threat to [our] existance and way of life". It is real, it is big and getting bigger fast, it is happening now and the conclusion is inevitable. We can try and slow it down, shift the emphasis and use diplomacy to soften the blow, but it will be painful for every single one of us.

Richard.

PS Edited to add, if you want prosperity for your children, get them to learn fluent Mandarin. They will be able to name their own salary in a few years time. Truth.

Lord Shrek

'And you're wrong about us ever "speaking deutsch". Germany was utterly fooked by the end of WW2 and couldn't control its own nation, let alone the rest of Europe in revolt. And if that didn't happen soon enough, one of Mr America's nice big bombs would do the trick. And one on Italy to make double sure.

Or do you think that it would have ended better if the USA had just said "pure hatred on both sides" and left us to it?'

i was suggesting u monkey brain that if leslie had of been in charge duting ww2 then we would have lost the war due to leslie's soft ****/neville chamberlain/seeing the good in everything approach.....germany might have created the bomb sooner who knows if good old leslie 'saying blackboard is racist' was in charge

dont think you can compare england and germany to israel and the arabs....there wasnt intense cultural hatred during ww2 and now look at us and germany u neanderthal

case dismissed......next!!!

GCollier

For anyone interested in a truly insightful view of the utter nonsense of religious "belief" and its extremely worrying capacity for catastrophic destruction, I would urge you read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. It's a gripping, yet easy to read book, by an exceptionally intelligent man. It's not just damming of Islam (though it does bear the brunt of his attack) - Christianity, especially in the hands of some of the fundamentalist nutters in power in the US gets a full broadside as well.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...lance&n=266239

"Read Sam Harris and wake up" ---- Richard Dawkins.

Hoppy

Shrek, so your suggestion of a way forward is what, then?

If you want to be purely selfish about it, just a suggestion as to how we make Britain a better and safer place in the face of the general Middle East situation?

Case re-opened...

Lord Shrek

'Shrek, so your suggestion of a way forward is what, then?

The only way forward is the 'good old peace process' that always gets scuppered. Im not blinkered and do not hold out for a successful long term conclusion to the jewish/arab conflict. They hate each other period and it will never resolve itself. Too many radicals on either side.

'If you want to be purely selfish about it, just a suggestion as to how we make Britain a better and safer place in the face of the general Middle East situation?'

Become an islamic state and buy your wife a ninja outfit.

Case closed me thinks.....

Hoppy

I have not read this book and don't intend to, but click on the link and read the several extensive and erudite reviews that other readers have submitted. You'll soon get the drift.

There may be a great deal of truth in what author Sam Harris says in that all religious belief is fundamentally destructive (including Nazism and Communism BTW) but his suggestion that 'religious tollerance' should be banished and all religious beliefs dismantled is effectively not just another form of religion itself, but also patently ludicrous.

I would put forward a slightly different view (not an optimistic one) in that I believe all of humanity is essentially 'tribal' and that we are preconditioned to form groups with a common view (faith) and historially this has been centred around geography. As travelling around our global village has become so easy, geographical borders have been eroded and now we find clashing pockets of opposing tribes all over the world, including the UK. (I could also mention the Irish Problem which will pop up again sometime for sure, but I won't )

Did anybody watch the TV documentary 'Tribe' last night (Sun 16 July, BBC2 9pm) first prog in a series of three. Ex-Marine presenter chapie lived with a fearsome tribe in Ethiopia, universally hated and feared by all other surrounding tribes, who kill and steal cattle at every opportunity (with AK47s from Sudan). There is great pride and status in claiming a life, yet it is glaringly obvious that five minutes of reasonable dialogue between all the tribes could result in a much better way of life for everybody - at least from our perspective. But where is the glory in that?

Richard.

PS Shrek, yes, case closed with you

Lord Shrek

you state the obvious hoppy yet again

everyone is a member of a clan/tribe

tribes/clans living in close proximity tolerate each others norms/values but dont necessarily think its wonderful unlike leslie 'isnt all this integration wonderful'

once one tribe becomes too big and encroaches on anothers space all hell breaks loose

probably what will happen in this country in 10 to 20 years

your weak case is dismissed yet again

(btw dont quote your book nonsense..think for yourself man)

GCollier

Hoppy, without reading the book, such statements simply demonstrate your lack of understanding of the position of the author.

His desire to banish religious tolerance is not a siren-call to some sort of deranged prejudiced hatred, but rather a wake-up call to treat religion no differently from other matters. To quote one passage that sticks in my mind, he asks what our reaction would be if one of our leaders (e.g. Bush/Blair) thanked “Zeus” or “Apollo” in one of their speeches? They’d probably get sectioned, yet we think nothing of them thaking “God”, whose chance of exisiting is equally improbable.

And his position is certainly not one of simply another “religion”. A religion is characterised by belief in the absence of evidence…in fact a religion is something which elevates and praises the stupidity of belief without evidence. This is the antithesis of Harris’ position.

Gary.

Hoppy

Get a grip, Shrek and read more carefully. I'm not quoting any book nonsense, but my own thesis evolved over many years. It just happens to have been vividly illustrated in a TV documentary just last night. And if you hadn't noticed, I think we agree on the tribal thing

Richard.

Hoppy

Gary, so how, exactly, do we "treat religion no differently from other matters"? Don't quote a daft hyposthesis about Bush/Blair; give me a real life, practical example. Something you and I can do tomorrow to neutralise all religious disagreements and move foward to a peaceful planet.

I don't think you can, because I don't believe religion is the problem, but our inherant tribal nature. And you can't get rid of that.

And what is this "A religion is characterised by belief in the absence of evidence" nonsense? ''Evidence' is what we learn from our elders and betters in our society. It has nothing to do with any 'facts'. We happen to have been conditioned by what we read in books, the media, get from respected politicians, and not forgetting our parents. These 'facts' are the basis of our view on life, our faith.

Present the young and impressionable with a different set of 'facts' and you get an entirely different result. This is without question.

I understand the position of author Harris, and he appears to make a lot of very relevant observations (from our perspective). But, to coin a phrase, he fails to draw any 'road map to peace'. I'm not sure one exists, but it does seem to be true that when we are involved in dialoge and diplomacy, you can keep the lid on things for a bit and minimise the damage.

But that's as good as it gets, I fear, based on the facts I believe to be true over the last few thousand years.

Richard.

PS As an aside, I once read somewhere that we will never discover any extra-terrestrial life, because any society with technology sufficiently developed for inter-galactic travel will have wiped itself out through internal squabbling long ago. I think it was said with a hint of humour regarding our current plight, but you can't escape the irony.

Lord Shrek

'Get a grip, Shrek and read more carefully. I'm not quoting any book nonsense, but my own thesis evolved over many years. It just happens to have been vividly illustrated in a TV documentary just last night. And if you hadn't noticed, I think we agree on the tribal thing'

I had noticed your point about the tribal thing which i why i said you are stating the obvious my old blind mucker....learn to read more carefully.

If it took you 2 years to develop your 'cat-food eating' student thesis about 'tribes' then
I developed that very same theory with a bottle of stella and a *** in me gob

another case bites the dust

Lord Shrek

over-population is the fundamental problem

that only took me 2 mins to think of hopper

case dismissed son..you know it

Hoppy

It's hard keeping up with you, Shrek, but it took me milleseconds to know you are wrong on over-population.

It's the disproportionate distribution of wealth, or rather, it's the fact that everybody knows about it. We used to be able to keep this quiet, but with satellite TV and cheap air travel, our secret is out and they want some of it.

BTW, average annual salary for an Israeli is $18,000, for a Palestinian it's $2,000. You ever been to down-town Jerusalem? It's not hard to tell the two apart - one sits on the floor dressed in rags selling veg for pennies, the others sweep by in smart clothes on their mobile phones.

Richard.

PS Don't call me 'son' unless you are at least 80

Leslie

I have no option but to reply to Lord Shrek's unprincipled attack on me. Incidentally your style reminds me of another Snetter who was a expert at insulting people without any suitable reason for doing so. Pity you have to hide behind another screen name!

What have you personally done to defend this country? I think the fact that I spent a good many years doing exactly that and was prepared to drop a "bucket of sunshine" on a one way trip on any one who was attacking this country as well as taking part in other conflicts make your accusation total rubbish. Don't you dare accuse me of being soft, I expect an apology for your unpleasantness. Your specious insults and biased attitudes certainly don't make you any more manly for sure.

I maintain that there is nothing wrong in looking at both sides of a conflict between opposing sides and investigating the reasons behind it all. It would be better to try to find a possible way of sorting it out without unnecessary conflict with all the death and distruction associated with that. If that does not work then other actions may be necessary. I repeat what I have said before, war is obscene. That does not mean to say that I would not defend my own country against attack, to the death if necessary. The distruction and deaths of innocent civilians in Iraq is a prime example. The other problems created by that illegal adventure mean that this country will be remembered for many years for attacking another country without the support of the Security Council and for an illegal reason at the same time telling everyone lies about the reason for doing it. We will also be a terrorist target for the foreseable future. What is your view about that Lord Shrek?

Your unpleasant, insulting and unsupported posts do you no credit Lord Shrek, "Case dismissed", you do seem to be one too! All sound and fury signifying nothing!

Les

Iwan

Les, try not to rise to his obvious trolling. I'm not sure why he's chosen to attack you personally, but every regular on here probably thinks he's a right tw@t for doing so - I certainly do.

Just add him to your ignore list like I just did, and enjoy the sunshine.

Leslie

Thanks Iwan, I am alive to the situation, should be by now Not going to ley him get away with it though! I'll go back to sorting a small dent in the car in the sunshine.

Les

Iwan

That's the spirit.

Lord Shrek

i wasnt attacking...merely pointing out leslie holds the type of view that makes this country weak

for all his 'dropping buckets of sunshine' and 'fighting to the death' talk he sure does hold weird views

'I maintain that there is nothing wrong in looking at both sides of a conflict between opposing sides and investigating the reasons behind it all. It would be better to try to find a possible way of sorting it out without unnecessary conflict with all the death and distruction associated with that.
How long has 'try to find a possible way of sorting it out' been going on?

'If that does not work then other actions may be necessary' - so you do condone war sometimes...mmmm

' I repeat what I have said before, war is obscene. That does not mean to say that I would not defend my own country against attack, to the death if necessary.'

Indirect justification for suicide bombing? If you were in the services flying your lanc you should be ashamed.....support our troops at least no matter what your views are. They are dying too and just doing their jobs like you did dropping the sunshines.

'The distruction and deaths of innocent civilians in Iraq is a prime example.'

No mention of the sadist genocidal regime before or muslims killing muslims now for the sheer hell of it.

'The other problems created by that illegal adventure mean that this country will be remembered for many years for attacking another country without the support of the Security Council and for an illegal reason at the same time telling everyone lies about the reason for doing it. We will also be a terrorist target for the foreseable future. What is your view about that Lord Shrek?'

I doubt it...we are allied with the USA so we are a target anyway...did bali attack iraq??

Case dismissed leslie and you know it

BTW dont take it personally just banter me old mucker..if everyone agreed then your utopia would exist

GCollier

Religious disagreements will *never* be removed whilst religion still exists. Once people believe - truly believe - that their religious text contains the one and only "true" way of how "God" wishes all men to live on earth, then conflict is a foregone conclusion.

In terms of what you and I can do - well without being in both positions of influence and well versed in the art of rhetoric, then individually the answer on a global scale is not very much. But what we can do is challenged flawed reasoning, flawed religious thinking amongst friends, colleagues, associates etc - in short try to get people we can influence to open their eyes and actually *think*.


Look at the chief causes of conflict in the world today. What distinguishes these "tribes" from one another? Religion.

Evidence is not what we learn from our elders and betters. Unless what is told can be substantiated by observations made of the world today, then it is simply dogma.

I think he maps out the road extremely well. Persuading people of a religious persuasion to abandon dogma, irratiionality, mindless blind faith, myth and fairy tale and follow the road is the difficult task.

A somewhat sweeping generalisation to apply to all possible alien life, but in the context of humanity it may well be sadly true.

Gary.

lozgti

Amongst all the heavy (and useful) posts I can't work out the most important thing.

Is there reason to worry this time or is it same old same old middle east blat?

Reality

Time for a bit more worrying. As the sides get better armed the stakes are raised. Hezbollah / Hamas / 95% of fundamentalist Muslims want to see Israel exterminated. 80-95% of Israelis want to see Muslims exterminated.

Can't see there being much negotiating to take place while America is busy invading other Arab states with it's poodle at it's side.

Make the most of your Scoobies while Petrol is sub £3 a litre

Geezer

Gary,
Religion just happens to distinguish, but in the absence of religion, then humans would still form in to tribes, it's in our nature. Religion isn't the problem, it's humans basic tribalism.

I think what you are trying to say is that if all humans lived by the same code, then we wouldn't have a problem, religion is irrelevant. Look at the former communist states, they are officially atheists, but still the difference in idealogy causes conflict.

I'm no fan of organised religion, but it is not the problem per se.

As for everyone living in to the same moral and ethical standards, well, not inour lifetimes, or many more to come methinks.........

Geezer

Reality

Being told you cannot follow any Religion causes just as many problems as being told you are following the wrong one - However forcefully it's done

Hoppy

Worry about what? Rising oil prices, yes. Your holiday in Beirut, best not. The tragedy of mankind, definitely.

Are we going to get nuked, no. Is anybody else going to get a big one, extremely unlikely - the UN or US will put a lid on it until the heat dies down.

The worry is that every time this happens the stakes get higher, and who knows when the likes of Iran will have nuclear capability. If you can bring yourself to accept the belief that suicide bombers killing dozens of civilians is a good thing, then pressing the red button is a 'logical' next step and fear of retaliation is not an issue.

Fortunately, I think the numerous hot-head leaders around the world are actually very smart in a perverse way. You don't see any Palestinian figureheads strapping on bombs, nor will you. The ones sitting in the Big Brother chair have a different personal agenda to those they get to do their dirty work. At least, I hope they do.

Richard.

Hoppy

That's just inflammatory nonsense. I have lived in Lebabon and my brother lives in Israel. I was there a few months ago. The vast majority on both sides want peace.

That is also the thinking being Israel's massive retaliation against Lebanon's fundamental civilian infrastructure. The intention is to make life so miserable for the majority, that they put pressure on 'their' Palestinian agressors to call it off.

Richard.