Israel, right or wrong?
02 August 2006, 10:16 AM
#361
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
How can YOU use a word like humanity when in the same breath you've used the word hatred at least a couple of times on this thread alone, and "god willing, Israel will get a pounding", moses. Listen to yourself. Jesus.
u think im gonna answer a question by a troll
lol u must be kidding
02 August 2006, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris L
I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has been said before, but something has struck me over the last few days, as I have read the reports in the newspapers: Substitute Israel with Britain, Lebanon with Northern Ireland and Hamas with IRA. Think how the rest of the world would view our actions.
This whole ' well they started it first' attitude is just plain ridiculous. At some point, people have got to start talking. Bombing the hell out of civillians - no matter what justification Israel comes up with is just wrong.
Of all the people in the world, I would expect the Jews and Israel to understand persecution better than any one. It seems to me that they have a very short memory. Israel has to show that it is better than the 'terrorists' (or freedom fighters, depending on your point-of-view). I don't believe their current actions will bring anything other than more blood shed and just entrench the views and hatred that already exist.
I also find it abhorrent that we, as a nation (or certainly Blair) are prepared to blindly follow the US line on this. I am currently in France and the view over here is very different. We really do need to start thinking for ourselves.
This whole ' well they started it first' attitude is just plain ridiculous. At some point, people have got to start talking. Bombing the hell out of civillians - no matter what justification Israel comes up with is just wrong.
Of all the people in the world, I would expect the Jews and Israel to understand persecution better than any one. It seems to me that they have a very short memory. Israel has to show that it is better than the 'terrorists' (or freedom fighters, depending on your point-of-view). I don't believe their current actions will bring anything other than more blood shed and just entrench the views and hatred that already exist.
I also find it abhorrent that we, as a nation (or certainly Blair) are prepared to blindly follow the US line on this. I am currently in France and the view over here is very different. We really do need to start thinking for ourselves.
02 August 2006, 10:33 AM
#364
11 civilians were killed in an air strike yesterday.
At the same time the EU spent most of the day arguing over the wording of their message...
I am disgusted by the inaction by our politicians who have it in their power to help end this.
At the same time the EU spent most of the day arguing over the wording of their message...
I am disgusted by the inaction by our politicians who have it in their power to help end this.
02 August 2006, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
Avoid the question, easiest way 
yes for sure from an old troll who loves baiting
troll troll trolli avoid trolls now lol
true sj, it makes me sick, thats all they do talk and talk and do **** all but when it comes to irans nuclear ambitions , hell u know how far they will push the sanctions and other stuff, but when it comes to the israeli puppet masters , they would do jack ****, but its cool according to the bible, israels end is coming, God said in the bible. palestine as a whole, egypt, lebanon, syria and basically the muslim lands will be one and serving God, that leaves the israeli zionists out and israel will be back in the hands of the palestinians
cheers
02 August 2006, 10:41 AM
#366
Originally Posted by moses
God said in the bible. palestine as a whole, egypt, lebanon, syria and basically the muslim lands...
02 August 2006, 10:43 AM
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The bible also said that there was Adam and Eve and their 2 sons Kane and Able.
So did the kids have sex with their mother to create us all, and are we all inbreds ?
So did the kids have sex with their mother to create us all, and are we all inbreds ?
02 August 2006, 10:44 AM
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How is asking how you reconcile "humanity" with wishing to bomb Israel off the face of the planet trolling, exactly?
You fekkin hate the way i ask you the questions that show you in your true light. And you know it. Excellent.
You fekkin hate the way i ask you the questions that show you in your true light. And you know it. Excellent.
02 August 2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jjones
did he happen to mention the 6 winning numbers for tonights draw? or maybe something else useful like how to find the g spot?
lol u nutter
02 August 2006, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
How is asking how you reconcile "humanity" with wishing to bomb Israel off the face of the planet trolling, exactly?
You fekkin hate the way i ask you the questions that show you in your true light. And you know it. Excellent.
You fekkin hate the way i ask you the questions that show you in your true light. And you know it. Excellent.
lol i luv it i get under your skin, the troll
u dont ask questions u bait and r bad at it
02 August 2006, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
You don't think the two are inextricably linked, Brendan?
i know what is linked, that u r a dick and a ***** a pussydick
02 August 2006, 11:06 AM
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Tel - Honestly, no, not really. I see it as a question of leaders' policies as much as religious dogma. I haven't agreed with much of what Hoppy has said in this thread but I do believe what he says that most of both populations are sick of fighting and just want peace, yet for some reason they can't get politicians with the guts to negotiate them. In the mid-90s there was Rabin, who looked like he was almost there, only to get shot by some right-wing Israeli. I don't think Israel is really motivated by religion, only some disproportionate form of self-defence and superiority/inferiority complex, and I think the Muslim cause, at least as far as Palestine goes, is legitimate feeling of theft of territory dressed up with religious crap just to inflame people and keep them boiling. Someone posted a year or so ago a research that showed most of the suicide bombers and terrorist conflicts came due to loss of land - as soon as the land was handed back, the fighting dwindled out, whatever the supposed religious reasons behind it. Yes, you'd always get sporadic incidents, but nothing on the scale of what is at present. And at least then the West would have a legitimate reason to come down hard on whoever is the Muslim government; at present I and many see the Muslims protesting (violently) about the illegal occupation of their land and being labelled terrorists as a result. Poor ba5tards just can't win.
Of course Jews and Arabs have been at each others' throats for thousands of years, and doubtless will find a reason to continue to be so - as I said earlier, Catholics and Protestants haven't exactly been peaceful either, so that's nothing new. But bombing UN peacekeepers, shooting or bulldozing them (Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie? etc), wiping out entire civilian infrastructures in the name of locating a few "terrorists"... you can't justify that in the name of self-defence.
Of course I know the answer as much or as little as the next guy, but I feel the land is the root cause which should be addressed. In return, Hamas et al will have to drop all their claims about annihilating Israel and just have to learn that they're stuck with a neighbour they don't like. But it's clear that if they want to pick a fight, they'll only ever lose.
Unfortunately, now we have a raving loony in charge of Iran who's throwing as much **** into the fan as possible
Of course Jews and Arabs have been at each others' throats for thousands of years, and doubtless will find a reason to continue to be so - as I said earlier, Catholics and Protestants haven't exactly been peaceful either, so that's nothing new. But bombing UN peacekeepers, shooting or bulldozing them (Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie? etc), wiping out entire civilian infrastructures in the name of locating a few "terrorists"... you can't justify that in the name of self-defence.
Of course I know the answer as much or as little as the next guy, but I feel the land is the root cause which should be addressed. In return, Hamas et al will have to drop all their claims about annihilating Israel and just have to learn that they're stuck with a neighbour they don't like. But it's clear that if they want to pick a fight, they'll only ever lose.
Unfortunately, now we have a raving loony in charge of Iran who's throwing as much **** into the fan as possible
02 August 2006, 11:13 AM
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I think that "some reason" is that they fundamentally loathe each other, Brendan, whether it's primarily religion, territory or whatever else driven. Whilst Israel exists, i think we'll be re-visiting this time and time again. It really does make me wonder if it will eventually result in the end-game war just to sort it out once and for all, in the most basic way man knows how. Very, very precarious.
02 August 2006, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
You really are still such a sad **** aren't you?
Post some more, please. Some people on here haven't seen all this ****e yet.
Post some more, please. Some people on here haven't seen all this ****e yet.
trolls have seen it all and they dont like the truth and lol if im a **** u must be a right woos, u must have missed me
the one who talks ****e is u, u live on trolling and feeding of my *****
sorry mods , i dont wanna go down to telboys sewer level so i will just ignore him
and sorry mods and all
02 August 2006, 11:24 AM
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KiwiGT,
You defend Hezbollah and say they are not terrorists when they are aiming rockets at civilians in Israel and also commit suicide bombings and are also reported to be forcing Lebanese civilians to stay put in the places where they are firing their rockets in an effort to gain sympathy for their organisation. How do you feel about the IRA and their actions then, did they have a right in the same way that you say Hezbollah has? They are of course heavily supported by Iran and Syria financially and with weapons. Not the best of bedfellows I think.
I think your stated and vicious anti semitic feelings have forced you into denial over this situation.
Les
You defend Hezbollah and say they are not terrorists when they are aiming rockets at civilians in Israel and also commit suicide bombings and are also reported to be forcing Lebanese civilians to stay put in the places where they are firing their rockets in an effort to gain sympathy for their organisation. How do you feel about the IRA and their actions then, did they have a right in the same way that you say Hezbollah has? They are of course heavily supported by Iran and Syria financially and with weapons. Not the best of bedfellows I think.
I think your stated and vicious anti semitic feelings have forced you into denial over this situation.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 02 August 2006 at 11:26 AM.
02 August 2006, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by moses
i dont wanna go down to telboys sewer level so i will just ignore him
and sorry mods and all
and sorry mods and all
oh the irony I thought Telboy was a gnome, not a troll
02 August 2006, 11:28 AM
#382
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Tel, I'm not so sure. You can fundamentally loathe someone, but to put yourself in mortal danger to get rid of them is going a whole step further and absolutely against evolutionary principles. Look at the simplistic parallels with NI - no Brit in the 70s or early 80s would countenance negotiating with the IRA or Sinn Fein, the papers were full of "terrorist scum bloodbath once again, our heroic troops", you'd be seen as an appeaser, a traitor etc. And did the military solution work? No, not really. We somehow got a negotiated settlement (started as early as Thatcher, despite her popular public image), it's fragile, there are occasional incidents still, but both sides are a bit more open to the idea of solving the dispute via words rather than guns; and the politicians then dare to take a step further in the negotiations as they won't get crucified by the tabloids and thus voted out of office (which is all that politicians care about, by definition). The Catholics and Prods still hate each other, it was only a couple of years ago we had the despicable films of the parents spitting at the school bus, but at least the killings seem to have pretty much stopped.
With the Middle East it's a bit different, it's true religion plays a role, partly that our media is their imams/rabbis who answer to a higher deity than Rupert Murdoch, and also (a big one that our Western minds don't always comprehend) death seems to be not such a big deal to a Muslim as the concept of martyrdom and the afterlife is so strong, thus death is not always seen as a last resort. But the religious leaders of both sides are quite happy to adjust their interpretation of the Word if it brings them more money/power (either by western "support" or just in the form of a larger, less dead congregation), so there's hope yet.
With the Middle East it's a bit different, it's true religion plays a role, partly that our media is their imams/rabbis who answer to a higher deity than Rupert Murdoch, and also (a big one that our Western minds don't always comprehend) death seems to be not such a big deal to a Muslim as the concept of martyrdom and the afterlife is so strong, thus death is not always seen as a last resort. But the religious leaders of both sides are quite happy to adjust their interpretation of the Word if it brings them more money/power (either by western "support" or just in the form of a larger, less dead congregation), so there's hope yet.
02 August 2006, 12:12 PM
#383
Originally Posted by Leslie
KiwiGT,
You defend Hezbollah and say they are not terrorists when they are aiming rockets at civilians in Israel and also commit suicide bombings and are also reported to be forcing Lebanese civilians to stay put in the places where they are firing their rockets in an effort to gain sympathy for their organisation. How do you feel about the IRA and their actions then, did they have a right in the same way that you say Hezbollah has? They are of course heavily supported by Iran and Syria financially and with weapons. Not the best of bedfellows I think.
I think your stated and vicious anti semitic feelings have forced you into denial over this situation.
Les
You defend Hezbollah and say they are not terrorists when they are aiming rockets at civilians in Israel and also commit suicide bombings and are also reported to be forcing Lebanese civilians to stay put in the places where they are firing their rockets in an effort to gain sympathy for their organisation. How do you feel about the IRA and their actions then, did they have a right in the same way that you say Hezbollah has? They are of course heavily supported by Iran and Syria financially and with weapons. Not the best of bedfellows I think.
I think your stated and vicious anti semitic feelings have forced you into denial over this situation.
Les
2) Suicide bombings again are probably one of the only ways that they know how to fight against Israel, or to be a thorn in Israels side.
3) I don't know anything about the IRA situation to comment
4) So what if they are supported by Iran and Syria, Israel is supported by the US.
First and foremost I am a humanist, I don't condone killing of anybody, apart from certain criminals, and really struggle to understand how people can cause each other physical harm, even more so when children are involved.
I completely dislike the state of Israel, it's history, it's leaders and the way it was founded. In addition many of the population are the most arrogant people you could ever meet. I despise the Zionists who believe that the jews are the chosen race and I also dislike the way the jews tend to control certain industries such as finance, diamonds, IT security and large sections of the media. And then the way they use that influence to manipulate governments. I also dislike them playing the victim all the time.
I've also never hidden the fact that I am also generally anti-Islam, which I consider to be a barbaric and backwards religion, or cult, that needs to undergo radical modernisation and separation from the state before it can even consider getting any respect from the west.
Maybe I am anti-semitic but then I'll justify every one of my reasons with hard facts. So what if I offend people.
Last edited by KiwiGTI; 02 August 2006 at 12:23 PM.
02 August 2006, 12:21 PM
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I can see where you're coming from, Brendan, and yes, i hope everybody does step back from the brink. This time, the time after this and the time after that.
Kiwi - i think that reflects my general opinion too to be honest. Both as bad as each other.
Kiwi - i think that reflects my general opinion too to be honest. Both as bad as each other.
02 August 2006, 12:36 PM
#385
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
I've also never hidden the fact that I am also generally anti-Islam, which I consider to be a barbaric and backwards religion, or cult, that needs to undergo radical modernisation and separation from the state before it can even consider getting any respect from the west.
How can things change for the better when a group rejects any change and issues death threats to anybody who says 'well actually, perhaps burning and stoning people who have an affair is not on', conversely I think our culture could do with a bit of a shake up and perhaps even take some of the justice concepts (modified) from Islam, then we may not be in mess we are.
Trouble is we (Non Muslims) have feckless indefference and Islam has Righteous religous fanaticism, we cant be arsed and they won't listen.
Last edited by J4CKO; 02 August 2006 at 12:43 PM.
02 August 2006, 12:46 PM
#386
Originally Posted by J4CKO
Its funny, when I read that, I thought, 'You cant say that' its racist (and will possibly get you kicked off SN, villified as a racist, sent to prison or hacked to death)
Saying I'm anti-Islam is IMO no different from saying I am anti-religion. Does this mean we are no longer allowed to discuss comparative theology at all, or debate the existence of God as it could be offensive to religious people to even suggest he doesn't exist.
I agree that the much of the West has lost many values such as discipline and respect.
Last edited by KiwiGTI; 02 August 2006 at 12:49 PM.
02 August 2006, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by J4CKO
Moses, am I being a racist ***** ?, do I have a point, is Islam open to criticism, change and reasoning or is it just a case of we are right and you lot are Infidels, Zionists etc so what does your opinion matter ?
I've lived in Russia. When you try to say what a stupid system they have for so and so, you'll get bristling and "you will never understand the Russian soul".
I've lived in Portugal. As stated by a colleague of mine, "we all know it is illegal for any foreigner to criticise anything Portuguese".
I've lived in Britain, and read NSR, and I can sure as hell imagine the reaction to any foreigner that turns up and starts criticising the British way of life and trying to do things differently as they think it's better. EDIT - post above proves my point nicely
It's the group itself that has to change - any outsider that tries to encourage or force it will immediately meet with resistance.
Last edited by Brendan Hughes; 02 August 2006 at 01:03 PM.
02 August 2006, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by doug2507
"nice post dude i agree with u as its our country we can do something about blair and his evil regime coz he is doing good for only the usa and israel and betraying our country "
Am i missing something here? Our country? He's not betraying 'my' country mate and i'm one of the unfortunate few that have to go to these muslim sh1th0le countries and sort their **** out for them cause theyre to busy fighting each other to give a f*ck about their own. And if theyre not fighting each other then they think its good crack to go blow up and shoot some of 'my' people who are trying to help the inocent few that are caught up in the middle. Why do you say Blair is betraying you? Are you not a guest in 'my' country? What gives you the right to have a say in the way this country is run. And who gives a monkeys whats happening with Israel. What the hell's it got to do with us? I personally dont give a damn about religion, and i apologise to all those that do. But when you're sent out to these country's to sort them out and help the inocent guys and see how 'religion' is taking care of them you cant help but think wtf is going on with these guys. Meant to be religious, live in harmony, treat others as you would yourself and all that stuff, its a load of sh1te mate. People read between the lines, select/choose to follow only certain parts of their 'how to be a good little follower' book then take the **** and start killing civillians left right and centre just because the choose to read the 'how to be a good little follower' written by some other crackpot.
You do support terrorism. You are openly giving your support to the f*cks that are day by day, firing rockets into Isreal. That my 'friend' is called terrorism. Fighting a war by fear and intimidation. How the hell can you justify the muslim community at the moment after 9/11, the london bomings and all the muslim imigrants in 'my' country that have been locked up for conspiring to commit acts of violence in the u.k? not much f**king wonder your not winning a popularity contest right now.
If you're thoughts on this matter are so so strong, go book a flight, buy an AK and go shoot some Isreali soldier if it makes you feel better.
You're such a bloody hipocrit. Saying other people are **** stirrers when your brothers are broadcasting on the net telling all muslims to pick up arms and fight the infidels. Go preach your crap in your own country mate. If you think Blair and bush are betraying you, go back to your own f**king country and watch how you're own are betraying each other.
Am i missing something here? Our country? He's not betraying 'my' country mate and i'm one of the unfortunate few that have to go to these muslim sh1th0le countries and sort their **** out for them cause theyre to busy fighting each other to give a f*ck about their own. And if theyre not fighting each other then they think its good crack to go blow up and shoot some of 'my' people who are trying to help the inocent few that are caught up in the middle. Why do you say Blair is betraying you? Are you not a guest in 'my' country? What gives you the right to have a say in the way this country is run. And who gives a monkeys whats happening with Israel. What the hell's it got to do with us? I personally dont give a damn about religion, and i apologise to all those that do. But when you're sent out to these country's to sort them out and help the inocent guys and see how 'religion' is taking care of them you cant help but think wtf is going on with these guys. Meant to be religious, live in harmony, treat others as you would yourself and all that stuff, its a load of sh1te mate. People read between the lines, select/choose to follow only certain parts of their 'how to be a good little follower' book then take the **** and start killing civillians left right and centre just because the choose to read the 'how to be a good little follower' written by some other crackpot.
You do support terrorism. You are openly giving your support to the f*cks that are day by day, firing rockets into Isreal. That my 'friend' is called terrorism. Fighting a war by fear and intimidation. How the hell can you justify the muslim community at the moment after 9/11, the london bomings and all the muslim imigrants in 'my' country that have been locked up for conspiring to commit acts of violence in the u.k? not much f**king wonder your not winning a popularity contest right now.
If you're thoughts on this matter are so so strong, go book a flight, buy an AK and go shoot some Isreali soldier if it makes you feel better.
You're such a bloody hipocrit. Saying other people are **** stirrers when your brothers are broadcasting on the net telling all muslims to pick up arms and fight the infidels. Go preach your crap in your own country mate. If you think Blair and bush are betraying you, go back to your own f**king country and watch how you're own are betraying each other.
lol i luv ***** like u
i luv saying the bitter rage in your hearts and the **** spewing out , doesnt matter what u think of me dude, do i give a **** of what u thinkand this is my country u get the **** out and suck on blairs ding dong if u wish, he has betrayed my country , u got a cheek, u mongrel do u even know who your ancestors r , u saying this aint my country is not gonna stop me being scottish, doesnt matter what u say u mongrel, im a patriot scots muslim and proud of it and nothing is ever gonna change that u aberdeen filthy son of a dole scrounging blair sucking doggy lover
your a **** and i shall not entertain u but rather see your rage and enjoy it
and also DEATH TO THE ISRAELI **** SCUM
02 August 2006, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by J4CKO
Trouble is we (Non Muslims) have feckless indefference and Islam has Righteous religous fanaticism, we cant be arsed and they won't listen.
Richard.
02 August 2006, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by J4CKO
Its funny, when I read that, I thought, 'You cant say that' its racist (and will possibly get you kicked off SN, villified as a racist, sent to prison or hacked to death) and then I thought, no the guy has an opinion about Islam and is entitled to an opinion and I think thats what is lacking these days, in the past I think people were just racist through the fear of the unknown or just because they were stupid enough to do it for the sake of it or to make themselves feel better, nowadays how things used to be means that a legitimate opion whether right or wrong cannot be voiced for fear of being called a racist, especially where Islam is concerned, i.e. the cartoon incident caused death and destruction, so to be honest I dont think I will say anything, its like trying to reason with the missus when she is pre menstrual, largely fruitless and usually ends in a battle. Moses, am I being a racist ***** ?, do I have a point, is Islam open to criticism, change and reasoning or is it just a case of we are right and you lot are Infidels, Zionists etc so what does your opinion matter ?
How can things change for the better when a group rejects any change and issues death threats to anybody who says 'well actually, perhaps burning and stoning people who have an affair is not on', conversely I think our culture could do with a bit of a shake up and perhaps even take some of the justice concepts (modified) from Islam, then we may not be in mess we are.
Trouble is we (Non Muslims) have feckless indefference and Islam has Righteous religous fanaticism, we cant be arsed and they won't listen.
How can things change for the better when a group rejects any change and issues death threats to anybody who says 'well actually, perhaps burning and stoning people who have an affair is not on', conversely I think our culture could do with a bit of a shake up and perhaps even take some of the justice concepts (modified) from Islam, then we may not be in mess we are.
Trouble is we (Non Muslims) have feckless indefference and Islam has Righteous religous fanaticism, we cant be arsed and they won't listen.
your entitled to your opinions if u wish coz u r white u will get away with it probably but if some ethnic lad has opinions about u, secularism, christianity and the white arrogance, im just giving u an example, u will condemn the person and tell him to **** out of the country even if he woz born here and did more for this country than any dole scrounging chav or neds or white people ever did, how come they arent entitled to put their views forward , how come freedom of speech is for those who spew hatred or bait others and inflame things rather than not the freedom of speech if someone holds up the truth
so u r saying its ok to commit adultery, cheat on your partner the one u luv or betray someone and ask a woman to respect her dignity rather than dress up as a ***** and go into the friday and saturday nite cattlemarket to get chewed and passed around the beast called man
u must be kidding dude
no offence jacko we have been here for a long time if i use the same reverse psychology as the anti islamists here and others, i get called a racist a terrorist and extremist, so where is the justice and freedom of speech for me
u tell me.
also doug i aint a guest in this country but u r, u r a sheepshagging aberdonian