Sikhs allowed to carry daggers to school!!!
03 March 2006, 04:58 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by OllyK
It was included as an option, but it still isn't a recognised religion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm
*Storms off*
May the force be with you!!
03 March 2006, 05:00 PM
#62
Hi - as a Sikh I do see both points of the story.
Just a quick rundown- the Dagger's baptised Sikhs carry were traditionally used to defend the weak etc and that is their sole purpose. They are never to be shown or used in attack. The majority of daggers or Kirpans as they are called are not functional anyway - you cannot pull them out of their sheath.
There are some members of the community who wear a smaller version of the Kirpan, almost like an icon around their neck on a black thread - this is ok but its not going to be much use if you need one
On the other hand I can see what people are saying abobut we have to assimilate to the British way of life - in defence of this I would like to point out that as a Faith community we are probably the best integrated bunch around, there's been very little in the way of negative stuff about Sikhs and I've only heard of 1 story ever where a Kirpan was used in an attack.
I'm proud that as a community we've tried to mix into western society, sometimes taking certain values back into our own homes.
You'll see from my other posts that I'm the first person to moan when somebody takes it upon themselves to talk on 'our' behalf, thru to the removal of Xmas decorations, hot cross buns without crosses etc so please don't think this is completely one sided.
If somebody really wants to harm somebody then nothing you can do is going to stop them. I would, if I was in the position of the person who's been allowed to carry the dagger, think about a halfway-house where they can appease both the school whilst also adhering to the tenants of Sikhism but to say we should all p1ss off back to our country etc is just stupid, particularly where we've put into this country as much if not more than we've taken out.
Hope it all makes sense
jai
Just a quick rundown- the Dagger's baptised Sikhs carry were traditionally used to defend the weak etc and that is their sole purpose. They are never to be shown or used in attack. The majority of daggers or Kirpans as they are called are not functional anyway - you cannot pull them out of their sheath.
There are some members of the community who wear a smaller version of the Kirpan, almost like an icon around their neck on a black thread - this is ok but its not going to be much use if you need one
On the other hand I can see what people are saying abobut we have to assimilate to the British way of life - in defence of this I would like to point out that as a Faith community we are probably the best integrated bunch around, there's been very little in the way of negative stuff about Sikhs and I've only heard of 1 story ever where a Kirpan was used in an attack.
I'm proud that as a community we've tried to mix into western society, sometimes taking certain values back into our own homes.
You'll see from my other posts that I'm the first person to moan when somebody takes it upon themselves to talk on 'our' behalf, thru to the removal of Xmas decorations, hot cross buns without crosses etc so please don't think this is completely one sided.
If somebody really wants to harm somebody then nothing you can do is going to stop them. I would, if I was in the position of the person who's been allowed to carry the dagger, think about a halfway-house where they can appease both the school whilst also adhering to the tenants of Sikhism but to say we should all p1ss off back to our country etc is just stupid, particularly where we've put into this country as much if not more than we've taken out.
Hope it all makes sense
jai
03 March 2006, 05:09 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by impreza_sports_nutter
Hi - as a Sikh I do see both points of the story.
Just a quick rundown- the Dagger's baptised Sikhs carry were traditionally used to defend the weak etc and that is their sole purpose. They are never to be shown or used in attack. The majority of daggers or Kirpans as they are called are not functional anyway - you cannot pull them out of their sheath.
There are some members of the community who wear a smaller version of the Kirpan, almost like an icon around their neck on a black thread - this is ok but its not going to be much use if you need one
On the other hand I can see what people are saying abobut we have to assimilate to the British way of life - in defence of this I would like to point out that as a Faith community we are probably the best integrated bunch around, there's been very little in the way of negative stuff about Sikhs and I've only heard of 1 story ever where a Kirpan was used in an attack.
I'm proud that as a community we've tried to mix into western society, sometimes taking certain values back into our own homes.
You'll see from my other posts that I'm the first person to moan when somebody takes it upon themselves to talk on 'our' behalf, thru to the removal of Xmas decorations, hot cross buns without crosses etc so please don't think this is completely one sided.
If somebody really wants to harm somebody then nothing you can do is going to stop them. I would, if I was in the position of the person who's been allowed to carry the dagger, think about a halfway-house where they can appease both the school whilst also adhering to the tenants of Sikhism but to say we should all p1ss off back to our country etc is just stupid, particularly where we've put into this country as much if not more than we've taken out.
Hope it all makes sense
jai
Just a quick rundown- the Dagger's baptised Sikhs carry were traditionally used to defend the weak etc and that is their sole purpose. They are never to be shown or used in attack. The majority of daggers or Kirpans as they are called are not functional anyway - you cannot pull them out of their sheath.
There are some members of the community who wear a smaller version of the Kirpan, almost like an icon around their neck on a black thread - this is ok but its not going to be much use if you need one
On the other hand I can see what people are saying abobut we have to assimilate to the British way of life - in defence of this I would like to point out that as a Faith community we are probably the best integrated bunch around, there's been very little in the way of negative stuff about Sikhs and I've only heard of 1 story ever where a Kirpan was used in an attack.
I'm proud that as a community we've tried to mix into western society, sometimes taking certain values back into our own homes.
You'll see from my other posts that I'm the first person to moan when somebody takes it upon themselves to talk on 'our' behalf, thru to the removal of Xmas decorations, hot cross buns without crosses etc so please don't think this is completely one sided.
If somebody really wants to harm somebody then nothing you can do is going to stop them. I would, if I was in the position of the person who's been allowed to carry the dagger, think about a halfway-house where they can appease both the school whilst also adhering to the tenants of Sikhism but to say we should all p1ss off back to our country etc is just stupid, particularly where we've put into this country as much if not more than we've taken out.
Hope it all makes sense
jai
Speaking seriously for a moment, I'm all for respecting people's religious beliefs, but common sense and -of course- the law has to take precedence. Kids should not have access to weapons -of any size IHMO- regardless of their religious convictions and school is certainly no place for things that may be used in an offensive fashion. HOWEVER, that does not -and should not- mean that the Sikh faith is precluded from exercising its beliefs. In this case I see no reaon why individuals should not be permited to carry a decorative kirpan i.e. one that cannot be unsheathed, or some form of jewelery depicting a kirpan so that its symbolism can be recognised, which is what -if I understand it correctly- is important to Sikhs i.e. it is not important that they have a weapon to be able to defend the weak, but that it is understood that they will fight injustice, which is what the Kirpan represents. As such, there is little need for it to be an effective weapon, just a recognisable representation.
It's easy when people are rational, respectful and willing to listen!
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 03 March 2006 at 05:14 PM.
03 March 2006, 05:10 PM
#65
No worries bud, know it's not meant in an offensive way.
Just wanted to make a point as I'm a British Asian and also Sikh. Some people have a very blinkered view, not on here as such but generally and I just wanted to do my bit to put across both points of view. Daggers which are significant of something and a core part of somebody's faith are a world apart from bombs and terrorists
Just wanted to make a point as I'm a British Asian and also Sikh. Some people have a very blinkered view, not on here as such but generally and I just wanted to do my bit to put across both points of view. Daggers which are significant of something and a core part of somebody's faith are a world apart from bombs and terrorists
03 March 2006, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brendan Hughes
Thanks jai. As for the "**** off back", ignore it. The irony is the judgement was apparently in Canada, where Brits aren't exactly native.
03 March 2006, 05:14 PM
#67
New_Scooby_04 - spot on mate :thumbsup:
TBH I would be very surprised if the Kirpan is 'fully-functional' and can be unsheathed.
The Kirpan is part of the 5 symbols of SIkhism - hence the significance. When a Sikh is baptised they are required, as part of the Sikh COde of living to wear one at all times, together with a Comb, uncut hair and special under-shorts and also a kara (steel bracelet).
I hope we can all keep this civil educational and informative rather than a match which some of the other 'religious' threads turn into
TBH I would be very surprised if the Kirpan is 'fully-functional' and can be unsheathed.
The Kirpan is part of the 5 symbols of SIkhism - hence the significance. When a Sikh is baptised they are required, as part of the Sikh COde of living to wear one at all times, together with a Comb, uncut hair and special under-shorts and also a kara (steel bracelet).
I hope we can all keep this civil educational and informative rather than a match which some of the other 'religious' threads turn into
03 March 2006, 05:18 PM
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OllyK,
Quote 'So when guns were banned - what happened to gun crime, did it disapear over night or has it increased dramatically??'
No you're correct,my point was that maybe it would go down if more people were banged up for carrying weopons.
This current thinking that it's cool to carry a blade wouldn't last long if a few people were sent down for 5 years each & 10 years for a gun.This would not discourage the serious criminal & never will but would stop the idiots who like to pretend to be criminals and think it gives them cred.
Such draconian measures will never happen in our wonderful liberal country.
Also I know about carrying knives as tools of the trade & they are carried in a tool case most of the time & while your at your workplace not by some kid going to school or someone who has never had a job wandering around the shopping mall.I think the law can distinguish between those cases.
We need to get tough or our streets will end up like lovely liberal America.
Quote 'So when guns were banned - what happened to gun crime, did it disapear over night or has it increased dramatically??'
No you're correct,my point was that maybe it would go down if more people were banged up for carrying weopons.
This current thinking that it's cool to carry a blade wouldn't last long if a few people were sent down for 5 years each & 10 years for a gun.This would not discourage the serious criminal & never will but would stop the idiots who like to pretend to be criminals and think it gives them cred.
Such draconian measures will never happen in our wonderful liberal country.
Also I know about carrying knives as tools of the trade & they are carried in a tool case most of the time & while your at your workplace not by some kid going to school or someone who has never had a job wandering around the shopping mall.I think the law can distinguish between those cases.
We need to get tough or our streets will end up like lovely liberal America.
03 March 2006, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AudiLover
You have lost pride in your country???
Do you know how the economy works and how it would function if all of a sudden all the foreigners where kicked out.
Dont get me wrong I too would like to see less immigrants coming into the country cheapning our labour for only the buisness to prosper with a fatter cheque but a light BNP isnt the way. If the BNP came into power we would end up being a corrupt country. Waht we need is a combination of the tories and labour. Immigrations and ethnic diversion values of the tories and the working class favourably views of the labour party.
Do you know how the economy works and how it would function if all of a sudden all the foreigners where kicked out.
Dont get me wrong I too would like to see less immigrants coming into the country cheapning our labour for only the buisness to prosper with a fatter cheque but a light BNP isnt the way. If the BNP came into power we would end up being a corrupt country. Waht we need is a combination of the tories and labour. Immigrations and ethnic diversion values of the tories and the working class favourably views of the labour party.
03 March 2006, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by legb4rsk
OllyK,
Quote 'So when guns were banned - what happened to gun crime, did it disapear over night or has it increased dramatically??'
No you're correct,my point was that maybe it would go down if more people were banged up for carrying weopons.
This current thinking that it's cool to carry a blade wouldn't last long if a few people were sent down for 5 years each & 10 years for a gun.This would not discourage the serious criminal & never will but would stop the idiots who like to pretend to be criminals and think it gives them cred.
Such draconian measures will never happen in our wonderful liberal country.
Also I know about carrying knives as tools of the trade & they are carried in a tool case most of the time & while your at your workplace not by some kid going to school or someone who has never had a job wandering around the shopping mall.I think the law can distinguish between those cases.
We need to get tough or our streets will end up like lovely liberal America.
Quote 'So when guns were banned - what happened to gun crime, did it disapear over night or has it increased dramatically??'
No you're correct,my point was that maybe it would go down if more people were banged up for carrying weopons.
This current thinking that it's cool to carry a blade wouldn't last long if a few people were sent down for 5 years each & 10 years for a gun.This would not discourage the serious criminal & never will but would stop the idiots who like to pretend to be criminals and think it gives them cred.
Such draconian measures will never happen in our wonderful liberal country.
Also I know about carrying knives as tools of the trade & they are carried in a tool case most of the time & while your at your workplace not by some kid going to school or someone who has never had a job wandering around the shopping mall.I think the law can distinguish between those cases.
We need to get tough or our streets will end up like lovely liberal America.
03 March 2006, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
TBH I don't have an issue with anybody carrying a knife, I do however, have a very big issue if they decide to use it to harm or damage person or property.
The look of knife's is hugely intimidating.
What if somebody "illegitimate" gets the knife??
What if te person carrying the knife ges involved in a fight??
I really do hope that you are kidding.
03 March 2006, 06:51 PM
#72
Flippin eck, are the Sikhs next in the firing line, I suspect this is such a non event its not worth mentioning, if the thing ccant be used to injure then whats the problem, if it can then there is no way it should be in schools.
The Skih's I have me always seem to be good blokes, real good sense of humour like the ones I saw in Leeds in an Escort cabrio, done up to be/look like an RS Turbo, it said RS Turban on the back !
The Skih's I have me always seem to be good blokes, real good sense of humour like the ones I saw in Leeds in an Escort cabrio, done up to be/look like an RS Turbo, it said RS Turban on the back !
03 March 2006, 06:51 PM
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It may suprise you to know that baptised Sikhs in this country carry ceremonial kirpans. As Jai said though these are nonfunctional. A little education for the reactionary bigots:
1) Sikhism was created about 500 years ago. It was a warrior 'tribe' put together to defend 'India' from invading MUSLIM armies that wanted all Indians to convert to Islam
2) Sikhs have a military reputation and hence formed a large part of the army that helped defeat the *****. They fought on all fronts, Africa, Burma, Europe etc. Indeed at least one Victoria Cross has been awarded to a Sikh.
3) Despite this background we are a peaceful people. Unlike Christians/Muslims we have NEVER tried to force people to accept our beliefs. Unlike Christianity/Islam we do not think non believers will burn in hell etc
Wearing a kirpan is an essential part of being a baptised Sikh, even though now it is just symbolic. It is not the same as carrying semtex, bowie knives and whatever other nonsense was mentioned. Sikhs have carried them in western countries for the last 50 years without any bother.
Should this kid be allowed to carry a real functioning knive to school? Of course not. A symbolic, sealed or blunted one yes.Thing is you will not see 100000 sikhs across the world marching or rioting to support his right, because that is not the way we behave
Sikhs have integrated and embraced their host nations. We do not hate western values( especially not the drinking bit!)
Just because there are some sections of the community out there taking the **** don't label all of us. Sikhism is a peaceful, embracing, modern and non judgemental way of life.
1) Sikhism was created about 500 years ago. It was a warrior 'tribe' put together to defend 'India' from invading MUSLIM armies that wanted all Indians to convert to Islam
2) Sikhs have a military reputation and hence formed a large part of the army that helped defeat the *****. They fought on all fronts, Africa, Burma, Europe etc. Indeed at least one Victoria Cross has been awarded to a Sikh.
3) Despite this background we are a peaceful people. Unlike Christians/Muslims we have NEVER tried to force people to accept our beliefs. Unlike Christianity/Islam we do not think non believers will burn in hell etc
Wearing a kirpan is an essential part of being a baptised Sikh, even though now it is just symbolic. It is not the same as carrying semtex, bowie knives and whatever other nonsense was mentioned. Sikhs have carried them in western countries for the last 50 years without any bother.
Should this kid be allowed to carry a real functioning knive to school? Of course not. A symbolic, sealed or blunted one yes.Thing is you will not see 100000 sikhs across the world marching or rioting to support his right, because that is not the way we behave
Sikhs have integrated and embraced their host nations. We do not hate western values( especially not the drinking bit!)
Just because there are some sections of the community out there taking the **** don't label all of us. Sikhism is a peaceful, embracing, modern and non judgemental way of life.
03 March 2006, 07:28 PM
#76
Originally Posted by Deep Singh
It may suprise you to know that baptised Sikhs in this country carry ceremonial kirpans. As Jai said though these are nonfunctional. A little education for the reactionary bigots:
1) Sikhism was created about 500 years ago. It was a warrior 'tribe' put together to defend 'India' from invading MUSLIM armies that wanted all Indians to convert to Islam
2) Sikhs have a military reputation and hence formed a large part of the army that helped defeat the *****. They fought on all fronts, Africa, Burma, Europe etc. Indeed at least one Victoria Cross has been awarded to a Sikh.
3) Despite this background we are a peaceful people. Unlike Christians/Muslims we have NEVER tried to force people to accept our beliefs. Unlike Christianity/Islam we do not think non believers will burn in hell etc
Wearing a kirpan is an essential part of being a baptised Sikh, even though now it is just symbolic. It is not the same as carrying semtex, bowie knives and whatever other nonsense was mentioned. Sikhs have carried them in western countries for the last 50 years without any bother.
Should this kid be allowed to carry a real functioning knive to school? Of course not. A symbolic, sealed or blunted one yes.Thing is you will not see 100000 sikhs across the world marching or rioting to support his right, because that is not the way we behave
Sikhs have integrated and embraced their host nations. We do not hate western values( especially not the drinking bit!)
Just because there are some sections of the community out there taking the **** don't label all of us. Sikhism is a peaceful, embracing, modern and non judgemental way of life.
1) Sikhism was created about 500 years ago. It was a warrior 'tribe' put together to defend 'India' from invading MUSLIM armies that wanted all Indians to convert to Islam
2) Sikhs have a military reputation and hence formed a large part of the army that helped defeat the *****. They fought on all fronts, Africa, Burma, Europe etc. Indeed at least one Victoria Cross has been awarded to a Sikh.
3) Despite this background we are a peaceful people. Unlike Christians/Muslims we have NEVER tried to force people to accept our beliefs. Unlike Christianity/Islam we do not think non believers will burn in hell etc
Wearing a kirpan is an essential part of being a baptised Sikh, even though now it is just symbolic. It is not the same as carrying semtex, bowie knives and whatever other nonsense was mentioned. Sikhs have carried them in western countries for the last 50 years without any bother.
Should this kid be allowed to carry a real functioning knive to school? Of course not. A symbolic, sealed or blunted one yes.Thing is you will not see 100000 sikhs across the world marching or rioting to support his right, because that is not the way we behave
Sikhs have integrated and embraced their host nations. We do not hate western values( especially not the drinking bit!)
Just because there are some sections of the community out there taking the **** don't label all of us. Sikhism is a peaceful, embracing, modern and non judgemental way of life.
Suresh
(not of any religion if you must know)
03 March 2006, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StickyMicky
do people from pakistan not like being called "paki`s"?
is this the same as the majority of us lot being called "brits" ?
is this the same as the majority of us lot being called "brits" ?
are you serious?
paki is/was a negative term used against people for many many years in a country they were trying to live in.
how is "brit" the same.....or do you mean it has the same number of letters?
T....ps- couldnt care less about the issue but amazed at the stupidity.
03 March 2006, 08:04 PM
#81
No you cant !
Whatever that may have meant, it is nowadays a derogatory term, no need to use it, consign it to the history books, why make anyone feel uncomfortable or offended for the sake of it.
Sometimes for certain sections of society a reality check (and it isnt the Sikh community) is in order but a small harmless ceremonial dagger does not really compare with some of the **** going on nowadays, nobody has died at the hands of an Sikh schoolboy have they ?
Whatever that may have meant, it is nowadays a derogatory term, no need to use it, consign it to the history books, why make anyone feel uncomfortable or offended for the sake of it.
Sometimes for certain sections of society a reality check (and it isnt the Sikh community) is in order but a small harmless ceremonial dagger does not really compare with some of the **** going on nowadays, nobody has died at the hands of an Sikh schoolboy have they ?
03 March 2006, 08:10 PM
#82
Originally Posted by Markus
Wog, isn't that "Western Oriental Gentleman"?
and we even had golliwog on robinson's jam, until someone deemed that offensive ...!!
see J4CKO u dont even know what it meant, but feel free to jump in with 2 right feet.
love all the balanced recent posts, at last we have some sense from the sikh community...well done
03 March 2006, 08:33 PM
#84
Originally Posted by Markus
I remember the golliwog, a friends parents worked at robinsons and I used to have a collection of golliwog tie pins.
oh and if you ahve a leather piano tie as well, loose that cos its a crime against fashion
03 March 2006, 09:46 PM
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When did this thread become about the terms ******/paki/wog etc? The thread was about a Sikh schoolboy. Why are you going off on a tangent? I'd suggest starting another thread to discuss this if you feel it interesting and useful.
ps Jai, you are right. Baptised Sikhs don't drink alcohol, good thing I'm an atheist!!!
ps Jai, you are right. Baptised Sikhs don't drink alcohol, good thing I'm an atheist!!!
03 March 2006, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SwissTony
well get rid of them immediately, just in case you offend some minority
03 March 2006, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Markus
Nah, think I'll wear them with pride, on my union jack t-shirt, with my red braces, blue denin jeans, red DM's and my newly shaved head
04 March 2006, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
are you serious?
paki is/was a negative term used against people for many many years in a country they were trying to live in.
how is "brit" the same.....or do you mean it has the same number of letters?
T....ps- couldnt care less about the issue but amazed at the stupidity.
paki is/was a negative term used against people for many many years in a country they were trying to live in.
how is "brit" the same.....or do you mean it has the same number of letters?
T....ps- couldnt care less about the issue but amazed at the stupidity.