911

The Impreza needs (generally) a thicker bar in the rear to the front for a good effect.
22/22 or 24/24 will not suit the car or driver imho as the car will certainly tend to understeer.
For me, the proven stock/22: 22/24 combinations is very very good as the car move to a very neutral 'stance' when pushed yet still keep the easy safe control that flatters a driver (certainly me) skill.

I like tweeking chassis more than engines, and when Whiteline gave me the roll centre mod with 27mm bar I couldn't resist.
Several learned people who I technically respect greatly questioned this 'new' position, but a company such as Whiteline are experts in chassis and especially Imprezas. They would never market anything sub standard.

As they say in all their data sheets, drive carefully before driving hard to allow time / miles to aquanit yourself with the new chassis as it will behave differently. This kit is no different, but the change is not that great to the 22/24 setup.

Interesting susbject though isn't it?

I have a new 24mm front bar too, and the roll centre mod/24/24 set-up could be interesting.
One thing is noticeable is the roll on Rob's hillclimber is less than mine.
Rob is on softer springs and 22/24/stock roll centre.

ZEN Performance

The roll centre mod is really quite subtle, and depending on your ride height, it's not going to mean you can go up massively in front bar thickness as you have Graham. You have completely ignored the effects of the diffs in your assesment of your car, and in doing so the most important piece of the puzzle has been overlooked.

cmpequeno

sorry for another stupid question, but tire height can't reduce roll?
you use 205/45/16 and 215/4017?
rob uses 205/40/17 that's a lower tire than yours ( not much, but... )
sorry, jut shooting questions

911

Carlos: Yes, you are correct, I have cross-ply tyres and Rob has radial, and I'm sure this makes a difference to the 'feel' or balance.

Paul:
Thanks for the comments, all thought provoking.

I totally agree the mod is subtle, and i have missed one adjustment out of the front geometry that Job has told me about. A job for July.
By the diff you must mean the dccd?

Some pages ago I said i wanted to arrange a test morning again at the sprint track where it is so easy to try things in as consistant a way as possible.
John F did a great job of everything but also the sensitivity of the dccd position.
It is near impossible to see the difference of the dccd on the road (or the way/places I can drive the car) and to try on the practice day of a hill climb is crazy (2 maybe 3 runs max)

The 27mm bar came with the kit from Whiteline as a suggested starter.
The difference in the current system is not so great to the 22/24 'classic' system.
I have done better PB's at every dry meeting this year, but I'm sure that is my slow adjustment to the slicks. I know I annoy you most of the time with these changes, but I have no other way this year to try to progress trying to keep up with the others.

Graham.

cmpequeno

another question

those crazy wide tires the americans use in auto-x, wouldnt be good for hill climbing?

in some new age cars there are guys using 275 tires in a 8 width wheel...

cmpequeno

be good for grip... I know they are a lot heavier but in your case, a lightweight wheel like oz superlegera or ultralegera and kosei K1 ( just know these ) with a wider tire like 215 or 225/35/17 ( to keep the smaler radius ) wouldn't that be best?
I keep insisting in the tires don't I?

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Sorry Graham, I have to call you up on this one and raise you one ALK (Anti-Lift Kit) that turned out to be a POS (Piece of ****) when Whiteline eventually had to admit that it did not do perform as described...

911

That's ok Tim, good conversation about it all from all; I can do that.

Way back I used the ALK with the 22/24 bars in my early chassis days and a set-up by a very well known EVO supplier to Whiteline settings.
Car was on Toyo's as the class was allowed only list 1A's.

The car was (IMHO/experience) better than stock, but the understeer was still awful (on a hillclimb), great on the road though.

Being lazy, I left them on when the AST's came along and all the poly bushes etc.
With the top mounts then in place the castor they gave made the small addition of the ALK look a bit marginal but I got poly bushes for 'free'.

The road spec (yellow bushes) add a huge amount of friction to the front end as the bushes bind due to mis-alignment, but all seems well overall.

I agree the ALK is not the answer to an Impreza driver's dream, but I don't think they say they are?

Away from the ALK, the other Whiteline parts I have (paid for and free) all work well to me.

Rob's hillclimber has the Whiteline parts (don't know about the ALK) and his car is a gem (yes, I know about the struts!)

Graham

ZEN Performance

What I am getting at Graham, is that the 24/22 setup was probably right for your car on 1As with the old diffs. The front, centre and rear diffs all play a part in the handling of the car, and you can't just go using a spring/bar setup for one diff configuration and hope that it will work with every diff setup.

I don't get as much time as i would like to tinker with Rob's car, but each step is small and we have made improvements with each event. I have the roll centre kit on my car (amoung other things) and hold them in stock, so I suspect that will be the next step on Rob's car, and/or a possible change of ARBs. But each time we are trying to dial out/in a paticular handling trait to improve the car. Diving in at the deep end when you have an established setup is foolhardy IMHO when championship points are at stake. I am learning things about my car in timeattack and applying them to Rob's and vice-versa.

As you're finding, just getting used to more grip isn't easy. More grip is harder to drive at the limit than less grip, as often the limit comes without warning and the consequences are bigger. So you're going to go faster each time as you get used to each of the hills/sprints with more grip.

FWIW a 27mm front bar is going to be around 65% stiffer than a 22mm one (depending on mount and link stiffness).

911

OK, thanks again Paul for the advice and thoughts.

There is little to struggle for on the points side!

This year will be consigned to fooling about to see what is good/bad in my usual way.
I am not as focused as you and Rob as I do not see the stakes as high. This is why you push so well together.
It is different today for me to when I started 15 years ago!

But, if I'm on a poor route why would you consider sending yours and Robs cars down similar routes?

I do appreciate your input, and I'm a little surprised you share this with me/Snet but maybe a test morning with all the roll bars could be fruitful and follow the 22/24, the 24/24 and the 27/24 routes.

I felt the 22/24/middle hole bars with the roll centre kit was not so good as the 27/24 hard hole.

I need to tweek the front ride height now.

Graham.

I will be perfectly happy to strip it all off if the changes send me backwards.
So far they havn't.

ZEN Performance

All I'm sharing is the method. Unless all elements are the same the end result will be different depending on the cars. I am pleased to see that one element of your car in paticular hasn't been influenced by "experts", I'll leave it to you to figure out what that is.

I think you also need to acknowledge your own achievements too. You're pulling better times each month, and are light years ahead of this time last year.

Brit_in_Japan

Graham, did you get my PM a few days ago?

Blademaster

Hi Graham,

Can I jump the thread with a question on fuel surge/starvation.

My RA STi never suffered at Curborough, Llandow or Mira.

This WRX does. At Shelsley it lost power on last right hander, I was managing 84mph over the line, but it was spluttering for some time before it picked its feet up.

Also at Curborough, double lapper on the hairpin it spluttered for half way up the straight. I have swapped the RA fuel pump, filter and engine with whole injection kit. Also fitted the RA Apexi Power FC. Only thing I didnt swap was the RA fuel tank.

Do you have any words of wisdom on this? I have run half full of fuel and still had the problem. How has your car functioned?

Thanks, John

vulnax999

iTrader: (7)

Is there an STI anti fuel surge device ( box around the pump filter bag ) on the filter end of the fuel pump, which contains some fuel even if at low fuel & it sloshes around away from pump pick up on corners ... Spec C's have this type of thing and I think I read some STi's have too?

WRX don't!

911

Brit: No! Please send again.
Blade: I have suffered from fuel starvation at times, and run at least 1/3rd of a tank everywhere, usually much more.
Rob has the same prob in his RA.
TBH I'm not sure a 1/3rd of a tank of fuel really makes that much difference, but a dose of stavation completely wrecks a run.

Vulnax is correct; a simple box around the pick-up point will cure it all.

Graham.

911

A short break from the Impreza for July saw me hillclimb the 911 for the first time in 5 years at a VERY wet Shelsley.

Eventually took 5th in a class of 30 odd pre 1980 sports cars, and I was on list 1A road tyres, the rest infront of me on 1B or slicks, so chuffed.

The difference between the 1973 911 and my Impreza is just huge, I cannot believe how slow the 911 is; everything seems to take 2 x longer to get there/happen!

Great fun, and well worth the grief I've had this week with it.

Some pics and vids:
My Class mate, but which is weraing the right paint?

One of my favorites there, built as a Brooklands racer in 1935

Bloody quick this one!

Wet...
DropShots Day
Wetter...
DropShots Day
Ready for the first run, in the wet/damp
DropShots Day

Prescott next weekend on the saturday...maybe dry?

mctaff

Out of interest, are the results for hillclimbs posted anywhere straight after the event? I'm used to rallying and most decent sized events now have a live results service. It's got to be the way to go to help make the sport more popular.

The reason I ask is that our club chairman put 3 Mini's out at the weekend and it would be good to be able to access information.

911

And they all did well!

Shelsley Walsh put their results up on thier site on the day.
Loton do too, but slower.
Harewood hillclimb have done it for ages so do Barbon Manor.

The use of internet is really good for all the motorsport forms/admin etc, but not everyone can or will embrace it.
Be careful of assuming everyone has internet as they certainly do not.

Seems there will be 2 Epynt hillclimbs in 2008.

Bloody great I say!

mctaff

All being well, we'll take things gently to start. We need some tin top or Caterham type championships if any series co-ordinators are interested. Single seaters are a dream at the moment unless we get gifted some armco and permission to fit it!

911

Contact the Porche Owners Club in the Cotswolds.
They have a huge hillclimb championship going and are a very enthusiastic bunch.
You could get an easy 20 or 30 entries from them!

Graham.

mctaff

I did make a contact before the event but I'm not sure if they are up for it. Watch this space!

911

Did you talk to Steve Kevlin?

Brit_in_Japan

The organiser of the TVR Owner's Club hill climb championship is "very interested", we need to get in touch with him when we have some dates.

911

Seems a long time ago when I last put something onto this thread, so here goes (assuming anyone is still following it!)

The Hillclimb season is divided into 2 for this summer as I only do 10 events a year, but I did a Classic Car meeting in the 911 which was great to say the least in the break: nostalgia rules!

Back to a more serious note though, the Championship meetings have resumed this weekend.

The class was a bit depleted, but the usual classmates were there and the weather was great.

I am very sure Rob will tell his stories on his thread, but it was an astounding run Rob, and you got your just rewards. Well done.

My weekend was not so hot.

Practice day went well, and I had made some changes to the suspension of the car hoping things would be more predictable, and indeed they were, and a personal best was the result of 57.81, at long last out of the 58's!

Pity it happened on practice day, but that happens to many a hillclimber.

Race day today dawned well, and I hoped to build on the 57 and get a bit deeper....

No chance.

Did I ever try harder but the speed just did not arrive on the clocks, and the brakes were challenging as the rears locked-up alarmingly at 90 mph. People repeatedly telling me so did not help much either!
A tweek to the bias valve eased things but still the times were cr@p.

Have to say it has been very depressing, and Rob's time I find humilliating tbh, so character building stuff which I'm getting tired of!

4th in class, so all that effort for 2 points I think, but I've finally learnt that the car has a bit to do with results, the driver an awful lot.
DropShots.com

Just what to do now?

Graham.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Graham, I think you need a 2.5's torque and 450-500 horses to compete with the rest of them as the competition has moved a step on from 360/380 laggy ish 20g, well on a 2ltr.

Andy

911

It is so that Rob has 440 ish, so about 80 bhp on top of my antique and some torque too, but my daughter watched his run up the straight at Loton, and I don't think I can drive any car like that.
Time for careful thought yet again.

pete26

Chin up graham mate more power and some weight out of your car would see you go much much quicker! everyone but rob seemed go be slower on race day audi's, me, my dad came off as you know, the bmw, so maybe that bit of rain changed the track conditions rob drove like he stole the thing and it all came together you cant do many of those through the season. I think some B meets would be good aswell, it keeps you intrested and sharp dont forget rob was out at the liverpool meet getting some good 12 runs under his belt these things make the difference!

911

Good try Pete!

I have lost a lot of interest over the 6 weeks off. I didn't even spot I did a PB till Trish told me this morning which sums it all up.
At the start of 2007 I said I'll give it this year and there are just 3 meets to go now, then decision time!
It's getting a bit 'always the same' kind of thing tbh.

Maybe Prescott will be better, but thanks for the comments.

cmpequeno

hi graham,

just fit the 2.5 when you can ( I know, you probably think in this in every meet??? )

911

Yes, the big engine is the best way forward Carlos, but even then, all the work/$$$ will not close the gap tightly enough.
Maybe just a change is needed?

I know that if I take a year off I won't want to go back to it!

Time to sleep on it.