Searching for the perfect Chassis
19 June 2007, 01:15 PM
#1232
The 27mm front with the roll center mod parts and the 24 on stiffest hole is good, but the rear can feel looser, or even if the car is rolling more at the rear. I do not know for sure, but i feel the rear wheel is sat back on the ground where it wasn't before.
I intend to try something on the hill at Prescott this weekend:
1
As it is 27Fr /24 Rr + rollcenter mod
2
22 front + 24Rr + roll centre mod.
I know the hill very well and the weathe seems to be stable I think, so all things are 'equal'
I hope i can be too.
I intend to try something on the hill at Prescott this weekend:
1
As it is 27Fr /24 Rr + rollcenter mod
2
22 front + 24Rr + roll centre mod.
I know the hill very well and the weathe seems to be stable I think, so all things are 'equal'
I hope i can be too.
19 June 2007, 08:16 PM
#1234
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The 27mm front with the roll center mod parts and the 24 on stiffest hole is good, but the rear can feel looser, or even if the car is rolling more at the rear. I do not know for sure, but i feel the rear wheel is sat back on the ground where it wasn't before.
I intend to try something on the hill at Prescott this weekend:
1
As it is 27Fr /24 Rr + rollcenter mod
2
22 front + 24Rr + roll centre mod.
I know the hill very well and the weathe seems to be stable I think, so all things are 'equal'
I hope i can be too.
I intend to try something on the hill at Prescott this weekend:
1
As it is 27Fr /24 Rr + rollcenter mod
2
22 front + 24Rr + roll centre mod.
I know the hill very well and the weathe seems to be stable I think, so all things are 'equal'
I hope i can be too.
19 June 2007, 08:48 PM
#1235
Simple.
The 'old set-up' on a hill I know very well to compare 'pre-mod' times to what I can muster as well as the feel of the car.
Go to the current set-up and compare the car 2 hours later.
So far the novel set-up (I think it is anyway) is proving to be good, I've done personal bests awith a 'weak' engine.
Paul:
I've said it a long time ago, this year is competivly dead for me.
My goal is to find PB's at every dry meeting and to try new venues.
Trying different things on the car, esp suspension I find interesting, if a little bizzar to you and several others. I get more value from the car this way as I certainly cannot keep up with Rob and Pete.(at minimum)
At Epynt hillclimb the car was superb, and that's with a crappy driver.
That track is nothing like any other hillclimb I've driven before with 4 to 6 foot ditches either side with rocks and trees. The car was just superbly stable and full of direction and control.
2nd FTD in a field of 70 cars, half being wild Mk2 Escorts and more let alone the Darrian says this Big Bar suspension can't be all bad. The engine is back to it's old self, so might have 360ish again which will compare to last years car well.
At the end of it all I will find the setting that suits me best as Rob has, and now Pete. We are all different. I simply do not have their nerve!
10 years ago I nailed my 230 bhp 911 as hard as they run 420 4x4 Imprezas now. Been there etc etc.
You have told me before, ''Experiment''! Exactly what I think I'm doing with some expert help too.
Thanks for taking an interest though!
Graham.
Carlos:
The car had 22mm front and 24mm medium hole rear. Very nice set-up imho.
It now has 27mm front and 24mm hard hole rear, every bit as good but far more predictable putting the power on out of a curve. This is with the addition of the Roll-Centre mod from Whiteline too though.
I trust you are well, havn't heard from you for a while.
Graham.
The 'old set-up' on a hill I know very well to compare 'pre-mod' times to what I can muster as well as the feel of the car.
Go to the current set-up and compare the car 2 hours later.
So far the novel set-up (I think it is anyway) is proving to be good, I've done personal bests awith a 'weak' engine.
Paul:
I've said it a long time ago, this year is competivly dead for me.
My goal is to find PB's at every dry meeting and to try new venues.
Trying different things on the car, esp suspension I find interesting, if a little bizzar to you and several others. I get more value from the car this way as I certainly cannot keep up with Rob and Pete.(at minimum)
At Epynt hillclimb the car was superb, and that's with a crappy driver.
That track is nothing like any other hillclimb I've driven before with 4 to 6 foot ditches either side with rocks and trees. The car was just superbly stable and full of direction and control.
2nd FTD in a field of 70 cars, half being wild Mk2 Escorts and more let alone the Darrian says this Big Bar suspension can't be all bad. The engine is back to it's old self, so might have 360ish again which will compare to last years car well.
At the end of it all I will find the setting that suits me best as Rob has, and now Pete. We are all different. I simply do not have their nerve!
10 years ago I nailed my 230 bhp 911 as hard as they run 420 4x4 Imprezas now. Been there etc etc.
You have told me before, ''Experiment''! Exactly what I think I'm doing with some expert help too.
Thanks for taking an interest though!
Graham.
Carlos:
The car had 22mm front and 24mm medium hole rear. Very nice set-up imho.
It now has 27mm front and 24mm hard hole rear, every bit as good but far more predictable putting the power on out of a curve. This is with the addition of the Roll-Centre mod from Whiteline too though.
I trust you are well, havn't heard from you for a while.
Graham.
Last edited by 911; 19 June 2007 at 08:52 PM.
19 June 2007, 09:04 PM
#1236
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I trust you are well, havn't heard from you for a while.
now I'm nagging other people and giving you some slack
but don't worry already have some questions for you ( if you had an hotmail account I could bother you every day just ask rob and rich )
20 June 2007, 12:04 AM
#1238
Are the parts for the roll centre mod available to us mere mortals, ( PS ? ) via the usual outlets ? My ball joints maybe tired so why not try these!
Stiffer front a/r bar - more understeer? Stiffer rear a/r bar, less rear grip / less understeer?
That's what I found with my 22mm front, 24mm adj rear ( 3 hole blade )... with rear only ( std front ) car was super handling, no understeer, but added front one later and back to some understeer! Really should try smaller front bar ...
N
Stiffer front a/r bar - more understeer? Stiffer rear a/r bar, less rear grip / less understeer?
That's what I found with my 22mm front, 24mm adj rear ( 3 hole blade )... with rear only ( std front ) car was super handling, no understeer, but added front one later and back to some understeer! Really should try smaller front bar ...
N
20 June 2007, 07:00 AM
#1241
Vulnax:
From a mortal to a mortal:
http://i14.tinypic.com/6h5usr9.jpg
imho:
Chassis tuning is made to the driver's taste.
What is good to me, may be terrible to you.
To kill understeer you need a lot more than roll bars (whatever size)
Convention should always be challenged, otherwise there is no progress.
For many the 22/24 or stock/22 combo is great. Nothing wrong with that.
I am trying to make the chassis work harder and harder so I can get/use the most from my modest 360 bhp.
It gets harder to go much further now!
Many say the suspension can be improved by spending more on the 'latest' but there are things that happen racing the car, a fluffed gearchange for example, that will negate the advantage on a hill climb the latest expensive units will give over my current spec.
Growingly, it is me, the so-called-driver, which is the chassis' limiter!
Good fun though, and I'm pleased some find the saga interesting.
Graham
From a mortal to a mortal:
http://i14.tinypic.com/6h5usr9.jpg
imho:
Chassis tuning is made to the driver's taste.
What is good to me, may be terrible to you.
To kill understeer you need a lot more than roll bars (whatever size)
Convention should always be challenged, otherwise there is no progress.
For many the 22/24 or stock/22 combo is great. Nothing wrong with that.
I am trying to make the chassis work harder and harder so I can get/use the most from my modest 360 bhp.
It gets harder to go much further now!
Many say the suspension can be improved by spending more on the 'latest' but there are things that happen racing the car, a fluffed gearchange for example, that will negate the advantage on a hill climb the latest expensive units will give over my current spec.
Growingly, it is me, the so-called-driver, which is the chassis' limiter!
Good fun though, and I'm pleased some find the saga interesting.
Graham
20 June 2007, 08:50 AM
#1242
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Hi,
The notion that a thicker front arb increases understeer and a thicker rear arb increase oversteer is slightly short sighted imo.
To determine whether a vehicle needs more or less roll resistance to dial out understeer or oversteer, you need to determine if the car rolls of it's grip, washes of it's grip or if the instability is induced by the driver being not smooth enough.
My own Sti was suffering from a fair amount of roll understeer and roll oversteer. As it had reasonably sticky tyres , the tendency to roll was more than if had been fitted with some low grip tyres.
In simple terms, to get the roll resistance right for the chassis, tyres and driver, I treated it as a rear wheel drive vehicle as the Sti is more rwd orientated. I started going up on front roll resistance. The vehicle gained more and more front end grip, until I went to far and the front end started to wash out on turn in.
The result of going up on front roll resistance was that the diagonal roll was reduced as well. This increased rear traction to level that the car was 'going in the direction that rear wheels were pointing' when powering out of the corner. Now I started to use the rear arb to 'trim' the balance. By increasing the rear arb, I induced a small amount of inside rear wheel slip, to allow the car to be pushed round the corner.
This is putting it very simple because alignment, damper valving, cog, rc, rake etc. all have a part to play. There is no one right way to set up a chassis for fast lap times. This is just one way to get to a reasonable result fairly quickly.
So, increasing front ARB size increases understeer? No, quite often the opposite.
cheers
The notion that a thicker front arb increases understeer and a thicker rear arb increase oversteer is slightly short sighted imo.
To determine whether a vehicle needs more or less roll resistance to dial out understeer or oversteer, you need to determine if the car rolls of it's grip, washes of it's grip or if the instability is induced by the driver being not smooth enough.
My own Sti was suffering from a fair amount of roll understeer and roll oversteer. As it had reasonably sticky tyres , the tendency to roll was more than if had been fitted with some low grip tyres.
In simple terms, to get the roll resistance right for the chassis, tyres and driver, I treated it as a rear wheel drive vehicle as the Sti is more rwd orientated. I started going up on front roll resistance. The vehicle gained more and more front end grip, until I went to far and the front end started to wash out on turn in.
The result of going up on front roll resistance was that the diagonal roll was reduced as well. This increased rear traction to level that the car was 'going in the direction that rear wheels were pointing' when powering out of the corner. Now I started to use the rear arb to 'trim' the balance. By increasing the rear arb, I induced a small amount of inside rear wheel slip, to allow the car to be pushed round the corner.
This is putting it very simple because alignment, damper valving, cog, rc, rake etc. all have a part to play. There is no one right way to set up a chassis for fast lap times. This is just one way to get to a reasonable result fairly quickly.
So, increasing front ARB size increases understeer? No, quite often the opposite.
cheers
20 June 2007, 12:46 PM
#1243
I have followed this advice from Job (he is the UK Whiteline Agent) and the trimming he speaks of using the rear bar certainly DID work with the 27 on the front. (the 27 is on softest hole)
The rear end does indeed follow through.
I started on soft hole and the rear lagged the front.
Middle it was better, and hardest it is great.
I might try a 27 to the rear and see where that will take ME; as he says, it is the set-up for the driver that determines the final components/settings.
All this could be less than perfect for someone else.
The rear end does indeed follow through.
I started on soft hole and the rear lagged the front.
Middle it was better, and hardest it is great.
I might try a 27 to the rear and see where that will take ME; as he says, it is the set-up for the driver that determines the final components/settings.
All this could be less than perfect for someone else.
20 June 2007, 12:52 PM
#1244
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Hi Graham,
Before trying a 27mm rear bar (might be a touch too big and therefore reduce rear grip), I would try a couple of clicks reduction on low speed bump and 1 click reduction on rebound on the rear dampers to allow a touch more suspension movement to calm the car down a bit.........
Cheers
Before trying a 27mm rear bar (might be a touch too big and therefore reduce rear grip), I would try a couple of clicks reduction on low speed bump and 1 click reduction on rebound on the rear dampers to allow a touch more suspension movement to calm the car down a bit.........
Cheers
20 June 2007, 10:05 PM
#1245
Hi JGevers
You certainly seem to know what you are talking about, and if you are the chap Graham mentions, you do a good job!! ( no pun intended!! )
I know what I mean but lack the proper terms for it! I undestand your tech description though.
My wagon WRX washed out a bit as std, then with rear 24mm Whiteline a/r bar and PU bushes, links, was neutral and drove very well, great grip.
Fitting the 22mm front a/r bar, more "wash out" than standard especially on adverse camber corners.
Since I bought them "I am going to use them" (!! although could now change them .. ) despite my feelingsof the lower grip/understeer in certain types of corner. The a/r bars both worked at increasing roll resistance so was happy with them most of the time.
Suspension was OEM WRX 1995 wagon JDM, then JDM Sti4 ( saloon ) with STi top mounts, prodrive alignment settigns, full front PU bushing and then ALK and bump-steer mod.
Steers, handles and drives generally fine now but I am sure there is more I could do to keep it better planted ...as Graham says!.
AST coil overs sat here, adjustable front ( and rear! ta Graham for the tip ) top mounts likely, maybe adjustable arms at rear or at least finish off the PU bushing.
( after I get the gearbox rebuild.)
All help welcome!
Cheers
Graham - of course we find your exploits interesting.
You certainly seem to know what you are talking about, and if you are the chap Graham mentions, you do a good job!! ( no pun intended!! )
I know what I mean but lack the proper terms for it! I undestand your tech description though.
My wagon WRX washed out a bit as std, then with rear 24mm Whiteline a/r bar and PU bushes, links, was neutral and drove very well, great grip.
Fitting the 22mm front a/r bar, more "wash out" than standard especially on adverse camber corners.
Since I bought them "I am going to use them" (!! although could now change them .. ) despite my feelingsof the lower grip/understeer in certain types of corner. The a/r bars both worked at increasing roll resistance so was happy with them most of the time.
Suspension was OEM WRX 1995 wagon JDM, then JDM Sti4 ( saloon ) with STi top mounts, prodrive alignment settigns, full front PU bushing and then ALK and bump-steer mod.
Steers, handles and drives generally fine now but I am sure there is more I could do to keep it better planted ...as Graham says!.
AST coil overs sat here, adjustable front ( and rear! ta Graham for the tip ) top mounts likely, maybe adjustable arms at rear or at least finish off the PU bushing.
( after I get the gearbox rebuild.)
All help welcome!
Cheers
Graham - of course we find your exploits interesting.
Last edited by vulnax999; 20 June 2007 at 10:06 PM. Reason: spelling!
23 June 2007, 07:38 PM
#1247
So:
Prescott practice saturday...
Changed the damping and the front roll bar to the 22mm set-up as the forecast was WET to say the least.
And, of course it was not!
Took the first run at full chat and the car was wayward to say the least, but delivered a good 47'sec run (pb = 46.88) and a few lurid slides. ( )
Cahnged the front bar back to the Big 27mm jobbie and the rear 24mm bar to hard (from medium) hole.
Went out again in the same dry conditions, and the car was so much nicer to drive (I returned the damping to 'Epynt' settings also) and curt a nice solid 46.98. There is a split time along the hill about half-way, and I was the fastest in the class to that point.
As ever the EVO is fast let alone the other Harriman!
It will be a tough race day tomorrow. It absolutly p!ssed down for the third practice run and I decided to go home instead in glorious sunshine and tranquility of my new A4.
The car is running really well now with the API down pipe, the home brewed damping settings thanks to suspension mapper John F, and I feel very 'at-one' with the car.
Someone asked if I would swop it for a hot Caterham....
Hoping for good weather tomorrow so I don't have to fight it out on list 1A tyres.....
Graham.
Some vid shots for you:
Rob and I , same time, same place!
DropShots Day
DropShots Day
Prescott practice saturday...
Changed the damping and the front roll bar to the 22mm set-up as the forecast was WET to say the least.
And, of course it was not!
Took the first run at full chat and the car was wayward to say the least, but delivered a good 47'sec run (pb = 46.88) and a few lurid slides. (
)Cahnged the front bar back to the Big 27mm jobbie and the rear 24mm bar to hard (from medium) hole.
Went out again in the same dry conditions, and the car was so much nicer to drive (I returned the damping to 'Epynt' settings also) and curt a nice solid 46.98. There is a split time along the hill about half-way, and I was the fastest in the class to that point.
As ever the EVO is fast let alone the other Harriman!
It will be a tough race day tomorrow. It absolutly p!ssed down for the third practice run and I decided to go home instead in glorious sunshine and tranquility of my new A4.
The car is running really well now with the API down pipe, the home brewed damping settings thanks to suspension mapper John F, and I feel very 'at-one' with the car.
Someone asked if I would swop it for a hot Caterham....
Hoping for good weather tomorrow so I don't have to fight it out on list 1A tyres.....
Graham.
Some vid shots for you:
Rob and I , same time, same place!
DropShots Day
DropShots Day
Last edited by 911; 23 June 2007 at 08:21 PM.
24 June 2007, 01:39 AM
#1248
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Hi graham, nice vids.
again, I'll ask you this question. why don't you try some 17" tyres with lightweight wheels? or at least a wider tyre to get more grip...
again, I'll ask you this question. why don't you try some 17" tyres with lightweight wheels? or at least a wider tyre to get more grip...
24 June 2007, 06:34 AM
#1249
With the rain that is pouring down right now I will be on 17'' P1 rims and road tyres.
Today will be about the lower powered cars getting the better as they will be far easier to drive.
Not sure if i should run on the (light) slicks or not...
There is little choice here for a wider tyre as slicks, I'm already at 215 and getting close to the coil overs.
Graham
Today will be about the lower powered cars getting the better as they will be far easier to drive.
Not sure if i should run on the (light) slicks or not...
There is little choice here for a wider tyre as slicks, I'm already at 215 and getting close to the coil overs.
Graham
24 June 2007, 08:23 PM
#1251
For this year Geoff it is a stock Type R box and ratios, very nice they are too!
It also has the dccd which is now helping me, but not the huge improvement I was hoping for to be honest.
Race day today, and god, was it ever wet this morning. Been a long long time since it was so bloody wet!
Went out on the road tyres, the Huge roll bar up front and the rear bar hard as possible, and the car flew!
Stood 2nd in class at that time.
Did a number of intense rain dances, but the track started to dry...
The second runs were a bit 'iffy' and I was too lazy to re-fit the slicks, wish I had, as Rob stormed past me and took 4th in class, about 0.3 seconds ahead.
Roy in his EVO was 3rd, Rob's brother a mighty 2nd with a killa run on his Kumho's, god he was fast, and then the Audi V8 did his stuff, and stuffed us all!
I am a bit dissapointed in myself for being so lazy.
The car was pretty difficult in the 'damp' conditions where I ran a full 1.1 seconds faster than in the sopping wet.
In the absolute wet the suspension was great, full of control, easy to correct rapid slides and under/over steer, but in the damp, it was a whole lot harder!
Felt a bit like a rally driver 'fighting ' it.
I wish I had put the slicks back on as I was in the mood to chase Rob and even Roy. Pete was on a mission to blow us ALL out, and nearly did it too.
The Audi's last run was a bit contentious (sp) to us, but that's racin'!
Damp run for me and Pete:
Pete:
DropShots Day
Me:
DropShots Day
Lost Rob along the way.
July sees a real rest as I race the glorious 911 after a retirement of 5 years.
So looking forward to racing the Old Girl!
How can you not just fall in Love with her?
Graham.
It also has the dccd which is now helping me, but not the huge improvement I was hoping for to be honest.
Race day today, and god, was it ever wet this morning. Been a long long time since it was so bloody wet!
Went out on the road tyres, the Huge roll bar up front and the rear bar hard as possible, and the car flew!
Stood 2nd in class at that time.
Did a number of intense rain dances, but the track started to dry...
The second runs were a bit 'iffy' and I was too lazy to re-fit the slicks, wish I had, as Rob stormed past me and took 4th in class, about 0.3 seconds ahead.
Roy in his EVO was 3rd, Rob's brother a mighty 2nd with a killa run on his Kumho's, god he was fast, and then the Audi V8 did his stuff, and stuffed us all!
I am a bit dissapointed in myself for being so lazy.
The car was pretty difficult in the 'damp' conditions where I ran a full 1.1 seconds faster than in the sopping wet.
In the absolute wet the suspension was great, full of control, easy to correct rapid slides and under/over steer, but in the damp, it was a whole lot harder!
Felt a bit like a rally driver 'fighting ' it.
I wish I had put the slicks back on as I was in the mood to chase Rob and even Roy. Pete was on a mission to blow us ALL out, and nearly did it too.
The Audi's last run was a bit contentious (sp) to us, but that's racin'!
Damp run for me and Pete:
Pete:
DropShots Day
Me:
DropShots Day
Lost Rob along the way.
July sees a real rest as I race the glorious 911 after a retirement of 5 years.
So looking forward to racing the Old Girl!
How can you not just fall in Love with her?
Graham.
Last edited by 911; 24 June 2007 at 08:27 PM.
24 June 2007, 10:25 PM
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The second runs were a bit 'iffy' and I was too lazy to re-fit the slicks, wish I had, as Rob stormed past me and took 4th in class, about 0.3 seconds ahead.
Roy in his EVO was 3rd, Rob's brother a mighty 2nd with a killa run on his Kumho's, god he was fast, and then the Audi V8 did his stuff, and stuffed us all!
I am a bit dissapointed in myself for being so lazy.
The car was pretty difficult in the 'damp' conditions where I ran a full 1.1 seconds faster than in the sopping wet.
In the absolute wet the suspension was great, full of control, easy to correct rapid slides and under/over steer, but in the damp, it was a whole lot harder!
Felt a bit like a rally driver 'fighting ' it.
I wish I had put the slicks back on as I was in the mood to chase Rob and even Roy. Pete was on a mission to blow us ALL out, and nearly did it too.
.
I might come up and watch some of the classic meets so keep us posted when your getting the 911 out mate.
Last edited by rob4620; 24 June 2007 at 10:37 PM.
25 June 2007, 12:29 AM
#1255
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Graham,
You're change between 22 and 27mm front bars is MASSIVE. Have you not tried the 24mm bar? Interestingly your car has noticeably more roll than Robs, and he was using softer ARBs in the dry at Prescott.
You're change between 22 and 27mm front bars is MASSIVE. Have you not tried the 24mm bar? Interestingly your car has noticeably more roll than Robs, and he was using softer ARBs in the dry at Prescott.
25 June 2007, 07:18 AM
#1256
Oddly I do have a 24 front.
Got fed-up changing parts on the car due to the crap paddock conditions, and didn't have it with me either.
Might do another Curb private day if I can muster a few die-hards to share the cost.
Rob:
The 911 is entered in the July Shels and Prescott Classic meetings. Will be fun after the 4x4 and 5 years.
I say the slicks Rob as that is all I had as an alternative to the Zetas but you went faster!
Those Kumho's are killer in the wet, always were as Pete found out....
Got fed-up changing parts on the car due to the crap paddock conditions, and didn't have it with me either.
Might do another Curb private day if I can muster a few die-hards to share the cost.
Rob:
The 911 is entered in the July Shels and Prescott Classic meetings. Will be fun after the 4x4 and 5 years.
I say the slicks Rob as that is all I had as an alternative to the Zetas but you went faster!
Those Kumho's are killer in the wet, always were as Pete found out....
26 June 2007, 09:15 PM
#1257
02 July 2007, 03:16 AM
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Graham,
been checking nasioc and those guys prefer a larger front sway bar ( like you ) for auto-x, they say it's better than a larger rear sway bar ( don't know if they do hill climbing ).
I've always rad that a larger rear sway bar was better, now I'm getting confused...
been checking nasioc and those guys prefer a larger front sway bar ( like you ) for auto-x, they say it's better than a larger rear sway bar ( don't know if they do hill climbing ).
I've always rad that a larger rear sway bar was better, now I'm getting confused...
02 July 2007, 07:24 AM
#1259
Yep!
USA Autocrossing is very similar to the UK sprinting, generally on a flat course.
I've seen the USA threads too.
Just as you say, the convension is 22mm front/24mm back but 27/24 is very very different.
What i will say though is Whiteline sent me all the stuff to try 'in the real world' and this was the roll centre kit AND the 27mm front bar. They wanted the combination trying.
Wioth the stock ball joints/track control arms I would stay with 22/24 or stock/22 configuration.
Graham.
USA Autocrossing is very similar to the UK sprinting, generally on a flat course.
I've seen the USA threads too.
Just as you say, the convension is 22mm front/24mm back but 27/24 is very very different.
What i will say though is Whiteline sent me all the stuff to try 'in the real world' and this was the roll centre kit AND the 27mm front bar. They wanted the combination trying.
Wioth the stock ball joints/track control arms I would stay with 22/24 or stock/22 configuration.
Graham.