Then I'm sorry guys, the guy got what he deserved, one thing you don't do is aim somrthinthing the shape of a shotgun at 2 armed policeman, We had a case in Bedfordshire a couple of years back a traffic unit saw a Jaguar being driven as if the guy was drunk, in fact he was high on drink and drugs, when confronted the guy pulled out a firearm, an ARV unit was there pretty quick because this happened in a village where kids were playing, and instead of lying on the ground when told too he just kept waving the weapon around, and sadly he was shot by the armed police, the sad thing was it was a TOY GUN.
Cheers
Colin

 

My sentiments exactly!

 

<Jasper Carrot>

"Hello, is that Steven Waldorf? Paint your red mini purple... No, do it now, quickly and don't ask questions"

</Jasper Carrot>

 

If you 'get' this; are you old?

 

Yes, as it was in about 1974. BTW, Waldof was shot because after the coppers opened the doors and shouted, he reached for the glove compartment.


M

 

jasper carrot in 74????????

waldorf was shot in 83

 

Sorry, I have no sympathy for the socalled "victims" on these cases. If you refuse to obey a police officers command be it armed or otherwise you deserve everything you get.

 

The comments i have been making are about the actual shooting incident itself, not the aftermath. I too have heard talk of charging these two with pervert the course, if this in fact proved and something 'fishy' went on, they get what they deserve in my opinion. No place in the force for dodgy dealings. As for calling them 'the lads' this is a generic term i use all the time and in no way implies a clique on my part, as i have said i do not know these officers.

In answer to the other comments about 'long pointy sticks' in the heat of an incident in twilight a 'pointy stick' in a bag (i have read it was pointed at the officers in a way as to make it look like it was being aimed, again i do not know first hand so not taking this as read) looks a bloody lot like a firearm to me, in the same situation given the info given i think the outcome would have been the same for a good many firearms officers.

Also on the point of training a hell of a lot of training time is given to judgemental shooting, i.e. assessing a threat before reacting and we can lose our firearms authority if instructors believe our judgement is lacking. To have a dig at our training, in fact to say we are looking for an excuse to shoot i feel is a personal insult to myself as an authorised firearms officer. Contrary to popular belief, i DO NOT want to kill anyone, i just want to stop these idiots with guns killing others and for that i am willing to put my life and now it seems my liberty on the line daily.

A good many firearms officers will be thinking long and hard about whether it is worth it any more if in the course of your duty you are put in a situation and forced to react in seconds if it may mean a life sentence for getting it wrong.

 

Its a tough job having to take the decision to end someones life only to be made worse when your found to have taken the wrong decision.Due to the fact that we are not really a gun totting nation i dont think the police have enough experience dealing with these sort of situations,training only goes so far.Instead of trying to find scapegoats to what is pretty clearly a tragic accident maybe the powers that be should be looking for ways in which this can be avoided in future using non lethal methods(beanbag gun,tazer etc),then that way Britian can try and stay clear of the gun culture that is so blatant in America.

 

.Instead of trying to find scapegoats to what is pretty clearly a tragic accident maybe the powers that be should be looking for ways in which this can be avoided in future using non lethal methods(beanbag gun,tazer etc),then that way Britian can try and stay clear of the gun culture that is so blatant in America.[/QUOTE] I agree
Six years on non lethal options are availabe. Even CS gas was still not issued to all Met officers then. Until you've been in the position those officers were in you are not qualified to comment. Thet hardly did it for fun. You can guarantee if you discharge your weapon you will be called to account for why.... and thats before you kill someone. You'd be made up if a member of your family was threatened with a gun and the Police decided not to shoot them when the gunman pulled the trigger.
One of the main points lots of posts are missing is that the officers have been arrested....not charged....2 totally different points during investigations

 

One of my brothers is a marksman and authorisation to shoot is not given lightly.

We are talking about incapcitating a perceived threat to the general populace in the vacinity. Not just a confrontation between a pisshead an the police.

If you were in that pub, or lived in that road, what would you have considered the safe option if all of those people's lives were at risk. (and they could've been)

Hindsight is great at assigning blame, but you will need to make your decision quick on what you can see and hear.

 

It must reassure the police no end that the public feel that their lives are so indispensable.

If someone said to me there was a man in a Pub with a sawn off shotgun and they were concerned about the way he was behaving. They then said I had deal with it by challenging him and using all my training...... I'm sure everone on this board faced with the prospect of i this intelligence that a man had a shotgun would be oblivious to said weapon being pointed at them...it's only a piece of wood..isn't it?

Personally I wouldnt mind taking the first bullet just so I could prove I was the good guy. Well that's what it's like in the films so it must be true, Oh then I'd just shoot the gun out of his hand and be ready with counselling for him as it was just societies fault and if he actually got shot I'd recommend a 'no blame no claim solicitor'

Oh and if he just raised the gun with the express desire of murdering me I would stop him in his steps by requiring him to fill in several forms about his ethnicity and apologise for my aggressive behaviour in the certain hope that he was just misunderstood by society.

No other country would put these officers through this. Six or more years legal scrutiny over an incident which occurred over as many as 6 seconds, especially having been cleared once.

Bottom line is if someone said that a person was threatening other people in a pub with a shotgun and they pointed whatever it was at me whether in jest or otherwise, should I die after taking positive action? , or spend the rest of my life in prison because I over reacted. It was only a chair leg after all.

Hindsight..don't you just love it...you can never be wrong

 

Shoot him in the legs? Getting shot on the leg with a paintball stops you in your tracks - I would imagine that a live bullet would be at least equally efficient.

 

Well said!

I had attempted to make a post earlier and SN had a moody and lost my post. Probably for the better as your post put my point across much much better.

 

Real life isn't like the movies. I assure you it is extremly difficult to shoot someone in the legs, even if they are standing still. They may also still be able to shoot back at you or others. The only way to shoot someone is to aim for the centre of mass (the chest), because it gives you the greatest chance of actually hitting the target.

If the guy was too stupid, or too drunk, to realise that 2 armed police officers were pointing guns at him, he deserves his Darwin award.

 

The Police need to abide by a 'Rules Of Engagement' card like the British Forces. I know from experience that the Police are more likely to shoot first and ask questions later.

This would prevent all this 'Gung Ho' attitude that the Police have. The Police just do not get sufficent training. They need alot more training and likely 'situation' briefs' like the Forces.

It is true though that no matter what you are, Police or Forces, if you shoot someone, then you are GUILTY of murder until proven otherwise. They take away your gun for evidence and you get interviewed and put on trial. Look at the news reports from the British Forces in Iraqi and the Police in the UK.

It can be very difficult in sudden life or death situations, but given the right training, and if you follow the Rules Of Engagement, then you will be covered under the law.

Dealing with suicide bombers all the time cetainly tests these skills.

 

On reflection, its difficult to comment accurately without knowing exactly what happened. If he did turn and point the chair leg at the coppers then he was definitely acting stupidly.

Les

 

2 quick points,

'Shoot him in te legs'

No. Doesn't happen. We are trained to shoot centre mass so as to stop a target. We do not aim for legs, arms, guns etc, too easy to miss and that really makes things worse. Also a shot in the leg would pass straight through and leave a round still moving at very high speed looking for soething to stop it, another innocent perhaps? Happens in the movies but nowhere else, the adrenalin and stress of a live situation would also make this shot very difficult indeed, bearing in mind with intel of a shotgun i wouldn't want to be engaging from too close!!

2nd. Rules of engagement.

We do, we are held to account for all our actions and are clearly told our responsibilities and circs in which we may fire before any pre planned operation. On spontaneous incidents these rules also apply and we are expected to act within them. All firearms officers know these rules and we always abide by them. How many incidents do you know off where firearms officers have been arrested for murder/manslaughter? How many incidents of fatalities from firearms incidents involving police do you here of per year? Not many i bet, generally just a 2 line piece in a paper or 10 seconds on a news channel. But they happen, more regularly than you might think and are always thoroughly investigated, its just most of the time it's totally justified and that aint really news is it?

 

Just heard some interesting things involving this job.

Apparently there wasn't just one call regarding the man but (depending which agency you listen too) between 20-30 calls all regarding an armed man in the pub.

Puts another angle on things doesn't it?

 

Unfortunately there are too many people on here who want to lay blame before they know any let alone ALL of the facts. Right or wrong, when you pull that trigger you have to live with the consequences......