NotoriousREV

Don't suppose you have the accurate gear ratios, do you? (including final drive)

LG John

No problem paul I note you and neil have both just signed into MSN at the same time - I fear a double teaming No problem regarding a run mate, I'll not get carried away in the twisties, etc because I don't know the handling that well yet but some cruising with the hood down could be the order of the day

John, I was having a bet with myself that you'd wade in with the very point you've made I was discussing this with my flatemate last night and reached a similar conclusion that the only advantage the P1 could be having is the shape of its curve resulting in it putting a higher percentage of its peak power on the road immediately following each change up. ITs also apparent when you drive the S that despite being on the 2nd lobes she still pulls harder at 8000rpm than at 6500rpm, etc.

Paul has raised the other (rather more worrying issue) and that is a run against Niel's cup. Neil is a SN regular that has posted a 14.1 @ 99mph at crail which I believe was posted on here resulting in a 'heated' thread. The cup has (from memory) a filter, exhaust, r-sport chip and he runs it less the rear bench and on 1/4 tank of gas. Neil has basically suggested that the cup will beat the s2000 from a rolling 1st gear start and that the P1 will muller it. I just don't see how but can't be sure enough to make a 'no it bloody won't' statement.

Now the maths Assuming its a good one out the factory its not unreasonable to accept the cup now has 192bhp (a 20bhp increase over standard) and less 30kg from bench removal, etc now weighs 1060kg. According to lets torque its stats would be:

0 - 60 (Secs) : 6.07
0 - 100 (Secs) : 15.39
60 - 100 (Secs) : 9.32

So its still about 1s slower from 60-100 than the S2000. With 200bhp and 1040kg it would be:

0 - 60 (Secs) : 5.80
0 - 100 (Secs) : 14.50
60 - 100 (Secs) : 8.70
Quarter Mile (Secs) : 14.20

Realistically therefore, it needs nicely over 200bhp to pull away from the S2000. I can't see a renault 2.0 producing over 200bhp from a chip, filter and cat-back?

At 192 - 15% (fwd) = 163bhp @ wheels/ 1060kg x 1000 = 153bhp @ wheels per ton

To remind you I calculated the S2000 @ S2000 = 152bhp/ton @ wheels.

In short I just can't see how this cup is going to beat the S2000. I expect that by 100mph the S2000 would have pulled ahead, not by much....but ahead. This is the next problem I face, different perceptions of a 'win'. Last time I played with Neils cup was when I had the scooby (modded to 270bhp). We started rolling with me behind him in 1st gear and as soon as he floored it so did I. It took me until into 4th gear to pass enough that I could pull back in and I basically crawled past. No disrepsect to Neil (whom I know will read this) but he seemed to think of that as some sort of victory to the cup because it was so hard for me to pass - in some regards it was a morale victory! However, IMHO for any fast car to pass another fast car in any increment between 0-100mph is pretty impressive. An e46 M3 would probably struggle to pass my S2000 over a similar range for example.

Gonna be interesting to find out

LG John

Accurate ratio's will be found on S2ki somewhere Final drive is 4.1 from memory

Dracoro

1………..3.133
2……….2.045
3………1.481
4……… 1.161
5………..0.971
6……….0.811

Overall drive - 4.1

LG John

I'm not making excuses but: my s2000 is probably down a little on stock power at the moment. It has an aftermarket filter fitted in place of the airbox positioned near the front of the bay behind the radiator. Its well known that filters in that pos draw too much hot air and are inferior to the standard box. I'll be looking to get a proper cold air induction kit in the future where the filter cone is right at the front of the car low down near the road.

My car was kangarooing in traffic today which is a symptom of filter heat soak. Any s2000 owner will confirm

deadduck

Saxo, you were backing off because I like my license in one piece, mate.

DD

Frazer

It's since done a 14.2@100.7 mph with a 2.4 60 ft. Ive added a ITG Maxogen since then (only had a panel filter before) I will be surprised if a S2000 can match my acceleration.

My car could only do 14.4@96 when your 13.4 scooby took till 4th gear to get past me id LOVE a re-match with it now! Oh and there is no way a S2000 will pull on me over 100, my pals got a 156 GTA and i sat side by side with him 100-125 (when we braked) below 100 I was pushing him along and could have easily went past if the conditions had allowed, bare in mind the 156 is only 40 kg heavier than a 146 GTA!

davyboy

Great - not heard that for a while

Dave

LG John

Wow, was that you in the S2000. That was like years ago I can only assume Gza alerted you to this thread, you were mates with him were you not? Still got the S? Go to any of the meets? Keep an eye out for my imola orange S - you can't miss it

I may lose to this cup but I doubt it. Unless it has a nos bottle or hidden mods it would basically defy physics to beat the s2000 after 60mph. But if it does then it does - I didn't spend the money I did on the S to have brutal speed.

Senior_AP

Saxoboy. You've made a spot on choice imo.

However, a P1 is quicker FULL STOP. Yeah they're chav, typical w&nkbox subaru neon cars but they ARE quick. An S2000 is NOT as quick, however - it's the driver that makes up that 3/4 of a second - so learn the car and kick some ***!!!

Good luck mate!! Lash these neon loving, guage wanking, boost boosting, dump dumping, bleed bleeding, induction inductioning bell ends and enjoy ya motor!!!

LG John

LOL, P1s aren't chav but I must admit around edinburgh there is a rapidly increaing number of neds driving classic shape scoobys with lexus rear lights. A real shame

Senior_AP

Subaru's aren't chav generally but overall, they are being owned by chavs.

Unnecessarily loud exhausts, booming induction kits, dump valves. ****.

Saxoboy, S2000 - good man!!!

NotoriousREV

OK, updated my simulation and it shows the following:

0 - 60 in 6.3 (so 0.1 secs slower than claimed by Honda, just to compare accuracy)
0 - 100 in 14.9

Rolling start:

40 - 50 = 0.9
40 - 60 = 2.9
40 - 70 = 4.3
40 - 80 = 6.0
40 - 90 = 9.0
40 - 100 = 11.5

P1 times:

0 - 60 = 4.7
0 - 100 = 13.2

Rolling start:

40 - 50 = 1.1
40 - 60 = 2.1
40 - 70 = 4.1
40 - 80 = 5.7
40 - 90 = 7.4
40 - 100 = 10.6

So pretty close on paper. Bet there's naff all in it, in reality

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

The 100-120 time is pretty impresive, would be very surprised if an S2000 would get close TBH.

LG John

Yeah, I'm fooked!!! Met my mate today who has a MKI elise (118bhp) with induction kit and exhaust. We both had our roofs down and the cars were exactly even. At 80mph I started to pull away very slightly and when I lifted at 90 I'd only opened about 1-1.5 car lengths on him My scooby used to pass elises quite effortlessly at 80mph!

So far I just don't know what to make of the s2000s straightline performance. They are talked up a lot for romping scoobys, this, that and the next thing from rolling starts but I'm just not sure. I'm becoming increasingly concerned that this cup will sit with me all the way to whatever speed we want to go Nevertheless, its the other aspects of the s2000 I like more but I can't help but long for straightline grunt

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Don't worry about the straight line performance as much, the S2000 is a great car, I'd swap the P1 for one in an instant.

Incidentally I was in Neils car when a MK1 elise came storming up behind us(I mean storming), the Cup pulled about 6-8 car lengths(conservative) up to about the ton, it really is that quick btw.

Fat Boy

Not really actually - it's the shape of the curve and the space under the curve that will make a car quick or not. For instance, if there were two identical cars with identical gear ratios, but one had 50% more torque than the other, which one do you think would accelerate quicker?

"Using all the revs the gear ratios allow " is not necessarily true as well- it can be slower to hold onto the gears for too long although it clearly suits a screamer like the Honda.

Still we agree on the fact that the P1 is quicker. I have one and I've been on track with S2K's and they are very definitely slower. Whether they are more fun or not would be a different question however....

The_Titanium_Knob_Man

Saxo,

From my experience of driving the S and its straight line speed I would bet you are going to have serious trouble with the modded Clio cup. However which would you rather be seen in.....? A classic albeit fast 'Nicole' car .......or one of the 'definitve drivers' roadsters............

Having said all that if renault build qulity wasn't so shockingly bad I would seriously consider buying a cup for sheer entertainment value at being able to hold my own with some serious kit!

Stiver3

lol, just because some impreza's have been chaved, it makes all of them chavy?? if so it must mean then that all porsche's are now chav!;look at the front cover of this months maxpower!!

lovely S2000 btw mate!

slim_boy_fat

That's what happens when you allow chavs et al to play the national lottery!!!

Cosworth427

P1 and S2000 do not have identical powerbands, and they do not have identical gear ratios, so I don't know why you have to discuss the "if-all-was-equal except this or that" scenario.

The S2000 is geared in respect to the powerband, so where is lacks in torque isn't really an issue if you are testing for maximum performance.

There's nothing much else to discuss. I have provided some performance data from REAL production model tests, not stupid webpage calculations. The P1 is faster through the gears, it makes more power through the RPM range it has been tested in and it has a in-significant 20kg penality over the S2000.

It is as simple as that.

chrisp

Okay my ra is not quite the same as a P1 plus its been remapped but according to my last RR graph it reaches 240bhp @ 4000rpm and climbs all the way and drop off a little to the redline (about 300bhp @ 7,500, peak of 315bhp), torque is 310lb/ft at 4000rpm and at the redline its still about 220lb/ft

Comparing peak power values is pretty useless to be honest as you really need to compare curves, gear ratios and transmission losses.

Not as easy as it first appears.

LG John

Transmission losses are utter bullsh!t it seems! Raw power is the way to go. Planning a s/c corvette for my next car - should see off clio's and P1's I think

Dark Blue Mark

I currently have an S2000 and an Sti5, which is pretty much a P1 in terms of performance. In a straight line I cant see my S2000 keeping up... The 0-60 is over 1.5 second difference and there's no way the S2000 could close that gap.

Once rolling the S is extremely quick, which surprises me. I had a race with one from 30 to 100 ish when I was in my old UK MY99 (270 bhp) and I only crawled past... In that situation I think it would be close to a P1 / STi5.

Also gave some punishment to an R33 GTR the other night, might be a bit unfair as he had his bird in the car I will maintain though, that its damn fast when youre above 50 and working the box... The lack of torque thing is a bit of bollox, on paper it doesnt have much, but NA cars are deceptive and I find it pulls very well if you drop it down 2 cogs. Plus the birds like it None EVER liked the scoob...

MB

Amuse Boy

Saxo Boy - that race Dij is describing was with my car :LOL:

Dij - I'd like to correct a few facts here: you launched / I didn't. From a roll, in first I was pulling through all gears - do you recall trying to pull out and overtake when you launched behind me? What happened? VTEC happened

Leaving Shell, rolling from the lights - quite a few lengths there too.

I have to give you one though - when you dumped the clutch whilst rolling - your exchaust back fired like a madman and I thought something had hit my screen :LOL: so I backed off.

All in good fun though.

BTW, my S isn't stock.

SB - sorry I went off on tangent but not sure how a standard S would compare.

Cyberevo

iTrader: (1)

As far as I see this debate, it's like comparing chalk and cheese (I'm well twiste tonight).

I have had a Sti5 Type RA V-Ltd, EVO6 DC2 and I now own a DC5... It's not about how fast each car is, beause both or all thre or four cars are vert fast.. to me, it's all aboy how it gets there.. The ST5-5 kicked but when it wa on song. The EVO pulled liked a train but TBH I had the most fun in my DC5, it was not the fastest but geting there was so much more fun than my previous cars.

The only car that came close to the fun way my STi-1 and I'm sure that wa due to the 60-40 split (mabe I'm wrong here)

But what people need to undrstand is that there are far too may rozzers on the roads ther daya, anf they days of blasting your tubo along dual carraigway has gone.

so why not get somehing at little bit slower, a lot mer rare, far more eye catching like the DC5........

I;ve done it, been there, seen it and I wil never swap my DC5 for anyting under £40k...

bumcrack

P1 will win in a straight line, but I'd put money on the S2000 over the P1 on the track.

mattvortex

the P1 would have even more of a gap on a track-.on top gear once , they raced an s2000 and civic type r against each other on a track and that was a draw. the P1 withs its superior performance and TRACTION would creame them on a track

Dracoro

General knowledge on this was that it was staged. The S2000 IS faster than a CTR on track. The S2000 is quicker than a 260bhp scoob round a track that's for sure And none of this 'different driver skills, we are both crap!

As to which is faster round the track, it's hard to say. The S2000 will be more fun though!!!!

LG John

This thread was about straight-line as I didn't want twisties to enter into it. Down a leave ridden, tight, muddy, broken scottish c-class road the P1 would leave the S2000 for dead! Around a track the S would beat the P1, it handles so much better giving the driver so many more options. It also has a dog loads of actual grip! I've not been anywhere near the limits and already its showing it could out corner a classic shape scooby.......but then my VTS would out corner a scooby round track too