APS Cold Air Kit - Tuners views?
17 March 2005, 02:10 PM
#32
Also on the K&N filter list it does state that the figures can be increased by 20% (for a clean filter).
So 185bhp + 20% +80%(for turbocharged applications) = 399.6bhp
Not sure if they included the 20% dirty filter margin or not in the 80%.
Bob
So 185bhp + 20% +80%(for turbocharged applications) = 399.6bhp
Not sure if they included the 20% dirty filter margin or not in the 80%.
Bob
17 March 2005, 10:51 PM
#33
Bob : It is 185 bhp filter for naturally aspirated.
I would not rely on an available extra 20% when the filter is clean. What happens through its working life ? Like I said, it might be OK for what you want to do.
If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?
You are asking questions but havn't answered any. Is there a prominent warning of the potential danger of ruining an engine on the APS CAK packaging ?
I take exception to a manufacturer which portrays itself as a knowledgeable tuning expert when they produce a piece of kit that has a lot of potential to catch out the wary and then deny there is a problem which is now well known to a number of amateur tuners and professionals alike. See the Chris Davies post.
I know what happened on my car, as do the others involved at the time, long before any of this became contentious and I am totally at one with my results and observations.
I would not rely on an available extra 20% when the filter is clean. What happens through its working life ? Like I said, it might be OK for what you want to do.
If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?
You are asking questions but havn't answered any. Is there a prominent warning of the potential danger of ruining an engine on the APS CAK packaging ?
I take exception to a manufacturer which portrays itself as a knowledgeable tuning expert when they produce a piece of kit that has a lot of potential to catch out the wary and then deny there is a problem which is now well known to a number of amateur tuners and professionals alike. See the Chris Davies post.
I know what happened on my car, as do the others involved at the time, long before any of this became contentious and I am totally at one with my results and observations.
17 March 2005, 11:05 PM
#34
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I do agree with Harvey that the APS CAK should have a warning stating that it alters the airflow signal. This is due to the 90 degree bend before the MAF which deflects the airflow around the airflow sensor non linearly, the effects are greater at high flows.
Without doubt, this type of induction requires a remap before being used on boost. Other than that it is still a considerable improvement over the OE induction and also many of the aftermarked underbonnet induction kits.
Andy
Without doubt, this type of induction requires a remap before being used on boost. Other than that it is still a considerable improvement over the OE induction and also many of the aftermarked underbonnet induction kits.
Andy
18 March 2005, 07:46 AM
#35
Good read, and a good debate.
I think the '407' run at Well Lane is my 20g (etc) car, and I add that my induction is the stock air box, the resonator cut away in the wing, the air duct opened and re directed from the indicator lamp area, and the filter is a simple Green Cotton OEM replacement from D/Tweeks.
I have also blanked off the inlet to the resonator from the headlamp scoop and in the blanking rubber inserted the air temperature sensor so it is exposed to the 'under wing' air flow.
407 works for me.
I nearly went the APS route, but prefer to spend the money/remap towards slicks etc that will make the car faster on the track than the number chase on the rollers
Graham.
I think the '407' run at Well Lane is my 20g (etc) car, and I add that my induction is the stock air box, the resonator cut away in the wing, the air duct opened and re directed from the indicator lamp area, and the filter is a simple Green Cotton OEM replacement from D/Tweeks.
I have also blanked off the inlet to the resonator from the headlamp scoop and in the blanking rubber inserted the air temperature sensor so it is exposed to the 'under wing' air flow.
407 works for me.
I nearly went the APS route, but prefer to spend the money/remap towards slicks etc that will make the car faster on the track than the number chase on the rollers
Graham.
Last edited by 911; 18 March 2005 at 07:48 AM. Reason: spelling
18 March 2005, 12:32 PM
#36
Originally Posted by harvey
Bob : It is 185 bhp filter for naturally aspirated.
I would not rely on an available extra 20% when the filter is clean. What happens through its working life ? Like I said, it might be OK for what you want to do.
You are asking questions but havn't answered any. Is there a prominent warning of the potential danger of ruining an engine on the APS CAK packaging ?
I take exception to a manufacturer which portrays itself as a knowledgeable tuning expert when they produce a piece of kit that has a lot of potential to catch out the wary and then deny there is a problem which is now well known to a number of amateur tuners and professionals alike. See the Chris Davies post.
I know what happened on my car, as do the others involved at the time, long before any of this became contentious and I am totally at one with my results and observations.
I would not rely on an available extra 20% when the filter is clean. What happens through its working life ? Like I said, it might be OK for what you want to do.
You are asking questions but havn't answered any. Is there a prominent warning of the potential danger of ruining an engine on the APS CAK packaging ?
I take exception to a manufacturer which portrays itself as a knowledgeable tuning expert when they produce a piece of kit that has a lot of potential to catch out the wary and then deny there is a problem which is now well known to a number of amateur tuners and professionals alike. See the Chris Davies post.
I know what happened on my car, as do the others involved at the time, long before any of this became contentious and I am totally at one with my results and observations.
I dont understand "If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?".....please explain.
Re: 20% Its as stated by the manufacturers. They state not to use the 20% rule if used in very dusty circumstances.
re: 185bhp. Nobody was ever talking about n/a cars.
So you concede that:
a) its not a 185bhp filter
b) its not only good for a 150bhp Nova
?
18 March 2005, 12:42 PM
#37
Originally Posted by 911
I think the '407' run at Well Lane is my 20g (etc) car, and I add that my induction is the stock air box, the resonator cut away in the wing, the air duct opened and re directed from the indicator lamp area, and the filter is a simple Green Cotton OEM replacement from D/Tweeks.
on the track than the number chase on the rollers
Impressive stuff. Is this the highest an OE box has been taken to?
Originally Posted by 911
I nearly went the APS route, but prefer to spend the money/remap towards slicks etc that will make the car faster on the track than the number chase on the rollers
Graham.
And I brought your slicks from you for cheap
Bob
18 March 2005, 06:29 PM
#39
20 March 2005, 12:49 AM
#41
Bob : Accepting that in turbo charged applications the 185 bhp naturally aspirated filter could be used up to 333bhp, this is what I posted previously.
"If that is around your power aspiration Bob(333bhp) you should be OK if the recalibration has been done. Sorry if I have alarmed you but I stick 100% by the accuracy of my own findings and I have regard for K+Ns technical competance."
I would also add that I have the greatest respect for Andy's technical knowledge and remarkable ability and it is seldom we do not agree but on this occassion I was tipped off to try a filter change, did so, was astounded by the results and have reported them here, openly and honestly. My notes and observations were accurate and specific at the time, nearly two years ago, long before any of this became contentious.
""I dont understand "If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?".....please explain."
Read what has been written. If you do not comprehend I am not sure I can assist you further. There are better, reliable solutions and manny a mickle maks a muckle or so I think. If you do not share that philosophy let your results speak for themselves.
When the filter is new and therefore clean it can flow 20% more air than the rated figure but obviously this deteriorates throughout the service life. The manufacturer states clearly this 20% should not be taken into account in dusty conditions.
"re: 185bhp. Nobody was ever talking about n/a cars.
So you concede that:
a) its not a 185bhp filter
b) its not only good for a 150bhp Nova"
The filter is rated by the manufacturer as 185 bhp. Naturally aspirated We were not talking about naturally aspirated applications but I am talking about my findings and sharing them with the community at large. As already stated this filter, according to the manufacturer will be suitable for another 80% bhp in turbo charged applications. This can only be possible because of the depression created in the inlet tract. Removing any such depression will increase the turbos ability to produce power.
As the former owner of an APS CAK I know only too well its limitations. Like you said, even now, three years on, when APS know of the problem, there is no warning printed on the box.
I don't give a stuff whether you accept my findings or not and I stand by my findings which funnily enough are in line with those of the filter manufacturer. Now if you and others know better than K+N good luck to you.
"If that is around your power aspiration Bob(333bhp) you should be OK if the recalibration has been done. Sorry if I have alarmed you but I stick 100% by the accuracy of my own findings and I have regard for K+Ns technical competance."
I would also add that I have the greatest respect for Andy's technical knowledge and remarkable ability and it is seldom we do not agree but on this occassion I was tipped off to try a filter change, did so, was astounded by the results and have reported them here, openly and honestly. My notes and observations were accurate and specific at the time, nearly two years ago, long before any of this became contentious.
""I dont understand "If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?".....please explain."
Read what has been written. If you do not comprehend I am not sure I can assist you further. There are better, reliable solutions and manny a mickle maks a muckle or so I think. If you do not share that philosophy let your results speak for themselves.
When the filter is new and therefore clean it can flow 20% more air than the rated figure but obviously this deteriorates throughout the service life. The manufacturer states clearly this 20% should not be taken into account in dusty conditions.
"re: 185bhp. Nobody was ever talking about n/a cars.
So you concede that:
a) its not a 185bhp filter
b) its not only good for a 150bhp Nova"
The filter is rated by the manufacturer as 185 bhp. Naturally aspirated We were not talking about naturally aspirated applications but I am talking about my findings and sharing them with the community at large. As already stated this filter, according to the manufacturer will be suitable for another 80% bhp in turbo charged applications. This can only be possible because of the depression created in the inlet tract. Removing any such depression will increase the turbos ability to produce power.
As the former owner of an APS CAK I know only too well its limitations. Like you said, even now, three years on, when APS know of the problem, there is no warning printed on the box.
I don't give a stuff whether you accept my findings or not and I stand by my findings which funnily enough are in line with those of the filter manufacturer. Now if you and others know better than K+N good luck to you.
23 March 2005, 09:40 AM
#42
I see that John Banks is selling his APS, CAK and he does not appear to put a lot of value on it.
"APS CAK with large K&N filter, filter is cosmetically dirty but still works well, could be replaced for about £30-35, I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
"APS CAK with large K&N filter, filter is cosmetically dirty but still works well, could be replaced for about £30-35, I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
23 March 2005, 02:43 PM
#43
Originally Posted by harvey
I see that John Banks is selling his APS, CAK and he does not appear to put a lot of value on it.
"APS CAK with large K&N filter, filter is cosmetically dirty but still works well, could be replaced for about £30-35, I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
"APS CAK with large K&N filter, filter is cosmetically dirty but still works well, could be replaced for about £30-35, I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
And btw you didnt state the 80% turbo factor when expressing views about the APS on other thread. You only mention 2 figures...150bhp (nova) and 185bhp (max power capability).
Havent checked the thread for a while as I thought it was all done and dusted. Certainly answered any queries I had over the APS CAK.
Regards,
Bob
23 March 2005, 04:36 PM
#44
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JB posting on T-uks' computer.
Harvey, I'm selling the kit because I have a GT30R with a 4" inlet now on the car. I wish in some ways I could still run it as the inlet temperatures are far higher with the present setup, although it does need boxing in. The APS cast elbow would be too small to keep a 4" bore into the wing.
Harvey, I'm selling the kit because I have a GT30R with a 4" inlet now on the car. I wish in some ways I could still run it as the inlet temperatures are far higher with the present setup, although it does need boxing in. The APS cast elbow would be too small to keep a 4" bore into the wing.
23 March 2005, 08:47 PM
#45
I can come to that conclusion because I can read and comprehend the written word.
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
23 March 2005, 09:03 PM
#46
Originally Posted by harvey
I can come to that conclusion because I can read and comprehend the written word.
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
Furthermore, I still fail to understand the following:
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?"
Now if someone other than yourself can tell me that they understand that, then I will have to concede that I am stupid.
Bob
23 March 2005, 09:44 PM
#47
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JB on T-uk's PC again. Far bigger project than I first thought
Harvey, I used the larger filter you kindly sent me because it was larger, new and because it would fit, not because the original had anything wrong with it. I wouldn't sell a used cone filter, hence the comments. There is no implication that I was unhappy with the kit when used with a bolt on turbo.
Harvey, I used the larger filter you kindly sent me because it was larger, new and because it would fit, not because the original had anything wrong with it. I wouldn't sell a used cone filter, hence the comments. There is no implication that I was unhappy with the kit when used with a bolt on turbo.
24 March 2005, 09:16 AM
#49
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bob, it looks like Harvey was suggesting my sale was a bargain, and for that I thank him However, it could be read that he is using the fact I am selling mine because it no longer fits as some sort of point to add to his argument. In that case I will share in your stupidity and compliment Harvey on his ambiguity that allows him to call people stupid.
However, it could be read that he is using the fact I am selling mine because it no longer fits as some sort of point to add to his argument. In that case I will share in your stupidity and compliment Harvey on his ambiguity that allows him to call people stupid.
24 March 2005, 10:44 AM
#50
I'm sorry to say Harvey but I'm quite well read but still fail to understand:
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?"
Let try and break it down:
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have..." (this bit I understand)
"....why skimp on a £40 filter..." (still understand thus far, although cant see the relevance, as I havent 'skimped')
"....or a £180 induction kit" (this is where it stops making any sense)
Bob
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?"
Let try and break it down:
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have..." (this bit I understand)
"....why skimp on a £40 filter..." (still understand thus far, although cant see the relevance, as I havent 'skimped')
"....or a £180 induction kit" (this is where it stops making any sense)
Bob
24 March 2005, 11:40 AM
#51
John : Just stick with what is written.
I do not need to hide behind any ambiguity.
"John: I merely pointed out you were selling your CAK and from your post you had not placed a high value on it. You explained it was not suitable for your GT 30 and that is clearly understood."
I assume you meant what you said and were not having one of your ramblings.
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
Bob.
I did not realise you were challenged so I will explain in simple terms.
£180 induction kit = K and N filter + 90 deg cast bend + bracket + screws = APS induction kit.
If you are at Andy F's over the week-end I can come over and explain in person if you still don't get it.
I do not need to hide behind any ambiguity.
"John: I merely pointed out you were selling your CAK and from your post you had not placed a high value on it. You explained it was not suitable for your GT 30 and that is clearly understood."
I assume you meant what you said and were not having one of your ramblings.
"I include it more to allow you to measure up - you can just get it into the wing, but it is tight, I probably have the old APS cone somewhere, again to allow measuring up, it is dirty, personally I don't clean cones if using a MAF. "
Bob.
I did not realise you were challenged so I will explain in simple terms.
£180 induction kit = K and N filter + 90 deg cast bend + bracket + screws = APS induction kit.
If you are at Andy F's over the week-end I can come over and explain in person if you still don't get it.
24 March 2005, 11:46 AM
#52
Originally Posted by harvey
Bob.
I did not realise you were challenged so I will explain in simple terms.
£180 induction kit = K and N filter + 90 deg cast bend + bracket + screws = APS induction kit.
If you are at Andy F's over the week-end I can come over and explain in person if you still don't get it.
Andy is over at mine on the weekend but you are welcome to pop down.....just dont be smoking any of that funny stuff which makes you muddle sentences up
Bob
24 March 2005, 11:55 AM
#53
I see you are having a larf mate. Unfortunately you appear mentally challenged. There are no muddled sentences from me.
Thanks for the invite. PM me your address and I will call on you next time I am in your area. Sorry I cannot make this week-end as I am in Edinburgh area.
Thanks for the invite. PM me your address and I will call on you next time I am in your area. Sorry I cannot make this week-end as I am in Edinburgh area.
24 March 2005, 12:05 PM
#54
Originally Posted by harvey
I see you are having a larf mate. Unfortunately you appear mentally challenged. There are no muddled sentences from me.
Now if anybody other than yourself can understand what your sentence says, without further explanation then I will concede that I am indeed stupid. One thing is quite clear......one of us is stupid, either for writing something that doesn't make any sense or not being able to read a perfrectly well written sentence.
"If you want to extract maximum power from the mods you have why skimp on a £40 filter or a £180 induction kit ?"
Bear in mind that I have already stated that I have already brought a APS CAK for £25.
Now can anybody make any sense of Harveys' sentence in the applied circumstances?
No secret where I live. West Midlands and North Hertfordshire.
Bob
24 March 2005, 12:28 PM
#55
Bob: These kits cost around £180 so you got a bargain at £25.
If you want to potentially compromise your engine or power output for an APS CAK, regardless of whether it cost £25 or £180 that is your choice and down to your judgement.
Now the West Midlands and North Hertfordshire is a big area so in view of your invite to pop down just PM your address. Include your phone number and I will let you know in advance when I will be in your area.
If you want to potentially compromise your engine or power output for an APS CAK, regardless of whether it cost £25 or £180 that is your choice and down to your judgement.
Now the West Midlands and North Hertfordshire is a big area so in view of your invite to pop down just PM your address. Include your phone number and I will let you know in advance when I will be in your area.
24 March 2005, 12:39 PM
#56
Originally Posted by harvey
Bob: These kits cost around £180 so you got a bargain at £25.
Originally Posted by harvey
If you want to potentially compromise your engine or power output for an APS CAK, regardless of whether it cost £25 or £180 that is your choice and down to your judgement.
Originally Posted by harvey
Now the West Midlands and North Hertfordshire is a big area so in view of your invite to pop down just PM your address. Include your phone number and I will let you know in advance when I will be in your area.
Bob
24 March 2005, 01:24 PM
#57
Thanks for your e-mail inviting me to drop in if I am in the Letchworth or Coventry areas but you ommitted your address again. How stupid of you. I certainly want to accept your invite
I am in Desford, next week so no problem.
I see in one of your other posts earlier today, you admit that your stupidity is quite transparent. I am sorry you have this affliction.
ah....I see...my stupidity is quite transparent once again
I hate going to Halfrauds....chav magnet.....luckily I park around the corner (although admittedly not out of choice though....damn those anti chav speed humps )
Cheers mate.
Bob
I am in Desford, next week so no problem.
I see in one of your other posts earlier today, you admit that your stupidity is quite transparent. I am sorry you have this affliction.
ah....I see...my stupidity is quite transparent once again
I hate going to Halfrauds....chav magnet.....luckily I park around the corner (although admittedly not out of choice though....damn those anti chav speed humps )
Cheers mate.
Bob
24 March 2005, 01:38 PM
#58
Originally Posted by harvey
Thanks for your e-mail inviting me to drop in if I am in the Letchworth or Coventry areas but you ommitted your address again. How stupid of you. I certainly want to accept your invite
I am in Desford, next week so no problem.
I see in one of your other posts earlier today, you admit that your stupidity is quite transparent. I am sorry you have this affliction.
ah....I see...my stupidity is quite transparent once again
I hate going to Halfrauds....chav magnet.....luckily I park around the corner (although admittedly not out of choice though....damn those anti chav speed humps )
Cheers mate.
Bob
I am in Desford, next week so no problem.
I see in one of your other posts earlier today, you admit that your stupidity is quite transparent. I am sorry you have this affliction.
ah....I see...my stupidity is quite transparent once again
I hate going to Halfrauds....chav magnet.....luckily I park around the corner (although admittedly not out of choice though....damn those anti chav speed humps )
Cheers mate.
Bob
I have given you my telephone number so you can call if you want to pop over. Letchworth is a tiny place and Coventry isn't exactly massive.
You weren't planning on popping over without notice were you?
24 March 2005, 01:44 PM
#60
I know you are stupid but I know you can read so you must have missed this bit.
"Now the West Midlands and North Hertfordshire is a big area so in view of your invite to pop down just PM your address. Include your phone number and I will let you know in advance when I will be in your area. "
"Now the West Midlands and North Hertfordshire is a big area so in view of your invite to pop down just PM your address. Include your phone number and I will let you know in advance when I will be in your area. "