Pavlo

Erm, it was a question, not a statement.

Given some long duration RA cams, lightly ported heads, nice efficient intercooler, large inlet pipe, 10% methanol, headers, 3" ex then yes it can find you one, it will even bolt on.

Paul

CustomScoobyIOM

Ah right. Apologies.

Jon.

Andy.F

Ok Paul let me put it another way,
Show me a less laggy 410bhp capable (on optimax on a std UK engine) bolt on turbo and I'll buy it, lets not forget the "better priced" than £850 delivered

Andy

Pavlo

Okay,

410hp on optimax with no surge, allowing 400ft-lb on a 2.0 engine.

Bolt on.

Oh , and it will use 100% new parts.

£850? Well, if you want to buy a better turbo with brand new parts, you may have to fork out a little more money!

Paul

Andy.F

OK so you have missed out the "less laggy" ???
and its not "better priced" after all

I could supply that spec no problem

Andy

Pavlo

Andy,

I am trying to be serious and constructive. If you just want to plug your product that's fine though.

What I would like is a turbo that gives the same top end performance as the 20g, the same (not necessarily less) lag, but has no surge problems on a 2.0 engine.

Feel free to compare prices when you build your turbos with 100% new parts.

Paul

Andy.F

Paul

Lets make it clear here that you are a turbo supplier with an ambition to build your business. Rubbishing the competition may one way of doing that.

The thread is titled "TD05/06 20g - Opinions"

Going off topic a bit, (sorry Raj) can you be constructive and tell us more about your superior alternative
I am particulary interested in how many different models it has been tested on and the dyno results.

Andy

For a 100% new TD05/06-20G it is £940 delivered. Although the remanufactured units come with the same performance and guarantee

Adam M

Andy, I wasn't aware your turbos were made with "old" parts.

are these reconditioned prior to installation?

do they need to be rebalanced or is that just snake oil?

which bits are we talking about and how much would they affect prices if they were replaced with brand new items.

Pavlo

Why would I rubbish a product I intend to stock?

If we are going to be clear, then I have supplied a grand total of ONE turbo, and that was to YOU! I do have an ambition, and when I actually start trading properly you can pull the supplier card to your heart's content.

My point is that people should be aware of the potential problems and limitations of using the td05/06-20g, especially on a 2.0 engine. They are one of the best solutions but they will not suit everyone.

I don't see the need to offer a better turbo AND at a lower price.

The option is there for anyone to get a 20g, and it's not a bad turbo, but I think the majority of people that use one don't get the best out of it, and that it's not best suited in the majority of the cars it's actually used one.

Paul

Andy.F

Adam

The prices for both options new and fully reconditioned are already in this thread, you will have the moderators clamping down on advertising if I continue to repeat them !

There are certain parts that are economical to reuse with no effect on performance or reliability.
An example of you this you can relate to may be the head castings on your 'new' engine

Andy

PICKLE

Cool! I must be tapping on the door of 400bhp now then!

STI 5 lump, 1.5bar, Gruppe-s, FMIC, 740's, SX reg, Walbro Pump, De-cat, HKS Hiper, TMI 141S Turbo (V, similar to TD05/06/20G Turbo)

Only hope it will hold together on standard internals
Might get BR to map to 1.4bar max to be on the safe side

Andy.F

Paul

If you read back the thread you will see my recommendations for this turbo with regard to mapping and boost.
Surge just is not an issue at this level, so until something makes more boost earlier with a similar top end output then there is no disadvantage running the 20G.

Andy

Andy.F

Pickle

The TMi was an early alternative to the 20G, you can pull the boost in early but top end power is down a bit as the compressor wheel is less efficient.

Andy

Pavlo

The bit where you recommend that we don't run too much boost too soon? But now you're saying that that this turbo is good because it makes good boost so early?

ANd I don't consider that for a turbo to be better it must make as much top end power. Most people that have a 20g aren't getting the most the turbo can supply, so what's the point in having one if you are such a person?

Some people are buying the 20g, then running only 1.4 bar with standard headers because they are worried about their engine. I suppose that is somone really wants one then there is a little you can do.

This is my last word on this thread; If you really want 400hp from a 2.0 the 20g is for you. If you only want about 370-380hp then there IS something better.

Paul

tweenierob

Late night posting from me must have been tired

I think the point is as said, how many people that have bought 20G turbo's push it to over 400hp? You win Andy, i am wrong that you can buy a turbo that will produce 440hp that is cheaper than yours, mind you.. i do believe the same turbo can be supplied cheaper, does that count?

I think a lot can be said when buying a NEW turbo over a Recon turbo, which one sounds better? lol
Out of interest what bearings do you use for the rebuild Andy? 360thrust?

Rob

dmross

you could buy a smaller turbo...but after you become used to the power you will wish you had just gotten the 20G.

I run 1.0-1.4 bar on 98RON on a TD05H-20g and have never knocked. On 105RON it feels unbelievable. Andy, do you remember the last run before the clutch slipped? I think we made 300whp at 1.0 bar on 105RON! The car made 326whp and the clutch started slipping when we turned the boost up. I am pretty confident that on 105RON/1.4bar the car is producing 400+ flywheel hp.

tweenierob

I should hope so on 105Ron!!!!!!!

Rob

dmross

Also, to stay on topic regarding the thread subject, in my opinion this is a great turbo for a 2.0l. Not to mention the reputation Mitsu turbo's have for being bulletproof.

Andy.F

Exactly Paul
No other 410bhp (optimax) turbo is producing 1.4 bar at such a low rpm, what I recommend is just being sensible, don't try and overdo it by mapping to achieve say 1.8 bar at such a low rpm, it will go there but it will surge on some set ups. Most cars will however pull 1.6 no problem, I have very few customers wanting to run more boost than this on std internals, I think thats wise.

Andy

Just to add, for those unaware of what surge is, it is a blowing back of compressed air past the compressor blades, sounds like a fast "choo choo choo"
It doesn't cause any harm to the engine but can shorten the life of the turbo.
I've never had one come back due to a surge related failure and they are all guaranteed for 12 months, even when used for racing.

Paul, your own Garrett/TD05 hybrid surged badly on your 2.5 and Garretts latest hi tech GT30r will surge on my 2.3 if I try to run too much boost at low RPM, this is despite the manufacturers best efforts with a massive surge ported housing.

911

I'm almost scared to entre the 'conversation', but as a purchaser of the '20g':

1
I have the 20g and will get Andy to map it to a reasonable level (say 360bhp/310lbft) while i have the Sti 5 speeder trans.
2
With a 6 speeder I would hope to remap (and with an avcr) the turbo/mods to 'max' the potential.
3
The 20g will allow me to start at a low level and extend the package as other parts go on the car.I don't have to buy another turbo.
If that seems crazy so be it, but I'm comfortable with the game plan.
4
I look forward to driving the car to hill climb competition, racing, and driving home, 11 times and 3000 miles a year. That is what my car is for.

911 (love the tech bits of the thread.)

madou

911

As a meat and two veg. TD05H-16g purchaser I decided

1. TD05H-16g flowed 520 cfm at 1 bar vs 360 cfm at 1 bar for TD04 => potential hp would seem to be 245 * (520/360) = c. 350 bhp

http://www.deadboltspeed.com/comparison.htm

2. TD05H-16g can generate enough torque to break my 5 speed UK gearbox

3. If I wanted more I would get at TD05H-18g => potential hp 245 * ( 590/360 ) = c. 400 bhp

http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05h-18g-cfm.gif

4. I look forward to driving my car on the road without it being in bits too often

How they laughed when I said bunfight earlier on ...

Andy.F

Madou, are you suggesting the maximum output of a td04 is 245bhp ?

Turbo calculations are not as simple as your figures above I'm afraid.
The flow at 1 bar doesn't matter one bit unless your maximum boost is actually only going to be 1 bar, the compressor efficiency at the chosen PR and flow has a massive effect.
The 18G graph shown on the stealth site is just an estimate, quote - " made by squeezing a 20g map"

Andy

madou

Depends on how much you pay the rolling road operator, they must be very expensive in Cheltenham, due to the cost of entertaining at the Ladies' College

Agreed, with a UK engine and TMIC I look at around 1.2 bar max, people do use 18g, although ponies are larger in America, not Shetland, more Quarter Horse or Paint

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645436

Bob Rawle

I've mapped loads of cars with these turbos on using Link, Motec and oem ecu's, some Andy has supplied, some Lateral have suppied, in all cases I will say "they are not a 400 bhp turbo". Now yes there are cars that have achieved that .... but NOT with pump fuel, and certainly not with any degree of decent safety marging, fwiw its my view this is a 380 bhp turbo unless you use an exotic fuel strategy. Surge is a big issue, once you are used to them then you can map round it.
I think that its a value for money turbo at 380 bhp, does it v well too, however 400 bhp is not achievable on most cars and its about time that was said so I have said it, apologies if that jangles anyones nerves. When asked for my opinion, depending on mods, I usually suggest its the option to go for so no axe to grind trying to push alternates btw.

400 bhp is ok for std internals given the right model year and model however thats not P1 territory, rods are too weak assuming torque follows.

So on a std P1 engine, it will very much depend on what comp ratio etc its running, we will see tomorrow morning though. See you then Raj

bob

Andy.F

No problem Bob if thats your findings.
I keep records of all the dyno results cars have had with this turbo.
There must be an awful lot of people lying about the fuel they use to obtain their figures
One for Bob http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=281313 A car and owner you know well !

Andy

P.Cole

its the 350 ft/lb's im happy with whats a type 25 get

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

we will see a true figure when i get my car on the rollers as i ony use optimax and it holds 1.4bar tailing off to 1.36 bar at the redline she gets what she gets to be honest ill be happy with 360bhp but i really couldnt care

911

If i end up with a '350/350' conclusion then I (not my trans) will be very very happy.
A torquey motor will be fab on the hills, huge 'only for an instant' bhp is not of much interest.(or use)
Carman had a killer Sti RA v3. Stock engine(turbo,injectors), FMIC, GEMS, water injection/Walbro/ decat 3''/cone filter gave 348/340 lbft and it absolutely flew, matching an EVO5 with 460 bhp/lag on GEMS and a lot more....

911

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

would somebody clarify something for me please?
std. td05 is 16g?
16g refers to the size of the compressor wheel?
Andy's modified td05 is 20g?
which is the compressor wheel from a td06?
so the larger the compressor wheel, the larger the volume of flow and hence the more power attainable?

I ask because its getting near bonus time and the car is probably going to be treated to a few more mods and another wave of Andy's magic wand.
Obviously turbo upgrade (from my td05F/E) would be an easy trip up the power scale and this kind of thread is very useful for information.
I see on nasioc they are very fond of the FPGreen and Deadbolt blowers, yet they are not so common/popular over this side.
any reason why?

Andy

Andy.F

Correct, it is also more efficient at the higher flow rates, this means the turbine doesn't need to work so hard to spin the compressor so the wastegate can be further open, this reduces the exhaust backpressure which means more flow through the engine for the same boost level, more flow means more power. The efficiency gains also mean the intercooler has less work to do and charge temps are cooler at the same boost.

FP and deadbolt are suppliers, you can get the same turbos over here under different names although they tend to be more expensive. (isn't everything !)

Andy