Shame it didn't finish him off...
24 June 2004, 07:39 PM
#31
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MJ - I applaud your honesty with the illogical nature of the the moral choice to go fishing despite the cruelty.
But to be fair you have no idea If I go bull-fighting, fox hunting, fishing or choose to get my outdoor kicks growing lupins
But to be fair you have no idea If I go bull-fighting, fox hunting, fishing or choose to get my outdoor kicks growing lupins
24 June 2004, 07:42 PM
#32
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I applaud your honesty with the illogical nature of the the moral choice to go fishing despite the cruelty
Maybe I'll take it as a compliment
24 June 2004, 08:02 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by dsmith
So explain the differences to me (as a poor simpleton) between spaniards sticking sharp things in a bull and englishman sticking sharp things into fish.
Deano
Deano
The other is geared around a somewhat less agressive and rather more natural 'free range + organic' dinner gathering provison! It also involves deriving zero pleasure from another entity's pain or end of life. There are no voyeurs present.
I know which of those is the healthy option - both for the hunter's self respect and the 'prey'. Malditas sin respecta o cojones... (wnkrs without respect or *****) that's how I see it amigos (and the same goes for fat UK businessmen wearing red jackets terrorising a CAT)!
24 June 2004, 10:17 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by **************
Can we have a new sport where we fire Spaniards out of Challenger tanks in Iraq?
We could but they left already m8
24 June 2004, 10:58 PM
#36
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Ahhh. So if the spaniards merely chased the bull - poked a few spears in it - then patched it up - so they could do it all again in a weeks time. That wouldnt be cruel at all. Splendid. This is helping my understanding of the key differences no end.
Deano
Deano
wrxtankie can we add Swiss Germans to the list to fire from the Challengers?
I'll personally ship one over I have in mind
24 June 2004, 11:07 PM
#37
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Diesel - So its dinner gathering ....but nothing gets killed ?
And No voyuers ?? - Weekly matches and competitions seems like voyuerism to me. As does endless TV programmes glorifying the capture of fish. Now, being bored, I do sometimes watch these programmes and the hook definately looks sharp - and definately doesn't alway get snagged in the pain free lips.
Which, in turn,begs the question.. If they have scientifically proven a hook in the lips is pain free - they must surely have proven what areas cause pain (so they know the difference ?). So to provide the evidence to validate your harmless and cruelty free pass time - some fish have have had to be subjected to scientifically acknowledged pain.
It is certainly a bit of a moral maze that leads out the far side withthe view that Fishing is "better" than Bull fighting.
Deano
And No voyuers ?? - Weekly matches and competitions seems like voyuerism to me. As does endless TV programmes glorifying the capture of fish. Now, being bored, I do sometimes watch these programmes and the hook definately looks sharp - and definately doesn't alway get snagged in the pain free lips.
Which, in turn,begs the question.. If they have scientifically proven a hook in the lips is pain free - they must surely have proven what areas cause pain (so they know the difference ?). So to provide the evidence to validate your harmless and cruelty free pass time - some fish have have had to be subjected to scientifically acknowledged pain.
It is certainly a bit of a moral maze that leads out the far side withthe view that Fishing is "better" than Bull fighting.
Deano
24 June 2004, 11:13 PM
#38
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B2Z - I'm sorry cant see the fault in the analogy.
You stick something sharp in a fish. Drag it out of the water. mend the damage. Put it back. Try to do the same thing next week.
If the spaniards merely injured the bull with no intent to kill. Then gave it vet attention so it could return to the action later. then that (to me at least) would seem to be similair ? (I do of course accept this isnt what happens - but I'm trying to work out what is "cruel" and what is "a happy weekend pastime")
Deano
p.s. I'm 110% behind the whole blind cheating swiss ref in a challenger tank gun barrel concept
You stick something sharp in a fish. Drag it out of the water. mend the damage. Put it back. Try to do the same thing next week.
If the spaniards merely injured the bull with no intent to kill. Then gave it vet attention so it could return to the action later. then that (to me at least) would seem to be similair ? (I do of course accept this isnt what happens - but I'm trying to work out what is "cruel" and what is "a happy weekend pastime")
Deano
p.s. I'm 110% behind the whole blind cheating swiss ref in a challenger tank gun barrel concept
24 June 2004, 11:28 PM
#39
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a fish's natural habitat - a pond.
a bull's natural habitat - a field.
how many bullfights have you seen in a field?
sorry, no comparison.
a bull's natural habitat - a field.
how many bullfights have you seen in a field?
sorry, no comparison.
24 June 2004, 11:37 PM
#41
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MJ - A "Field" - you mean an entirely man made concept for the easier cultivation of crops or rearing of animals for food. Doesnt sound like a very natural habitat to me.
I'd say a good 75% of the fishing in my local area takes place in entirely man made environements (gravel pits etc). A good deal in artifically stocked and controlled rivers/lakes. Some, it has to be said, in the Sea which in this context hasn't been artifically created.
PeteT - Nope. I like a good steak or a nice salmon fillet as much as anyone else. I have no proof of course but I suspect B2Z isnt a vegetarian either -yet still sees fit to start threads in support of fishing and against bull fighting. Both fishing (where the fish are returned unharmed ) and bull fighting having exactly nowt to do with the average spectator/participant providing food for their family.
Deano
I'd say a good 75% of the fishing in my local area takes place in entirely man made environements (gravel pits etc). A good deal in artifically stocked and controlled rivers/lakes. Some, it has to be said, in the Sea which in this context hasn't been artifically created.
PeteT - Nope. I like a good steak or a nice salmon fillet as much as anyone else. I have no proof of course but I suspect B2Z isnt a vegetarian either -yet still sees fit to start threads in support of fishing and against bull fighting. Both fishing (where the fish are returned unharmed ) and bull fighting having exactly nowt to do with the average spectator/participant providing food for their family.
Deano
Last edited by dsmith; 24 June 2004 at 11:41 PM.
24 June 2004, 11:42 PM
#42
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Deano there is a big difference here between carp fishing and coarse fishing which generally involves much smaller fish like roach etc.
Carp have huge mouths for their size, 99% of the time they are hooked in the corner of the lip, there is no blood, no damage to repair, barbless hooks are used at all times. The fish is returned to the water asap and lives many many years to get to the size they do. If the fish was damaged, caused pain/stress whatever during being caught do you not think this would have a severe detrimental effect on its growth and the condition of the fish?
Coarse fishing which I used to do I agree involves catching much smaller fish which can and do end up suffering due to the fact they swallow the hook and often get hooked in their gut. I no longer do this type of fishing due to it being damaging to the fish and the fact its no where near as comparable to the enjoyment of catching carp. Smaller fish are also not as hardy and as stong as carp and therefore can die quite easily after being caught. I do not agree with this type of fishing anymore as I have seen plenty of dead roach that have died after being caught. Thats not what fishing is about unless you catch trout/salmon to take home and eat.
The damage, if any, that is repaired on carp is normally from infection from the water where the scales have been infected. Like I say the majority of carp anglers carry a small bottle of liquid which you put a few drops on the specific area of damage and the fish is returned.
We have every reason to make sure the fish is in the best condition possible and no injury is caused to the fish. We all want to catch the best examples of the fish. We want them to grow as big as possible, we want them to be as strong and as healthy as possible. Carp anglers will take great care of a carp when caught because of how much it is valued, and one day it might just be the record fish!
We do not go stabbing the fish repeatedly like a matador does to a bull, the fish is hooked once in the lip, it is reeled into the bank, weighed and returned with no blood and no pain. This in my view is not even in the same ball park as a matador repeatedly stabbing a bull and then killing it.
Carp have huge mouths for their size, 99% of the time they are hooked in the corner of the lip, there is no blood, no damage to repair, barbless hooks are used at all times. The fish is returned to the water asap and lives many many years to get to the size they do. If the fish was damaged, caused pain/stress whatever during being caught do you not think this would have a severe detrimental effect on its growth and the condition of the fish?
Coarse fishing which I used to do I agree involves catching much smaller fish which can and do end up suffering due to the fact they swallow the hook and often get hooked in their gut. I no longer do this type of fishing due to it being damaging to the fish and the fact its no where near as comparable to the enjoyment of catching carp. Smaller fish are also not as hardy and as stong as carp and therefore can die quite easily after being caught. I do not agree with this type of fishing anymore as I have seen plenty of dead roach that have died after being caught. Thats not what fishing is about unless you catch trout/salmon to take home and eat.
The damage, if any, that is repaired on carp is normally from infection from the water where the scales have been infected. Like I say the majority of carp anglers carry a small bottle of liquid which you put a few drops on the specific area of damage and the fish is returned.
We have every reason to make sure the fish is in the best condition possible and no injury is caused to the fish. We all want to catch the best examples of the fish. We want them to grow as big as possible, we want them to be as strong and as healthy as possible. Carp anglers will take great care of a carp when caught because of how much it is valued, and one day it might just be the record fish!
We do not go stabbing the fish repeatedly like a matador does to a bull, the fish is hooked once in the lip, it is reeled into the bank, weighed and returned with no blood and no pain. This in my view is not even in the same ball park as a matador repeatedly stabbing a bull and then killing it.
25 June 2004, 08:11 AM
#43
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I went to a bullfight out of curiosity in Algeciras some years ago when on duty in Gibraltar. I thought it was such a cruel spectacle that I left the place and never felt tempted to see another one. I confess I did feel quite pleased when one of the bullfighters got gored by one of the bulls.
Les
Les
25 June 2004, 11:29 AM
#44
I went to see a bull fight in Madrid in May. Huge excited crowd, and it was actually quite enjoyable and interesting to see a real bull fight.
Of course it's a bit cruel, but then again I don't think it's *that much more* cruel than just eating a bull (which I'm sure most people here have no problems with). You can say all you want that the killing of the bulls/cows/whatever you eat is 'humane', but it still *DIES*, so not really that much different. Did you know that the bulls are actually chopped up after and then eaten (I guess they sell them on somewhere)?
I also think that you people should remember that it's a different culture, and just because it wouldn't be accepted in England (due to cultural differences), it doesn't automatically mean it is wrong.
Humans have killed animals for as long as we have existed (and I'm sure some of the killing has given pleasure to the hunters), and I don't really think bull fights are that much different.
Of course it's a bit cruel, but then again I don't think it's *that much more* cruel than just eating a bull (which I'm sure most people here have no problems with). You can say all you want that the killing of the bulls/cows/whatever you eat is 'humane', but it still *DIES*, so not really that much different. Did you know that the bulls are actually chopped up after and then eaten (I guess they sell them on somewhere)?
I also think that you people should remember that it's a different culture, and just because it wouldn't be accepted in England (due to cultural differences), it doesn't automatically mean it is wrong.
Humans have killed animals for as long as we have existed (and I'm sure some of the killing has given pleasure to the hunters), and I don't really think bull fights are that much different.
25 June 2004, 12:32 PM
#45
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Of course it's a bit cruel, but then again I don't think it's *that much more* cruel than just eating a bull
so you enjoy bullfighting, but dont compare it to a sunday roast
25 June 2004, 01:05 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by mj
hang on, aren't bulls usually dead when we eat them.
Don't really have a problem with bull fighting- you can call it cruel but you don't have to watch it and I don't try and criticise other races' cultures.
I don't think you can draw a line between cruelty and size of animal. Its the same as fishing and cats catching mice imo.
Cruelty to me is humans cutting other peoples heads off for ideology- but thats a different matter entirely.
25 June 2004, 02:04 PM
#47
Originally Posted by mj
hang on, aren't bulls usually dead when we eat them
It's not more cruel than say cutting a chickens neck and letting it bleed to death (I believe this is how Halal chicken is made, but I may be wrong), but I don't ever see posts about Halal meat...
25 June 2004, 02:17 PM
#48
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ok, so they end up dead anyway.
bit of a daft analogy:
You are a slave and have been sentenced to death. Would you prefer to meet your maker in the Roman Collusseum, at the hands of lions,bears & gladiators - or would you prefer to go to france to face the guillotine?
bit of a daft analogy:
You are a slave and have been sentenced to death. Would you prefer to meet your maker in the Roman Collusseum, at the hands of lions,bears & gladiators - or would you prefer to go to france to face the guillotine?
25 June 2004, 04:22 PM
#52
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The time it takes the bull to die when the sword has been stuck into its back is long enough to be really unpleasant for it while it is bleeding to death internally. It has also had to endure the debilitating pain of having its shoulder muscles being damaged by spears. If you think that is a humane way to kill a creature then you need to just take a moment and think through it while imagining it was happening to you. All for the chance of the matador to show us all how brave he is and to satisfy the crowd's blood lust!
If you want to eat an animal then it should be put to death instantly in such a way that it does not realise what is happening to it.
Big difference there Henrik, and I don't feel very impressed at the thought of causing a creature to be bled to death either.
Les
If you want to eat an animal then it should be put to death instantly in such a way that it does not realise what is happening to it.
Big difference there Henrik, and I don't feel very impressed at the thought of causing a creature to be bled to death either.
Les
25 June 2004, 05:31 PM
#54
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do any of you "bull fighting is the same as killing for food" people have a pet?
if you do...imagine its very ill and you take Rover to the vet...vet says "nothing we can do.....its best to put him to sleep"
he then pulls out a sword and stabs the dog in the back "this wont take to long" he says "you can pay while we wait for him to die"
muppets
T
if you do...imagine its very ill and you take Rover to the vet...vet says "nothing we can do.....its best to put him to sleep"
he then pulls out a sword and stabs the dog in the back "this wont take to long" he says "you can pay while we wait for him to die"
muppets
T
25 June 2004, 06:56 PM
#56
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Woahh. Actually do some work for a day and after useful post from B2Z, suddenly we're stabbing dogs in the back before settling down for a steak so rare the matador is still standing next to it. 
25 June 2004, 07:31 PM
#57
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JON DIMIS/AP
July 6 - July 12
Our picks of the week's best pictures
Bull: 1 Bullfighter: 0
Bullfighter Pepin Liria is pinned to the ground by a bull during the San Fermin Festival in Pamplona, Spain. Lira was not injured and was able to continue the fight (Monday, July 8, 2002)
</FONT>
You think that's bad, you want to see a disgruntled roach!
25 June 2004, 07:32 PM
#58
Leslie: Well, I don't think that there is such a huge difference. Killing is killing.
Tiggs: Ok, let's play this stupid analogy game
That's like saying: The killing of Nick Berg was worse than the killing of the kids that died instantly in a suicide bombing in Israel.
I don't think it is. They all died, and to me it doesn't matter how they did, just that they did.
I would be opposed to it if they wasted the bull, but it isn't wasted.
Btw, why don't we see anti-halal-meat threads?
Tiggs: Ok, let's play this stupid analogy game
That's like saying: The killing of Nick Berg was worse than the killing of the kids that died instantly in a suicide bombing in Israel.
I don't think it is. They all died, and to me it doesn't matter how they did, just that they did.
I would be opposed to it if they wasted the bull, but it isn't wasted.
Btw, why don't we see anti-halal-meat threads?
25 June 2004, 08:01 PM
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why don't we see anti-halal-meat threads?
, If Halal meat was banned there would be a major blowout by the people that eat it. If it happens that they manage to ban it, then good, but there would be a serious amounts of votes lost for whoever implemented the ban IMO.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm
26 June 2004, 09:06 AM
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Henrik
If that is how you really feel about the death of a creature or how it dies, then you obviously are a man of no compassion. I have no quarrel with eating meat or fish etc. but I personally could not live with myself if its death caused it to suffer while it occurred.
I regret that you are clearly unable to discern the difference or the importance of that.
Les
If that is how you really feel about the death of a creature or how it dies, then you obviously are a man of no compassion. I have no quarrel with eating meat or fish etc. but I personally could not live with myself if its death caused it to suffer while it occurred.
I regret that you are clearly unable to discern the difference or the importance of that.
Les