Kev

Sounds good value ......

Thanks for the info Martin, I do have a few reservations they are based on the last couple of posts really.

1. It's made and sold for the mould industry from what I can see with "releasing agents", what long term effects will they have on paintwork ?? "If" they do damage paintwork would they have any technical backup ?? or would they just turn around and say it's for moulds not cars ??

2. Cheaper than WW it is for sure .. but with WW you also pay for the service, ie technical backup and you know that it has been tried and tested on car paintwork with great success ....

I know Porche and other top marques are buying WW stuff by the bucket load, I've used both AG and WW on different types of paintwork and I have to admit the WW wax is by far the most expensive BUT it produces the finest results .... and with telephone weekend backup for those major car care problems ..... I know what I'll stick with.

I think we will have to see if there are any long term problems ??

IMHO of course

K

MTR

MTR

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Kev

MTR ...

Our posts crossed !! I see now what you mean about "releasing agent" ....

We'll have to see how it performs ... begs the question ...

How did you find out about the stuff ??

K

Mark Underwood

MTR

Thanks for the technical information....juicy reading indeed especially for me.

We use pure natural ingredients and natural oils mixed with at least 40% No.1 yellow carnauba wax. This explains to you why our products are that more expensive.

HONEY WAX: CHEMICAL FAMILY- Petroleum hydrocarbons and waxes. The answer lies here in its cheapness..the use of petroleum hydrocarbons and NOT NATURAL OILS.
The smell is of petroleum hydrocarbons and can lead to skin problems thru prolonged use.

Now then....if I were to make say my Merlin wax with hydrocarbons and not with natural oils then the price would tumble very considerably.

We have in our range a paste wax made by Meguiars called HI Tech yellow wax and it has a similar composition to Honey wax but has a lot of oils in it as well hydrocarbons as the solvent. It is priced at a similar level as Honey wax and is around the same size.

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

Nick West

Don't know whether this is way off track, but an ex-neighbour of mine worked at British Aerospace, and brought some aero-polish/wax home from work. (No idea what its use was by BAE).

He had the same idea, so much cheaper (ie free for him!) than the Autoglym and others he used on his cars (Vauxhall Vectra and BMW Z3). The stuff worked a treat, but after 3 or 4 months the paint seemed to go 'milky'. He could polish it out using MER or other abrasive polishes but never got such a deep shine even when he went back to Autoglym.

Personally I still use Autoglym. At £7 for a bottle that does 4-6 'cars', its more than cheap enough?

Mark Underwood

APJ and MTR

There are great deal of carnauba wax based products that are available on the market.

The use of natural ingredients (oils etc) WITHOUT the use of hydrocarbon solvents is very unusual.

Carnauba wax has been used in car care products for around a 100yrs becuase it has fantastic shine/gloss properties as well as providing protection for the paint.

However consumer demand has shown that such products can be difficult to apply and hence over time manufacturers both here and abroad have sought way in which to make car care products to a price as well as ease of application.

With todays modern paints which are far more delicate than of yesteryear. The use of abrasives, silicones and solvents are harmful not only to the paint but also to the user and the environment.

Most car wax manufacturers like myself use the HIGHEST GRADE CARNAUBA which is No1 Yellow. From this grade it can be further refined to a much purer state and the net result is what is known as white or ivory No1 carnauba and this is very expensive indeed.

In light of what has been said I am now considering making a carnauba wax that has some solvent in it to reduce the initial cost of the product and aslo to reduce the manufacturing cost and hence the retail price will tumble.

Our waxes are somewhat unique and are like Zymol, Pinnacle, P21S etc in that we all use natural ingredients rather than hydrocarbons.

Our waxes as well as those mentioned have absolutely zero cleaning ability and will happily seal in water marks etc producing a lovely shine but the cr*p is still there producing what I call shiney ****e (pardon me).

Solvents on todays paints in particular water based paints have the effect of "sucking" out the natural oils in the paint particularly if they use such things like chalk as a drying and or abrasive agent. The net results are swirls and dryed paintwork (faded) thru the use of heavy solvent based products.

Ouir system now called the "Le Mans" system tackles the issues using reverse technology by cleansing the paint using emulsifying agents to "melt/dissolve the dirt" that cling onto and is in the paint and we do this several times a year. Doing this does not remove pigment or damage the paint and is fully paintable and bodyshop safe. The emollient oils in the cleanse sink into the paint replenishing the lost oils that were there originally, providing a bounce for the paint so that swirls will swell and close over and heal themselves rather than using solvent and abrasives to shave off the top microns.

Similarly the waxes will still "feed" the paint cos of the natural oils that are used and the high content of No1 Yellow or a mix of No1 Yellow and white or pure white No1 carnauba wax will provide fantastic levels of additional gloss as well as enhanced levels of protection. It is fair to assume the higher the content of carnaiba the better the protection.

We have in our range Meguiars waxes in particular Gold Class and paste format Hi Tech yellow wax. The both use carnauba no1 yellow (the highest grade) and they too use hydrocarbon solvent. The prices are similar to that of honeywax as well as the quantity. They provide excellent levels of shine, available off the shelf etc etc.

However, the purists amongst you and elsewhere have noted that the or our other waxes that have natural oils and high percentage content carnauba wax produce an even more awesome shine and longer lasting protection.

Having now assed the composition of honey wax to hitech wax and gold class wax they are indeeed similar in their makeup and very similar in price and in quantity.

So why have you not bought this wax or these waxes all available mail order? And to boot you get SIDC discount of 15% plus tons of free technical help and great service.

Our range of products is wide and extensive with products to suit all levels of expenditure as well as desired results.

Regards and thanks for the friendly educational debate. WOW

APJ

Errr, so what's so bad about petroleum hydrocarbons? I don't intend to sniff the stuff all day

I've mailed the manufacturer in the US, this is what they've said:
"This is in answer to your recent inquiry with regard to the composition of our product, Honey Wax.

Honey Wax is compounded with strictly carnauba wax in the form of a paste to function as a mold release agent when manufacturing fiberglass reinforced composite parts. The other components, which are mentioned as being wetting and dispersing agents, are basically materials to facilitate the buffing of the wax once it has been applied to the substrate, which is done by hand avoiding the use of a mechanical device for this purpose. Honey Wax will provide a durable carnauba base coating having a glossy appearance, and we are not surprised to hear of your results. Although here in the U.S. we have heard people using Honey Wax for automotive applications with similar results as yours, we have never marketed this product for this application nor do we have a substantial history of Honey Wax being used as an automotive car wax. I have forwarded this information to our UK distributor who will contact you within the next few days"

Will keep you posted . . . .

MTR

MTR

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MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

APJ

Thanks for the info Mark. Really ditto to what Martin has said. There are probably quite a few of us who want to use a high-grade carnauba wax on our cars (especially in preference to the 'off the shelf' products from Halfords) but do not feel that we can justify the cost for some of the products lauded on this bbs.

Honeywax appears to be a good compromise on price/performance but is not marketed specifically as an automative wax. If products specifically designed for automotive use are available at the same price point for the same quantity and the same carnauba content, then that can only be good news.

In a mail today, Speciality Products, the US manufacturer have mentioned that they can supply a product specifically for cars - needless to say I've asked for more info.

Andrew

sunilp

You lot make me laugh. You want to own hi performance cars yet you skimp on how to care for the car for the sake of a few quid here and there. Why feel outraged at a pot of WoW for 45 quid that will last for ages. I have applied 7 coats to my car so far and its barely used 5% of the contents of the tub. I can phone Mark on a sunday whilst he is in Sainsburys and he will still spend half an hour or so talking me through what to do. I am sure they havent spent time, money and effort formulating something that others claim to be able to match for a fraction of the cost and encourage others to use it on this BBS when they are unable to offer any sort of back up if things go pear shaped - caveat emptor!

Mark Underwood

MTR

If you care to look at my site you will find that I stock Meguiars from the states and that we are an authorised distributor of meguiars in the UK and import the product via the company you mention and we are the southern uK distributors.

We also stock Zymol, Dr Wack from germany as well as countless others that we do not list as we are a specialist importer and supply such products to order only.

Try ordering from ther states and then see for yourself what is involved with card purchases, import duties etc etc as well bleedin expensive freight. My last order from the states cost me $360 for the product and over half as much again in frieght and the £56 in duties.

If I got it or something near what you wnat you can have it in 3 days or so without any of that hassle etc.
Choice is yours.

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

APJ

Folks . . . just remember that at the end of the day when we humbly ask nice Mr Car Dealer for a trade-in price, I doubt if he is going to give a t055 what wax has been used.

All I'm after is something better then the stuff in Halfords, for not very much more money. Just because I own a high-performance car does not mean I have to buy 'the best' premium-priced product. If I can buy something that makes the Scoob look shiney, and have change for a pair of shoes for the kids, then I'm happy! Not everyone can take a 'bu66er the cost' attitude.

Sunil

I think that pretty much everything that can be said, has been said.

Personally, I'm going to ask the bodyshop I use for their insight and then buy the product I feel most comfortable using - probably much like everyone here.

Sunil

I think that pretty much everything that can be said, has been said.

Personally, I'm going to ask the bodyshop I use for their insight and then buy the product I feel most comfortable using - probably much like everyone here.

sunilp

MTR - i see what youre saying but to me "joe public" it didnt come across like that in essence. Anyhow, i have no reason to argue with someone i dont know either - but as someone else mentioned - what is the long term consequence of using this stuff on your paint?...can you answer that before you recommend short cuts to other owners?...

There is a thread along the same lines on 22b recommending Eibach springs without the need for changing shock absorbers - so a load of people go off and do it and it all seems wonderful - then a load of them come back and say that "the dampers are struggling", "the car handles like pooh", "it feels unsafe"..etc etc etc and they have to go and either fork out for uprated shock absorbers or go back to the std setup - either way its cost them a lot more than they bargained for.

I am not well off - i earn a relatively modest income - my problem is i am too much of a perfectionist and always want more, i work hard and when i do something i do it the way i want - unfortunately i am mad about cars! - others spend it on ****, booze, drugs, hi-fi, holidays or whatever - i dont do these things in as much excess so my money goes on my car instead.

This whole Subaru process is a learning curve for me - i wish in many ways i had bought an import, sometimes i wish i had bought a german car, sometimes i wish i hadnt discovered this BBS then my head wouldnt be full of ideas and increased expectations.....such is life! If i chose to have a 2k package sitting in my garage then thats up to me - at least i havent pissed it up the wall or got high off it!

Anyhow, apologies if i offended anyone but i thought this place is about freedom of speech and as free as anyone is to argue the case for something, someone is equally free to argue against it.

To summarise what i said in my original post
1) If you recommend something so much - and beleive me you have because you provide prices, comparisons, contact numbers and detailed chemical spec sheets then you ought to be damn sure - dont claim to be an expert on one hand and then claim, on the other, that youre "no polishing expert".

2) If someones paint ****s up as a result of long term use of an alternative product then they have no comeback against you. If they buy Autglym, Mer, Turtle Wax, Zymol or whatever then if any of these products damage a cars finish then the indvidual does have recourse against an organisation. How would you feel if it was your own cars paint that this happened to and you had to look at it every day?....if you cant afford proper wax then you certainly cant afford a respray.

As they say " a little knowledge is dangerous..."

I will say no more on this subject


[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 27-06-2000).]

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

Bright Kar

Hi MTR,

I have a bit of problem with this thread. For many reasons but mainly its because your are not comparing like with like.

This is going to sound like something that you've heard before but bear with me. Having read a lot of this thread, some important points draw me to a conclusion. First the points:

1) One wax is designed to look after your car’s paintwork and be shinny, the other is designed as a release agent and happens to make things shinny given it helps stuff to come out of the moulds.

2) Some of these waxes share the same ingredients.

3) The company that makes the mold release wax also makes car products.

4) Mold release wax is cheaper than certain car wax that use the same ingredients.

My conclusion is as follows:

It is irrelevant to compare the use of the value Honeywax against ANY other car waxes given that their purpose are not the same. You can pick any two products under the sink, check their ingredients, see that they share one in common and assume that they are for the same purpose. This of course would be idiotic as you may be holding a bottle of washing up liquid and a bottle of oven clean. But this seems to be your primary argument. Just because they share the same base material DOESN’T make them the same type of products – the other ingredients will very much determine how the wax behaves.

Some people have made what appears to be reasonable objections to your trend of thinking. Like “what is it going to do to your car long term”. Your answer is always that they share one ingredient. This, at the moment, seems daft. My thoughts would be, car wax is designed to stay on your car for some time and ingredients should either have neutral effect or even positive effect to the paintwork underneath – not just a shinny coat. There is no evidence that Honeywax behaves in this fashion – if it did, why would the same company market a different product for cars ?.

You have stressed the use of CARNAUBA in Honeywax, but it isnt clear (at least to me unless I didn’t read things properly), how much of this wax as a percentage Honeywax contains.

Credit where credit is due, you have put the stuff on your car.

Now for the other reasons……

Another thing I noticed is your cost consideration. At the most basic level you are saying “why pay more for the same stuff”. Again this would be a fair argument if you were comparing like with like, but you are not - different use and we are unsure about quantity of one of the ingredients. When up against the wall you then started introducing other car waxing products. That would be ok except you know even less about those other products than you do about Honeywax. In essence you wanted cheap Carnauba wax because that is what WW were using as their main ingredient, people weren’t convinced Honeywax and you went off at tangent defensively saying what about product X and company Y that provides products. This wouldn’t be that bad except you never asked for “something cheap” from WW. This seems unfair as you have placed a spotlight on their value of their products (I’m ignoring your comments about service and premium as it is a get out clause ). Why havnt you ever said, ok, I want a product that will protect my car from bird crap, isnt any hassle and if its shiny is a bonus but field the question to all companies including WW. Analyse the findings, let us all know. If WW say I cant make those sort of products and I don’t resell those sort of products fair enough.

The reason I’m responding to this is that I think you are articulate enough to be dangerous Normally I would give a f**k but as it effects a small company and it worries me.

I am in a very difficult situation in that I am a WW user and this will classify me as a brain-washed lemming who is trying to cost justify my purchases which hence render my whole argument void in your eyes .

Anyhow, food for thought.

bkar

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

Marcos

just received my nice (huge) yellow tin of Honey Wax.....for about £11.

One coat was all that was needed to make both me cats nice a shiny :-) - going to try in on the car tomorrow .

marcus

David Lock

Contributors to this thread may be interested in my own "testing" experiment. I have a burgundy Sovereign and my pride and joy a Replica Jaguar SS100 - black with much chrome. I am interested in WW products for the SS100 especially as the long bonnet has a hundred or so air louvres and getting white powder residue from Mer or similar is a nightmare (although Turtle Wax now produce a non-residue wax which seems pretty good).
Reading this thread I bought some Honey Wax and dug out an old bottle of Mer. I cleaned the Sovereign and put Honey Wax on the bonnet and Mer on the boot. Mer was easier to apply and remove but I had to be extra careful not to spill any over the boot edges because of the dreaded white residue. Mer did seem to give a mild cleansing action as well for any dirt that the wash hadn't removed.
Of course having cleaned the car it rained. Both the boot and bonnet collected nice round globules of rainwater although they were more consistently rounder on the bonnet (this is heavy science folks!). Both sections look much better with a wax than they did before but there is really nothing between them.
Conclusion. I will use these waxes on my day to day vehicles but wouldn't risk the non-automotive Honey Wax on my SS100 just in case. I will get some WW product if and when I get time to wade through the catalogue (a bit too much to unravel at first IMHO).
BTW. When I ordered the Honey Wax I did ask if the company employees actually used it themselves on their own vehicles - they would know of its properties and would presumably use this "insider knowledge". This drew a blank.
Happy waxing - David Lock

gregh

>> I will get some WW product if and when I >> get time to wade through the catalogue

Best bet is to talk through with Mark what you want to achieve and he will recommend the best product.

Greg

Bright Kar

Seems a shame that Mark didnt say he uses the highest grade lead as we are missing the entertainment of people sourcing lead very cheaply and rubbing the stuff over their bonnet.

Maybe I ought to make several edits of my original statement.

oh hum..."What we have here, is failure to communicate. Some men, you just cant reach"

bkar

Nightmare

you put wax on cats? You complete b**tard! Im calling the RSPCA

It would probably be very useful for armadillos, however, because then Jaguars couldnt get a purchase on them to open them up. Maybe this should be suggested to the 'i likes armadillos' society??

hmm...not relevant. oh well....

Bright Kar

MORE NEWS MORE NEWS

From the makers of Honeywax here is what they say about their product for cars:

Honey Wax is compounded with strictly carnauba wax in the form of a
paste to function as a mold release agent when manufacturing fiberglass
reinforced composite parts. The other components, which are mentioned
as being wetting and dispersing agents, are basically materials to
facilitate the buffing of the wax once it has been applied to the
substrate, which is done by hand avoiding the use of a mechanical
device. Honey Wax will provide a durable carnauba base coating having a
glossy appearance. Although here in the U.S. we have heard people using
Honey Wax for automotive applications with excellent results, we have
never marketed this product for this application nor do we have a
substantial history of Honey Wax being used as an automotive car wax,
and we cannot guarantee the results."

I guess the last line says it all.

This is from an email they sent me after leaving some enquiries with them. Now I have a point of contact I will get more info.

bkar

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

Bright Kar

MTR

Who stole your dummy

Anyway that put me in my place. Teach me for missing a message. Still, the punchline, which I found interesting is different (I know, a weak comeback).

David Lock - I wouldnt read anything into the "blank" as its only minority of the population that regularly wash their car yet alone wax it. Also, if you work making the stuff you probably wont to use it in your time.

bkar