Taff107

fatherpierre and some others have made a few good points. The main one being that the Army today is hugely over-tasked and trying to maintain discipline / look after thousands of servicemen who do not want to be there, would very quickly bring it to its knees.
The Army has changed so much in the last few years (certainly in the last 12 that I've been in) with the introduction of Human rights which, in essence, contests a lot of Military Law.
Youngsters joining today know this too which doesn't bode well for the Army IMO.

Jerome

Indeed, it may be, but I know of a guy who got to go on a trip to Scotland for eight days as part of his CS. He was one of the adult supervisors on an Outward Bound trip I went on years ago. Hardly much of a punishment and he accumulated around 192 hours in the process.

Why does it not surprise me that this happens. Typical of modern Britain. Compare the apathy of failing to enforce CS with the vigour that they pursue motorists who've committed minor offences.

Even if he did report, you'd only produce a fitter more dangerous chav.

Jerome

When I was a recruit in 1987 they were only just beginning to clamp down on Army bullying. I still got a hefty punch in the stomach (which I chose rather than running round the parade ground 25 times) for having a button undone. My instructor was pretty sadistic, but all part of the toughening up I think is required if you want to be a soldier who has to be able to bayonet someone in the face.

When I trained recruits in about 1997, we had to issue a warning to a recruit if we wanted to straighten their collar because this involved touching them or their clothing. We weren't allowed to make them run in full NBC gear either (but I did anyway).

At one regular army training centre fairly recently, they brought in a red/yellow card system. Basically, if the big nasty horrid instructor did something the recruit didn't like, the recruit could show the instructor a yellow card. If the instructor did another really beastly thing to the same recruit, within a certain timeframe, the recruit could show the red card. If the instructor got too many yellow cards, or any red cards, he or she was in front of the boss. I'm sure all of the recruits who graduated under this system will be fine, upstanding and brave troops who would never shy away from danger in a battlefield situation. Nah, they'd simply show the enemy a red card...

wrxtankie

It was at winchester jerome, and your right about how good these recruits are we didnt have four of them wimp out of going to iraq last year.

Unfortunately this is what our PC country is doing to our armed forces.

Its all going a bit touchy feely there there mummy make it better.
Its changed in the last 11 years ive been in.

Nothing wrong with a good slap when you had deserved it but not any more thats bullying.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I was a recruit in 1987 and we used to run in boots and combat trousers and get shouted at alot.

If we fecked up we had circuits to run with a GPMG above our heads if we misshandled a weapon we got to run circuits with a GPMG above our heads, if your bed wasn't made well enough it went out the window.

In Cyprus we were running in the middle of July in NBC suits and resperators with webbing etc.

In the Falklands we were out in full kit for a 10 mile run the 2nd day we were in theatre.

we had BFTs and if you weren't quick enough you did it again, the ICFT which you had 2 hours to complete carrying full kit, se did in 1,27 and got a bollocking for being to slow.

I got beasted by the RPs fro not carrying a pair of shorts properley in the mid day sun in Cyprus.

paying visits the the Guardroom was not a pleasent experience even when you were only going out for the night.

It was all worth it when I got to be guard commander at the Depot though pay back time.

And like I said in my previous post it doesn't have to be Military NAT SERV, civil Nat Serv will also be beneficial, like someone already said the youth of today couldn't handle military nat serv anyway.

66 Blue

what would a black/Asian person do? they wolud probably be better off going to watch Millwall FC play, probably get less abuse there than in the army.....

BMWhere?

Black/Asian people may get stick in the Army now as they are very much a minority. If every British person did National Service, I doubt there would be much of a racism problem in the Army and it would probably lead to much better racial integration in society as a whole. IMHO.

My biggest issue against National Service is the devaluation of our current military. Any National Service would need to be on a reserves/TA type basis, so they get the training/discipline without being an actual part of the army. Its also important to not consider military as the only National Service option. Community service would also make up a significant part.

Who would pay for it? Hopefully it would pay for itself. Many on the community type jobs that can be done are already done by higher paid older people or immigrants, so would possibly result in a saving. If the scheme results as intended by reducing crime, then this would also help pay for it. The additional exercise that people will get will result in a healthier population and further savings to the NHS.

As for the military's current recruitment problems. Many people don't even consider joining the Army now as the school careers advisers just tell everyone to go to college/university! If everyone does National Service, then more people would consider joining the Army full time. National Service wouldn't be restricted to just Chavs, there will be many people who would make perfect soldiers. More applicants would also mean the Army can raise the recruitment levels and the result is an even better Army than we currently have.

fatherpierre

Where did that post come from????

In my 13 years I never once witnessed any non-white receiving treatment any different to that of his/her white counterpart.

Granted, the numbers of non-whites in the forces is a tiny % and sadly, does not represent the UK's population, but racism in the military is stamped upon as is sexual discrimination.

wrxtankie

HA HA but the chicks still cant do my job, and are´nt about to be doing it either. LOL

women in the army eh now theres a different thread. lol

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

So Aston you don't fancy a busty blond wedged in your tank with you then

Jerome

I spent 16 years in the TA, including a couple of tours with the regulars, and never saw any racism (if you exlude the odd racist joke). Maybe it was just the units I was with. I did however see the odd instance of guys playing (in their words) - the black card - to get off lightly when they should have been charged.


If I and thousands of other TA soldiers weren't part of the actual army, why were we sent to Iraq last year? There are still TA being sent out there.

fatherpierre

For similar reasons that there are now loads PSCOs on London's streets??

Leslie

There is no doubt that National Service did all those who did it a lot of good. No-one was keen to have to do it but as soon as they got used to it in any of the Services, they learned how to make the best of it and most enjoyed it in the end.

It taught people discipline and how to accept authority. That is necessary if we are to live in a society that has not descended into anarchy which is being seriously threatened these days. It also taught people how to accept that everyone has his own value in society and to respect that. People also learned how to work with each other for the sake of getting a job done rather that what they personally would get out of it.

I can't see anything wrong with all that.

Les

fatherpierre

But the schools sytems and good parenting should teach people these things.

mart360

interesting comment re the people going awol!!!

i seem to remember a programm looking at the army glass house (prison)

it said that in normal prisons 75% of offenders re offend within 2 years of release..

compare that to a glass house offender i believe it was only 10% who reoffend within 2 years..... wonder why..

could it be that they actually get punished for there crimes, not given a pat on the back, holiday in marbeya and a bucket of compo on release...

it would do the jobless totals no end of good it it was introduced...


mart

douglasb

Figures from http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk covering the 2001 Census

White 90.9%
Mixed 1.3%
Asian or Asian British 4.6%
(made up of
Indian 2.1%
Pakistani 1.4%
Bangladeshi 0.6%
Other Asian 0.5% )

Black or Black British 2.1%
(made up of
Caribbean 1.1%
African 1.0%
Other Black 0.2% )

Chinese or Other Ethnic Group 0.9%

So, 1.8% is not an accurate reflection of the British population.

Scoobybits

STRIKE ME AS OUT OF DATE FIGURES AND DO NOT INCLUDE THE MISSING ILLEGALLS?

IN RESPECT OF NATIONAL SERVICE I RECKON IT SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK ALONG THE LINES OF AFTER CEASING SCHOOL/COLLEGE ETC IF YOU ARE NOT EITHER IN FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT OR SELF EMPLOYED WITHIN A CUT OF PERIOD OF SAY A YEAR,THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF NATIONAL SERVICE,WITH ALTERNATIVES EMPLOYED WITHIN SAY THE ARMY/RAF/NAVY/POLICE/HOSPITALS ETC.. WHY NOT?! TO MANY LAY ABOUTS AND SCROUNGERS IN THIS COUNTRY..

. EX RAF,DID ME NO HARM AND SAW NO EVIDENCE OF IT HARMING ANYONE I SERVED WITH.........ALL THE CRAP ABOUT GIVING PEOPLE GUNS WHO DON'T WANT TO BE THERE..HAVE YOU ANY IDEA HOW MANY DIFFERENT TRADE GROUPS THERE ARE IN THE FORCES? HUNDREDS.. SOMETHING FOR EVERY ONE..SURELY AND I AM SURE PEOPLE WILL AGREE THAT THE TRAINING IS SECOND TO NO OTHER.AND RESPECTED BY ANY FUTURE EMPLOYER .............IMHA..JASE

Jerome

Jase,

Do RAF computers have a caps lock button yet?

BMWhere?

Do the RAF have computers yet?

(They didn't when I was working for BAe )

C

I would say no.

As someone else said, just because you did, why should others, or just because you think they should why should they...

This country has evolved pretty quickly (even in my life) and I doubt many would put up with the 'crap' you would inevitabilty have to go through. Before people just accepted thats the way it was, now people don't just 'accept'. I know for sure I wouldnt.

66 Blue

how many people from the ethnic minorities are in the higher ranks of the army??? most of the higher ranking officers are white! racisim may not be so overt in the army, pretty sure institutional racism exists....
From the majority of asians and blacks I have spoken to, a career in the army is very low on their list of employment preferences.

douglasb

As mentioned, the figures are from the 2001 Census so are as accurate/recent as that Census was.

Missing illegals would hardly make any difference. Let's assume there are 100,000 of them and that the total poulation is 60,000,000. That means that missing illegals account for 0.16% of the total.

10% of the population being non-white seems about right. The thing to remember is that most non-white people tend to live in the major cities. They make up a larger proportion of the population in those areas, but are a tiny fraction in places like Cumbria.

The link in my earlier post lets you find the proportions for individual postcodes. If you check a postcode for somewhere like Southall you'll probably find an Asian population of around 70%. I checked my own postcode and this area is 98.8% white.

I think the figures are probably quite accurate.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Jasemac you are correct about the hundreds of trades, not sure about the RAF but in the Army you are a soldier first and a tradesman second, every single person who wears green has to pass the weapons tests and fitness tests every year weather you are a major general, librarian or bandsman. Saying that the weapons safty officers on ranges are strict and NSPs are observed at all times (or they were in my day anyway).

So sprog doesn't want to be there and starts being disruptive he will end up in the glass house sooner or later probably sooner, but get him on the ranges with an armalite rifle and teach him to use it he might actually realise what fun it actually is! there is nothing like live fireing automatic weapons on ranges and seeing the damage they do and the smell and noise they create. I was hooked after fireing my first live 7.62 round form an SLR. I went on to join the batallion shooting team and won medals and trophies certainly an achievement that even a chav would appreciate. I also learnt to drive Landrovers and a snow cat, I could have gone on to drive lorries and saxon armoured personel carriers if I wanted to or fly helicopters the world really is your oyster in the forces if you want it to be.

Brendan Hughes

Er - if people were illegals, how would they be eligible for National Service?

ozzy

The last experience I had of the Army was when I was 15/16, so can't comment on that. But, the Detachment Sgt Major for the Marines Reservists in Scotland was black and a very well liked and respected NCO regardless of colour.

In my experience the ones much higher up tend to be upper class, well educated and white. Commission Officers is a different thing from NCO's who have simply worked their way up. It takes a long time to do it a would probably see out a full career to do so.

National Service will not be for everyone, that's just understandable. The armed forces do need to adapt to modern youth. You simply can't treat todays 17yr-olds in the same way as you would a 1950's kid (or even a 1980's one).

I did work experience in the Army when I was 15/16 and although I loved the active side of things and the soldiering I didn't like the whole barracks lifestyle and the dis-respect from other NCO's. It put me off until I was 25 when I joined the RMR. I'd dtill be serving with the RMR if I didn't get injured from all the running. Now I've rid myself of the injuries and back to a decent level of fitness, I'll be re-joining in September.

The bollockings I ever had were because I fecked-up or didn't do something properly. The corrective punishements certainly made me thing about making the same mistake twice. There's a thin line between bullying and corrective PT, but in my own experience in the Marines they never stepped ove the line. In fact I just looked at the thrashing's as a pi$$ take. The PTI's were getting their own back for all the thrashings they had and I was happy to go along with it. At the end of the day, it got me fit and gave me a level of determination I never knew I had. It made me a lot more confident to try things I never thought possible and that's been my biggest reward from it.

Whether you get the same teatment or personal rewards from the other forces is debatable, so perhaps it's better to keep some things small and elite to achieve the results ie. it makes things 10 times better if all the people actually want to be there and show the level of determination to make it.

I guess it's that feeling I'd want everyone to have rather than all the **** like making your beds and getting up at 05:00hrs every feckin morning - even I hate that

Stefan

fatherpierre

Would you like some sauce? Or just a little vinegar? I saw a good few senior officers and SNCOs that were black/asian in my time. There aren't many of them because there aren't many black/asian people in the forces. It's a ratio thing

And what exactly would the 'insert number here' enlisted people actually do once forced in the military? It's being reduced because the need for a large armed forces is not required and is too expensive.

You can't make people run around parade squares for ever. And peeling spuds would become pretty boring after half an hour. And, these people will need to be paid. Another major tax hike to create what would be a prison for people who are guilty of being born at the wrong time or being unlucky enough to be out of work. Not all chavs are bad people

Scoobybits

lol..

Scoobybits

no they should be eligible for a trip to the glass house ..

Geezer

That's an interesting viewpoint Leslie. Where exactly did you get that information from? All the people that I know who did National Service despised it. Sure they have some good memories and some got to see differetn parts of the world, but on the whole they were subjected to a regime that they did not choose nor enjoy. Who would enjoy being shouted at continually, sh1te food, endless days of boredom doing nothing in particular?

The requirements of the 21st century armed forces are nothing like those of the 40s, 50s & 60s. Firstly it would be hugely costly. For every person who was not claiming benefit by being in the army, you would have 3 or more who would be draining the countries treasury instead of contributing to it.

We simply do not need a large army of poorly trained people with no enthusiasm. Modern warfare is high tech, so you'd have to apply some sort of filtering and just end up with all the pond life being grunts in the infantry. I'm sure you'd have a highly motivated army then!

National service of some description, perhaps alongside your occupation may be benficial, but national service as our parents had it has no place in todays society (all IMHO of course)

Geezer

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

why do you all keep refering to national service as joining the army??????

National service means just that a service to the nation the army is not the only service the nation has to offer

and most of you are right we don't want chavs and plebs in the army.