R19KET

T-uk,

Daikin/Exedy Do NOT make the "Clutches", they make some of the "clutch parts".

My supplier then assembles those, and other parts to their own spec'.

Mark.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Presumably the manufacturer tests the clutches on an ongoing basis if they are produced to 1.5% tolerance so a certificate of conformity should present no problem and just be an e-mail away.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Mark: If you are stuck have a word with Christian. He can do custom (aka fake)rolling road graphs and manufacture pictures of bestiallity and things like that so I am sure a few test certs are well within his scope.

Denmark

iTrader: (2)

Is there no firm in the UK that modify a stock clutch to a bigger clampingpressure??
This is what is done to my OE clutch,but the limit is reach,and i think that it´s the plate,that can´t take the heat

I was thinking that maybe if i took a new AP organic and then got this midify´d to a higher clampingforce then this would work out to be better.

All info is great

Skassa

T-uk

skassa,

I think a few of the rally outfits can offer this in the UK. I know it is quite common in australia by Jim Berry of raceclutch's queensland or something. most of the info I have points to an increase of approx 40%, similar to STI/AP.

with this is mind, if mark can bring up some acceptable proof to his clutch's claim of 1400kg clamping, then this is the best option. I am just a bit surprised that given the time he has been claiming this and selling them, he can offer no test certificates(since every cover is tested), or results from independent tests that he may have had done, to check his claim are accurate. harvey is not even a trader , yet had the info to get tests carried out in the UK.

Pavlo

Perhaps because up till now Mark has had a certain amount of faith in the manufacturers of his products.

FWIW MRT do a similar product, but I have no figures for the spec.

Also, there is no visible difference between the AP cover and standard. ALthough the AP pressure plate has a slightly smaller ID and thicker area on the inner diameter. No visible difference with springs and such, or at least non that can be easily measured.

Paul

john banks

A hydraulic press with a gauge may be a handy device with which to compare clamping force between two plates, but the gauges are not terribly accurate at the low clamping forces involved to depress the contact area by 8mm the thickness of a new clutch plate.

Therefore it would be unfair to say that the difference in clamping force between the OEM and the Lateral is nothing like what is claimed based on these tests, it would need a proper test by AP, but there is a lead time of a few weeks on enquiry and I have a car to get back on the road.

This means that certification from the supplier would be heavily appreciated by people purchasing products to a spec because they want to run them to that spec rather than talk about it.

john banks

Still waiting for reply from Daikin/Exedy, they queried the spec I was after just after New Year, I suppose they are thinking about it. Another friction specialist felt that 1400 kg clamping force was hilarious in this sort of clutch, but the Jim Berry claims are high if you search reports on Autospeed.

R19KET

As yet, I have had no luck in contacting my supplier, even though I have called several times. I can only assume they are still away.

I will try again starting Sunday night.

Paul (Pavlo) is correct in saying that I am relaying the information that is given to me by my suppliers.

I am in no way saying this to "pass the buck", just telling the truth, and so far, I have no reason to disbelieve the supplier.

I did try and get the cover tested some time ago, but the company I tried said they couldn't test for "clamp", only release, and they couldn't do this accurately, because the "ring" gave artificially low figures, due to the pivot point effecting the results.

Mark.

911

Like many others, I've been following this surprisingly long thread having just fitted an AP Organic to my hill climb STi.
It is very honest of Lateral to declare the manufacturers claims as being factual, but if they run any degree of process control, then they will have lots of data to prove their products capability to meet spec.
The preoccupation with clamping pressure; is this the only measure?
Surface finish when new/used and especially heat dissipation via the whole clutch assembly in use is to be considered too? (inc the flywheel mass)
What we all need is a reliable clutch that will tolerate abuse in use. This can only be measured accuratly when new, with known surfaces and a control ambient of,say, 20deg C.
But isn't the true peformance measure the ability to transmit torque with minimum slip when the clutch is engaged(to avoid heat generation) and when fully engaged (the engine giving it's all)?
Maybe there is a proven formula to equate the clamping pressure to torque transmission, ie a clamp pressure x = torque value y
and 2x = 2 y
if this relationship is linear, and the surfaces never change during the test?
A one-off test is pointless, to prove ANY clutches performance you need to conduct a capability study on about 50 units minimum, not 50 test runs on the same parts (that just proves/measures repeatability).

Being a hill climber, a killer start to the run is critical, and the way the clutch 'hooks-up'is very important to getting max traction which can be controlled and becomes repeatable for the driver to be consistant, all a bit drag racing but the measure of a good clutch in my opinion.

God, I hope the AP is good as that gearbox is a sod of a job...

Graham.

AlanG

There is a difference between the two Paul unless an Sti cover is different from UK.

Alan

M0NEY

ROTFLMAO!!

Ill have to speak to Christian to get him to do mine. Seems like everyone is faking their graphs now.

Andy.F

Measuring the release bearing force is meaningless with this cover due to the 'ring' relocating the pivot point.

It should be possible to test the clamping pressure using a hydraulic press. Position the clutch on its back, friction face upwards, place an 8mm plate (small brake disc ?) across the pressure plate and operate the press to the point that the plate is level with the edge of the cover ie 8mm depression. Read off the pressure on the press ram. Do this a number of times in each direction ie 7mm approaching 8mm and also 9mm approaching 8mm and take the average figure.
It may also be worth checking the clamp force at 5mm (wear limit) as this will give an indication of the service life WRT clamp force.

Andy

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

too many pages to read, but in reply to "what are the options and which stands the best chance of holding some decent torque from a 2.5 that does 60+miles a day."

I highly recommend the clutch I bought from perFOURmance motorsport. To me it felt just like the normal clutch that I had in my type-r, and has lasted very well, with lots of hard launches, track day, and of course lots of general usuage. Highly recommended, it is a heavy duty 8-button sprung clutch, iirc. Url is here : http://www.pms.net.au/performance.htm

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

Harvey, you have just reminded me that you still owe me the money for doing your rolling road graph!!!

tweenierob

Rob

tweenierob

P.s. I know you have not a lot of faith in 'certain' parts..

But would you really do the same with an AP (for example) if they stated a certain clamping figure??

Or have i answered the question already..

Rob

Mike555

got my answers

[Edited by Mike555 - 1/10/2004 11:18:12 PM]

Pavlo

Alan,

Pehaps te AP is different to UK standard, but not to a Exedy non uprated replacement clutch.

Also, as far as I am aware, the Sti part is a rebadges AP item, which is also made from Diakin parts.

I have a pair of clutch covers in my garage. They are both of the "3 spring" variety. Those springs are mainly to stabilise the pressure plate and are what actually provide the transfer of torque from the pressure plate to the cover pressing.

Paul

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Christian : I don`t owe you any money, or anyone else for that matter. I know you faked a graph but I don`t need to. Now tell us, does 11.4 refer to your 0-60 time and where was this timed?
Keep it witty and we`ll get on alright. Anymore funny photographs for us cos` I rolled about the floor with laughter and still laugh about it now.

[Edited by harvey - 1/11/2004 10:34:04 PM]

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

Ahh I forgot you wanted to keep it a secret about that rolling road graph, ok no problem. So, yes you are correct you don't owe me money.

No more photos at the moment, but I am glad you and others enjoyed it.

[Edited by ChristianR - 1/11/2004 11:39:17 PM]

R19KET

I've been trying to get hold of the supplier on several occasions, and I've tried two different tel.no's tonight, both of which are unobtainable.

Because I can't prove the manufactures claims, and it would appear that I will no longer be dealing with them, I have removed the claim from the advert.

Whilst some people will no doubt make some issue out of this, I can only say hand on heart, the spec' was given to me by the manufacturer.

To date, I have not been told of any "clamping pressure" issues, so I've not had any cause to question the manufacturers claim.

Mark.

R19KET

Sods Law, this morning, I received an email from the Aus' manufacturer. It looks like they are in the middle of moving, and that's why I've found the tel.no.s unobtainable.

They have confirmed the clamping pressure, but will only guarantee it for 1380kg, allowing for the - 1.5% test.

In future, any clutch from this supplier will have a test slip with it.

Mark.

T-uk

Thanks for that confirmation Mark. We can now confidently refit it to John's car and you can reinstate your previous advert with confidence.

Mike555

I recently bought the clutch kit from Mark. I have that check now. SO I will let you know how much kg

Mike

Mike555

Mark says:
They have confirmed the clamping pressure, but will only guarantee it for 1380kg, allowing for the - 1.5% test.

I do not wich test my tuner has done but he has tested it and the result is





















only 1000kg
So it is not 1350kg???!!!
Please explain

john banks

On two hydraulic presses, the difference between a standard MY00 UK clutch and the Lateral was only +30% which is similar to the results above but I was not convinced of the accuracy and still do not state this as accurate.

Speaking to Roger Clark Motor Sport they confirm that there was no option available to me using organic material and my 5 speed flywheel that would be higher than an AP. There were other options with larger STi flywheels or twin plate options, but nothing that looks as standard as a LP clutch.

Another friction specialist literally laughed at the idea of so 1400kg clamping force through such an ordinary clutch.

Mike555

So Australia is claiming 1350kg, that is not true

Pavlo

Can it be confimed that the pressure plate was pushed 8mm away from the cover mating surface during these tests?

Paul

john banks

Was in mine, I used a 9mm thick new brake disc and measured it so that 1mm protruded above where the flywheel would fit flush.

Thanks goodness I am not fitting this rubbish to my 6 speed! This is why I have been in discussion with reputable sources who quote conservative clutch ratings which have up to 30% reserve. Funny that Lateral's clutch claims about 30% higher than anyone else's!