P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Yet another thread on its road to ruin due to **** swinging bravado

James (Pickle) as i said in my emails, you make your own mind up. Your decision should be made on the information you have compared with requirements.

All i can say is, i am sorry for my innocent little link to my for sale thread.

Steven

T-uk

all I can assume is that with all the other mods and getting everything "spot on" to suit the turbo , harvey's produced it's best. not sure if these results are after the rebuild but perhaps RCM,BRD,ION(headers?) and harvey just specced the car perfectly. certainly no-one in the UK can match his r/r figures now-a-days at the shoot-outs.

I had hoped P20SPD could have made the last star r/r day , with all his supporting mods and the fact that it is the best performing MD304 I know of , I think it could have been very interesting. part of me would like to have seen him come up and do over 350bhp but I suspect 330bhp would have been a struggle even though he clearly has found the sweet spot at the moment.

as you say it's not really relevant now but the poster asked for 350 at PS.

It will flow far more than the VF28, and certainly capable of circa 350bhp.

all I question is that regardless of the mods , I have never seen/heard /read of a md304 doing it at PS or the similar reading rollers at star. perhaps they could do it , or have done it but I would have thought the graphs would have done the rounds by now.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

John, i also had hoped i could have made, just for you guys to see and have a comparitor, but TBH, RR figures dont interest me all that much, and things going on in my family life are far more important.

The only time i have been interested was October 2002, when David Wallis and I were having a comical personal duel.

Maybe one day i will come up north, seeing as i am now lumbered with a turbo that comes across on here as being pretty poor, it may be on the car for a long while. Guess i will just have to turn up the boost, as 1.25 is really bu66er all. Its the only way i am going to keep up with the 400+ crew without too much cost. Having said that, i dont really need 400+ to do good 1/4 mile times. Change the wheels and tyre pressures and i am sure i could be into the 11seconds quite easily TBH.

Based on calculations from the dyno pages, my latest BHP would suggest 330ish at PS, at 1.3bar.

As a simple question, what turbo were you running on your car at TOTB2, i dont think i ever asked.

Anyway, enough on the subject from me.

Steven

john banks

I suspect that is about right 330 at PS, you may not see much/any more from turning the top end boost up - that VF turbine wheel is plainly too small for big top end, but more midrange boost would increase the torque and make it quicker on the road, but then your gearbox may struggle. It could also increase your average power on a straight line sprint, but your peak power figures are unlikely to improve substantially now. Having said that I hope you prove me wrong in a nice kind of way and then I'll have to eat my words

So +15 BHP potential over the poster's present results and that with water injection too may mean he should plump for something a bit bigger and leapfrog the MD304, as his results will be near 400 BHP at Well Lane if he gets a solid 350 BHP at PS. I hope there is no ****-swinging interpreted in that, it is merely sizing the turbo for the job.

There are always exceptions where a given turbo produces well beyond what it appears capable of on other cars, but in recommending something to someone to achieve a target it is better to recommend a turbo that is more than capable of the job rather than one that might do it but for which there are no actual results to their spec on their chosen dyno, as unrepeatable as these things are.

If you asked Harvey how to get 377 BHP at Star I doubt he would recommend a VF28 and identical spec to his car. If you asked me how to get 358 or 406 BHP at Star I would not recommend my previous spec either.

I quite liked the MD304 on my car, especially as it blew well for fairly low boost. It was when I turned up the top end boost beyond what you are running (with up to 1.8 bar at the redline in mind as described) that I needed to move on as I suspect you will too if you want to have a substantial rather than detail improvement in performance.

T-uk had a TD05 on at TOTB, but the age old excuse of a slipping clutch (and not just a little bit either it would not hold full throttle at all in 3rd or higher gear on the way to the event) meant he had to run lower boost and (I) only had one shot at a 1/4 which was the first timed one I'd ever done.

[Edited by john banks - 12/11/2003 4:38:14 PM]

T-uk

TOTB

bit of an eye-opener for me. jb wanted me to fit his inlet pipe and 550's but I just wanted to use the mods I run all the time , just maxxed out and some NF. it would not have mattered anyway .I only had 3 runs on the circuit and jb only did one 1/4, his terminal in the right lane ended up similar to yours iirc.

good practice for next year with jb's car **if** he can make up the numbers and a second driver is allowed(I would love a crack at handling with the 2.5's torque). I am hoping to come down to scoobyshootout with mine though and will even line up along-side you , ready to be blown away on the 1/4 since I have never done one in my life. I just hope there is a handling course.

for what it is worth and as said at the start , even with a TD05 , 350bhp at either star or PS (IMO) is very tricky to get and again (IMO) not possible without very aggressive mapping and NF. I would honestly be surprised if my car did more that about 320 at star in normal spec,although I am thinking of getting 550's.

as far as I am concerned it is what you think the gearbox can take . the MD304 and TD05 will easily kill them even if doing 350bhp,on any day,on any rollers, is not on the cards.

if you are ever coming up to a scottish event, give me a shout , there is a bed for you and the wife here. I am sure I can find some baling or ploughing for you to do , to pay your board

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

LOL I somehow think this years 1/4 mile results for my car will pale into insignificance next year, when the big cars get going.

thanks for the offer, although now dads retiring, i dont want to do any more baling

Pickle, sorry about above.

Steven

john banks

Things is Steve, big cars (and this is no diss to anyone as in future I would like my car to be "big" ) are prone to not working right on the day or producing the results they are supposed to as they are fickle beasts. For example, did you think that you would come second on the 1/4 (IIRC) out of the Scoobies at TOTB when you studied the entry list before hand?

R19KET

I'm more than happy to agree that the MD304 doesn't suit James's needs.

I can't comment what the MD304 would specifically do at Star, or PS, because firstly it would depend on the rest of the set up, and secondly, I've not mapped one that's run at either.

I don't want this to deteriate into one of the "usual" threads, it's not the place.

Rolling road figures that are way beyond a turbo's flow map, and that no one else have ever got even close to, are unsound. We all know how rolling roads don't always give what we're expecting. Andy, IIRC, you had a weird one at Star recently, which gave you well below 400bhp flywheel ?

Steven, TBF, it's pointless comparing T-uk's TOTB figures, to yours, because whilst your car was 1.22sec's quicker in the 1/4, and .9 sec's quicker on the handling, he had a slipping clutch (allegedly)

What's really funny, is when any of us guys south of the border quote power figures, we get told that they mean nothing, and they need to be proved with 1/4 mile times, then when we quote 1/4 mile times, they mean nothing, you'd rather have power figures, proven on a RR of your choice.

So far, apart from Andy's fantastic TD05, and TD05/6 1/4 mile times, we don't have anyone else's times to compare, on the same turbo's. I know that Andy said he's sold a lot of turbo's, are there any other 1/4 mile times, for comparison ?

Maybe, instead of all this rubbish, we could have a Steve Darley v T-uk baling Shootout ?

Mark.

Andy.F

Mark

I did have a 'funny' result at star recently It was kinda what I expected though as I had no wastegate actuator fitted !! Just gathering some turbo data, using only a light spring holding the wastegate from flapping open !

FWIW my td05 with charge cooler ran 369bhp at Star, never did get a chance to try it with the big front mount.

We will probably need to wait until the better weather to see any decent 1/4 mile times from the TD05/06-20g although Skassa has recently run a 12.08 on his 16" winter knobblies in Denmark with a slow 1.875 sec 60' time. His previous best with TD05 was 12.51 on 17" F1's

Andy

T-uk

your car was 1.22sec's quicker in the 1/4, and .9 sec's quicker on the handling

just out of interest , what was stevens own time on the circuit not john felsteads?.

I can't comment what the MD304 would specifically do at Star, or PS, because firstly it would depend on the rest of the set up, and secondly, I've not mapped one that's run at either.

so why when the poster asked for 350 at PS do you post

certainly capable of circa 350bhp.

truth is my car should not have been at TOTBfull stop.I or jb have never done any timed events before , we just made up the numbers at the last minute since most of the other entrants dropped out. if you want a few 1/4 times for my car I would need to get andy to do it in a like for like driving experience with 1/4's. same with handling with me against JF, I do not even pretend to be in the same league as drivers with race history like him.

this is the main reason that scoobyshootout should be before TOTB rather than trusting the big power (in theory) cars to take spaces and then not show.

keep digging the hole mark. I am not a trader like you so have no gain. had you posted a tmi??? or a 20g (if you do them now), would make 350 at PS then fair enough but IMO this thread shows your still full of horsesh1t.

Andy.F

ROTFL Sounds familiar, wonder who we learned that from

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

JB your quite right, i didnt.

Mark i wasnt comparing with T-UK, just wanted to know.

T-Uk, from memory MY 3rd run was low 43, will have to check the slip, as it was post cut off so didnt count, hence why the times shown for me are all fellys times. I enjoyed it, as that was the first "twisties" i had tried to push the car over.

Baling would be funny

Steven

T-uk

do not worry about it steven.

your results where great, my results where cr4p. simple really

no point in turning this into one of those "v" threads , given we are all agreeing now that a TD05 and MD304 would both struggle to do the required results, at PS easily. I think this was mentioned on page 1

however

I did bale 19acres of spring barley straw (96net 4'x4' bales)in under two hours once including end-riggs

[Edited by T-uk - 12/12/2003 5:04:30 PM]

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

pah! I was baling anywhere between 150 and 200 4'x4' net bales, barley or wheat between 7pm and 10pm this summer

Average speed whilst baling 18kmh using Valtra 8140 and New Holland 746 baler.

Now that has some torque. IIRC spec is over 400nm at 1250rpm Would have to check though.

Anyway, back on topic, agreed.

Guess i will have to push mine a lot further next year!

Steven



[Edited by P20SPD - 12/12/2003 5:23:39 PM]

David_Wallis

and on the phone to me whilst baling

R19KET

T-uk,

Like Steven said, his time was slower, but are we talking about the performance of the CARS/TURBO's Now you want to introduce driver ability On the day, Stevens CAR was quicker than yours, but I've already said that I didn't think it was a fair comparison.

How can I say that the MD304 will specifically make 350bhp on a car that I have no idea exactly what mod's it has, or how it will be mapped.

Andy has achieved 369bhp on a TD05, and 440bhp on the TD05/6 20G, but I doubt he'd guarantee that anyone using those turbo's will automatically achieve the same results !!!

I believe that with the right set up, the MD304 can achieve 350bhp on RR's such as PS. Steven's car has made 361bhp @ Well lane, running low boost, and NO NF. What would you say NF, and a re-map was worth ?

I think it's pretty obvious why you post on threads relating to anything I do. There are many on this bbs, who's opinion I value, based on their experience, and or achievements. I'm afraid that you come into neither catagory.

Andy,

Sorry, I must have misread your original post. I thought you'd said that you'd got the highest ever PAW's, but for some reason the Star RR had given a relatively very low flywheel figure.

When it comes to "selective" use of figures, be they RR, or times, you taught me everything I wish I could forget

Mark.

john banks

Does an engine already using water injection benefit further from octane booster?

Nice idea to try, I don't know the answer.

If it does then maybe Stephen could get 350 BHP at PS. Why not have a shot at it?

AlanG

Since we're debating *** size my own produced 387BHP at 1.38 bar boost with only Optimax and no additional ingredients on the TMI-141S turbo

I'm about to find out what it's going to give with the turbo that's on it now, the TD05/06-20G, before I retire under my rock for a few months.

Alan

AlanG

IIRC Mark, Andy has said in the past that he achieved 408BHP on the 20G with no additives and 440BHP with *the witches brew* , but stand to be corrected.

Andy
What boost did you run to achieve the 408 figure? Think you've got a graph. Can you post it?

Alan

AlanG

Interesting point. Is there any feedback from other users of the 20G with "their mods" which won't all be the same?

Alan

T-uk

mark,

we could go round and round in circles.I think you need to re-read the thread so you can see what you wrote earlier. the whole thread was about 350bhp at power station,not about your imaginary results , or helping you find yet another guinea pig to help you with development.

you don't like me. I can see I will loose sleep over that

R19KET

Alan,

I think Andy had 395bhp on one setup, and 408bhp on another, just using Optimax, but he'd have to confirm. IIRC, he achieved the 400bhp running less bost, but with Methanol as an octane booster. It's cheaper than NF, and you know what he's like

John,

Yes, if I can talk Steven (tight Yorkshire man) into trying NF, I'm certain there'll be more to come.

T-uk,

Yawn.......

LMFAO and there I was, thinking that it was you, that doesn't like me

Mark.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

John (JB) it may be worth trying i suppose. Will have to have my arm twisted though, as i cant be ar5ed putting NF or any other stuff in my fuel tank except for Optimax, and even then i think twice, as i have to drive out of my way to get it

When i had the Data Log Lab software on my laptop, i did a few runs with and without the WI, and they were way before the TOTB modifications, the results were suprising for me.

I swore on the road there was more power and torque, but looking at the graphs, it showed a drop between 10 and 20bhp across the range, torque was the similar drop. I can only assume that adding something like NF would bring that back

Guess i will have to try it, but i need to organise another set of headers, as i have sold the OBX ones.

Steven

harvey

iTrader: (48)

From memory my car produced 472bhp at Well Lane, later that same day 450bhp at G-Force and the following day, which was the Southern Rolling Road event at Power Engineering 441bhp. The torque for all three was 375 / 376 ftlbs.
With 377bhp on my VF28 on 30th September 2002 I was aware that the turbo was probably working towards maximum for the set up on my car at that time. With no modifications whatsoever the car did 356bhp 1st October 2002 at Well Lane so this may dispel the myth that Well Lane always gives high readings.
Fitting an Ion Turbo gave an additional 67bhp (417) on the same rollers later that month.
I would have thought that the Ion Turbo is the obvious and proven solution for those going for my power level and those on a lesser budget would be happy with the TD05/06 20G available from Andy Forrest.
Obviously other factors are important like the initial engine build by Roger Clark Motorsport, the mapping from Bob Rawle and the support from John Pye Motorsport.

T-uk

just to clear something up.

mark,

we have had a few issues but I do not have any problem with the "boxed goods" you sell. I have posted in the past that you give good prices and are very good at sourcing rare and required uprated parts. this is still the case as I still believe this to be true. I know that for some products you are pretty much untouchable with your pricing in the UK,credit where it is due.

I have made no secret , that I do not think you test your "more technical" products fully before selling them to customers. if you read this as me having a dislike of you then you are wrong , I do not know you well enough to dislike you personally.

I think harvey's post pretty much tell us what we already know. rolling roads are only of any use for a same day shootout comparisons and nothing more.

I had always assumed that well lane always read much higher.especially after hearing that when he and andy had their private shootout at star and harvey's car read much lower than expected , until it was run in a different gear and had been allowed to cool or something. I think even then it was lower than expected and was about 1bhp higher the andy's.

guess thats blown my theory out the water

flame suit on and running away to hide.

edit to try and make sense

[Edited by T-uk - 12/12/2003 10:48:03 PM]

Andy.F

My 440bhp was at 1.47bar at Star with octane booster (I forget which one, I've tried that many options)
I have also run 432bhp at WL on the 20g with the std headers and std ecu (but higher boost) I didn't use OB for this run as it didn't need it to run the std ECU's timing.
The other runs at Star without OB were all at lower boost 1.2/1.3 IIRC and it was 390 something bhp.

I have never done back to back rolling road tests with/without OB but I can get about 4-5 degrees more timing on the ECU 'with'

Andy

Andy.F

I think it is generally accepted that WL reads a bit higher than some other RR's. I don't know what they do for P&T compensation ? this can be worth up to 10% more/less power. If they do not 'normalise' then this could account for the highs some days and low's on others.

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

John: The day Andy and I went to Star was about six months ago and I was aware of some problem with "slip" Not sure if it was tyres or clutch or something else I was not aware of. Certainly I was not happy with the result. The car had done 200mls since a new clutch was fitted as I rived the centre out of the previous and I did wonder if there was a problem there. Got the car back from John Pye's and went almost straight to Star.
Andy went straight on the rollers and produced 440 from memory and I was expecting a good bit more. There was nothing wrong with the car as far as I could tell but Jim thought there may be a slip issue.
Since then the car has done several R.Rs including 585bhp, 533 and 501. I only know of one car at 2.2 litre to break the 500 mark so I think the spec is well proven for a two litre.
During the development we have substantially upped the torque and improved the spool, as anybody that has been in it will tell you it is very drivable, pulling from 1700 rpm in 5th.

R19KET

T-uk,

I do find your perception of what I do very interesting. Do you really think that what I do, is any different to the respected people, that you like to recommend.

Ok, let's look at this realistically. I have a lot of respect for what Andy has achieved, and the turbo's that he supplies are producing very good results.

Now, Andy tested the TD05, and the TD05/6 20G on his car, before he decided to sell it to anyone else, but not everyone else can get the same results as he achieved, hardly a suprise.

He can hardly be expected to test a turbo on every MY, with every combination of intake, headers, d/p, etc'. So sometimes someone will have a boost creep issue, or someone else can't achieve a boost target, or JB tried 2, or 3 different exhaust wheel cut backs, before finding the verion that suited him.

How does this stand with you ? To me, it's par for the course. I expect that some people with have unexpected results, and I'm sure Andy does too, but as and when it happens, I'm sure we both do our best to sort it out.

I'm sure the same applies to some cars that JB has mapped. He's probably done dozens of '99-'00 cars, but I'll put money on him having had the occasional problem, where he's either come across an anomoly, or a mod that's reacted very differently to anything else he's done.

Or how about when a well repected engine builder, uses a new piston design for the first time, because the brand they had been using wasn't performing as they wanted ?

I could go on, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

Now, you've said that I have used customers as Guinea pigs, but what you've not said, is that I have never used an untried product on someone, without their prior knowledge.

In some cases, I will actually ask someone to test a product, and give me an honest appraisal. I've been doing this for ages, and you well know that I even gave a turbo to JB, to do just that.

It's not realistic for a supplier to test every single product they sell on their own car, and sometimes it will get tested on a customers, BUT, the customer should be made fully aware, and given the option to refuse.

For some reason, your perception of me doing exactly the same as other companies, some of which you would recommend, , is a little blinkered. Maybe that's because of your involvement with the problems I had with both JB, and Alan G, who you're good friends with. I more than understand your frustrations, but how do you think I, or any other supplier feels when things don't go according to plan ?

With the best will in the world, regardless of who you are, sometimes, SH*T happens. Then it's down to how a problem is resolved.

Mark.

Scoty

Nice to see everyones still at it