Well not 100%

 

Nom : If you do not like what I say, go off somewhere else.
My Standards : Pretty open and honest. If you are a genuine purchaser, Jack will share everything with you but I am hardly likely to take Mark Aigan by the hand as he is in this for profit when I am doing this in an amateur way. There are many people on this board who I have helped selflessly and I reiterate, there are no secrets in my specification.
Secrets : If you guys were doing the job properly in the first place, you would be getting similar results to me. It is an accumulation of many little things coupled with the selection of the appropriate vital components. Read turbos, pistons, rods, bearings, oil pumps, etc. etc. etc..
I am glad you think my 1/4 mile time is appalling. The only Scooby I know who has beaten it in the UK is Andy Forrest`s and at the time of the 1/4 mile time you are aware of, I had 500 bhp I think. So there is lots of improvement this year into the low 11`s compared to my crap times last year. I think you must be a very clever guy to work out my times are crap when you know nothing about the cars weight, my weight, the gear box, the diffs and so on. The fact that it is not designed for drag racing, is a daily driver and still beats all comers on the 1/4 mile and has astounding cross country ability tells me most of you guys don`t know what you are doing. Remember, I still have my original STi 6 gearbox, so I guess I am relatively mechanically sympathetic on the starts. Now you think my results are p... poor, but I have been driving around since October 2002 with well over 400 bhp. Please tell me of the cars I do not know about, in the UK, that have matched my power output and performance, 1/4 mile times, or top speed or rolling road figures for that matter.
"unit for Canada not proven". My figures speak for themselves as do the Ion units performance in the US and Canada. Obviously some of you guys don`t use the internet to best advantage to find out what is happening over there. Nom, Do you really think the Ion turbo is not proven? You must be aware of the numerous disappointments and failures experienced by the sheep bah bah bah.
My figures are not "Pie in the Sky", lots of people are present when they are produced.
BTW I am about to fit one of Andy`s turbos to my WRX as I want to get close to 400 bhp. In fact, if I was prepared to lift the manifold or turn the turbo it would be over 400 bhp, no doubt about that. This is a budget project just to see how far, how little money can go with simple mods and hopefully it will benefit the audience at large.
At present I know of 2 turbos to choose from if you want 400+ bhp reliably or 600+ bhp and they are both Ion.
You do not seem to be aware that I was involved with Andy when the TD06 became a reality, and we are very firm friends. Anybody wanting advice on the suitability of a modified TD05 or TD06 even up to 400+ bhp then Andy will give honest advice and he is not motivated by greed or profit.
"Pie in the Sky" ? - Give me my petrol money and overnight accommodation and I will come down to Power Engineering and show you how it is done. Get a few 500 bhp Subarus lined up if there are any. Next week, week after, just state the date and confirm the funds. Put your money where your mouth is.
Are you accusing me of cheating ? That is exactly what you are saying. I have no apologies to make if my results p... you off and all the people who have seen my car running, you were not one of them, can make a judgement on whether the results were fiddled. Now what Subarus have got 585 bhp in public or bar Andy Forrests, can do 11.74 1/4`s and 171 mph at 1.25 miles. Put it in your pipe and smoke it pal.
Oh, and by the way, just read your next post. Ask Andy what happened when we put the AP22 on my car. If you are not obsessed by figures what are you doing on this post anyway ?
About not proving it again, when the experts start producing 600+ bhp in public, I will bring another one out of the box and after that I might even consider a bigger capacity engine which should be interesting.
So you like to dish it out but don`t want to take it when somebody answers you back. Glad you got it off your chest, but I deal in facts and the facts I give you are proven in public.
Let us not forget that Mark Aigan was given the opportunity earlier today to explain himself about Rolling Roads or repeatable results and he chose not to, and despite the fact that the thread contained nothing obnoxious or offensive to anybody apart from Mark and his cohorts it was locked.

Look Pavlo : If 25 cars turn up for a Rolling Road day, the conditions for all are approximately the same. I trust you are not suggesting I am in some sort of connivance to cheat in front of 24 other runners and a crowd of 60 odd people, perhaps you could clarify this.
BTW, once I had a bad result at Star, 200 miles after a new clutch was fitted and on another occasion within a few days after I had been to Star, the Well Lane result was below the Star result. The only way you can compare Rolling Road results is on the same day, same rollers in close proximity. Sorry Paul, but if Mycroft cracks you up you are not looking at what he posts with an open mind on occasion.
My results speak for themselves and I am not sorry if they p... some of you guys off. I do not have a predelection for sheep bah bah bah.
Nom : You just follow current tuning preferences and one things for sure, we will still be in different leagues next year.

Now for the thought police.

 

Bloody hell I post an answer to Harvey, go away for the night and when I come back in the morning my thread is 3 pages longer

Guys, just to clarify a few things, when I said

I should have said The turbo I have has been used before and works very well, what I was trying to imply was that if I don't achieve my personal goal of the silly figures I have in mind then I will get something bigger to get closer to achieving it.

Rolling Roads - basically they are not very good when it comes to flywheel figures, there is far to many "calculations" and "varying parameters" such as gear ratios, drag etc between each car to convert figures accurately to flywheel HP.

Certainly in the (race)bike world shootouts are done with "At the wheel figures" If the cars were done the same it would certainly give a better view across all the cars and this would be a better correlation in reality to estimated 1/4 mile times because after all its the "At the wheel figures" that drive the car (and its weight)to that time.

I have been on the Rolling Road many times with my race bikes and I assure you that even the slightest manipulation of a parameter such as Barometric Pressure can have favourable results if you want it to.... but before anybody has a go I'm not saying anybody has done this....

On other subjects, Harvey your continued feud with Lateral Performance seems (to me) to be not based on fact but speculation, from what I have read about it so far(across the many threads it appears on, now including mine ), I personally don't understand why you think Turbo Dynamics COPIED your ION turbo????

If they did.......then....

Why is the market not flooded with VF Hybrids all making over 500 HP????

I would of certainly had one LOL

I appreciate everybody's views but slagging each other off gets us nowhere. Surely we can be competative with each other without resulting in personal verbal attacks

Conrad


[Edited by RSVR Racer - 1/6/2004 9:31:36 AM]

 

i think this is turning from a good tread in to a farce...sombody please split it then we can carry on with a quaility thread instead on tit for tat....... chris

 

Chris, hopefully its back on track

Harvey, in response to your VVT question on Bobs Project Thread, it was decided by the chap building my engine that the VVT was there more for "emission" control rather than performance gains. Granted, earlier spool up may be achieved but that is only a couple of hundred RPM and the associated costs that are required when using VVT far outweighed the gains of keeping it.

It was decided to just stick with fixed timing set by vernier pulleys and some wild profile cams and thus the extra costs for ECU's with cam control was deleted. Another problem with the VVT was that there are currently no cams available, We spoke at length with cam manufacturers and they believed the costs far outweighed the gains of producing them. Overlap seems to be a worrying problem for them given the amount of +/- advance retard you can use with the AVCS.

Conrad

 

Have you chosen cams for your car yet Conrad?
Can't be bothered trawling through 10 pages!!

Alan

 

Well I think it's fairly clear to see I am not suggesting this Harvey. In fact you are the only person that has written on the subject.

What seems odd to me is that people use the figures at hand to support what they are saying, but then turn around and say that such figures are unsupportable when it suits them.

And as for Mycroft, it wouldn't be my power figures that are in question, but yours, Andy's, Adam's, Johns plus most of the high power skylines and EVOs.

Paul

 

Conrad: At no time have I said that Turbo Dynamics copied my turbo. Read what is written and stick to the facts.

Nom: We (you Andy and me) all agree on one thing and that is, that Andy's turbos are proven and probably the best option dependant on application for the power range up to around 400bhp or a bit more with supporting mods. That is why Andy is doing a TD-06 for my WRX right now.
Andy and I are both agreed that for 400-550bhp+, The Ion Performance turbo like I have is probably the best cost effective, proven option. That is why Andy is talking to Jack at present about a turbo for that power range.
Andy and I also believe that another Ion turbo looks like a very good option for 600bhp+ but neither of us have direct experience of this turbo but one is on the way to the U.K. right now.

You think my turbo is not proven or doubt my figures. It is a free country still, just, and becoming increasingly less so but, some people believed the world was flat, others thought it would be impossible to break the sound barrier and some experts, only 18 months ago knew that below 400 bhp was the limit of Scooby tuning on an every day driver. You are welcome to your views.

 

your continued feud with Lateral Performance

I for one would think the feuding would stop if the cars were doing the business. harvey and andy have both grown bored of waiting for some competition form this so called specialist. I have lost count of the months we have been waiting for marks own car let alone any of his customers builds. IMO the time they are taking and continual references to attending the next shootout,only to be a no-show, back up any claims that all is not well in the camp.

until the current cars come out and live up to expectations, I hope no more people fall into the trap of buying on empty, unproven promises of performance. real results in a like for like environment will speak for themselves, unfortunately it seems so can a good mouthpiece with no other back up.

[Edited by T-uk - 1/6/2004 11:55:48 AM]

 

I know I said I wasn't going to say anything more, but, well, I am . And really this is just to try to close the points that I brought up...

To me (civil engineer by training), a product needs to be verified to function reliably from many different aspects/angles until I will consider using it. Building a bridge, for instance, with a single part that is 'excellent' in the one single way it has been tested, could easily kill a few thousand people if/when it fails. It's not proven until it works. A tricky thing to do, when you can't use it until it's proven...
With John springing to mind, I believe (hope!) that this is the same with medecine.

Mecahnical things rarely get to the same level - you can kill a few people from, say, dodgy brakes, but with a 'civil' structure, it's pretty easy to move towards the death toll of a medium-sized war in one swoop.

This makes my judgement rather different to someone based in mechanics, or indeed most other areas. I don't seem to be able to move beyond this point of view - I think it's probably a weakness, but a safe one, which is the idea...

I am absolutely not trying to put iON down in any way, and would personally be very pleased if they prove (by my standards) to be able to do their job of producing power - I have virtually no competitive spirit (or skills ) whatsoever, with no interest in raising my engine's output to match (or approach) these higher levels, and so only stand to gain from these big-power engines & the knowledge it brings to improve the games that we play with these engines. Indeed, I have made plenty of use out of the knowledge that you lot (particularly Andy & Harvey it must be said ) have brought to the scene, and am very grateful for it.

My gripe (and I think many others') is with the importance that is placed on power outputs, other than as a general 'target'. For many of us, the actual power isn't the point, it's just a means to an end, hence when too much emphasis is placed on it, the whole point of the project/discussion is lost.
Much of the fun - which is why we are here in this thread - is in the speccing & building of the thing. It would be nice to try to keep it there.

That's it!

 

Pavlo : No problem, accepted mate.
Nom : Last time I was involved in building a bridge I was told by Sir Cyril Parry that I should plant sawdust as I would end up with a forest.
Back on topic.
Conrad : Seeing as how your title is VVT are you going to modify it? I am surprised you have ditched the variable valve timing because while I can see the complication I would have thought the benefits were worth the effort. As you are running Gems, have you spoken to Steve Simpson regards his findings and great gains to be had from advancing the cam timing via the Gems ?
As regards Vernier pulleys they would only be applicable on the exhaust side so I guess that only half the gains could be made but I think there must be Vernier pulley sets available for the exhaust side.
Do you mind disclosing your engine builder or do I need to know the secret knock and hand shake ? In which case you can e-mail me if you wish. My interest is completely on the level.

 

Nom, you say and then on the topic of external wastegates on a scoob you say
and on uprated turbos -
So it appears that although you personally will not even consider using such an unverified product, you are willing to recommend them to others.......

Andy

[Edited by Andy.F - 1/6/2004 1:37:57 PM]

 

Harvey

If Lateral hasn't used or divulged your turbo spec I cant see what the problem is matey but then again it doesnt really belong on here, or for the publics eyes in my opinion, something you should sort out between yourselfs in private like adults

My engine builder is not a secret, his name is Mark Wycherely, nothing to do with Dave Wild or SMG, a personal friend who has looked after my race bike engines for years. I value his opinion reagrding the VVT. The GEMS is not going to be used in this configuration because I need to run 8 injectors (staged rather than wired together). Please note Harvey, that the group N cars fix the timing in the best possible place and then lock it there, you would expect group N cars to use the VVT to get the best advantage given there lack of mods allowed but clearly they do no not.


T-UK Why does one particular supplier have to come up with some competition? There are several companies out there that havent done this either, G-Force, Scoobymania etc etc You adding fuel to the Harvey vs Lateral fire doesnt help and certainly isnt good for the BBS or this thread

AlanG - cam specs arent decided yet but the cam people are working with us and they know what our aim is. They will be wild though! I'll post has soon as I know.


BACK ON TOPIC

Individual Throttle bodies arrive next week! Ye ha

Paul, I'll send you the drawing

Conrad

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 1/6/2004 2:36:04 PM]

 

Warning - 'off topic' post!
Andy - If you hadn't noticed, I wasn't suggesting a product, merely another avenue worth looking into & collecting info from.
There is rarely ever point that I will recommend a product, as it's the buyer's choice, not mine

I have found Mark to be a very reliable & generous supplyer of information, so feel that I can recommend him as someone to speak to, especially as he doesn't push a sale. In short, I can't see how anyone could find a downside to speaking to him, except through personal preference - at which point they can ignore my advice

I think out of all the products I've tried, the only thing I would recommend is the APS FMIC, and that's because I can't think of an instance when someone wouldn't be better off fitting it over the TMIC they'd be coming from
End of warning


[Edited by nom - 1/6/2004 3:00:25 PM]

 

Thanks Conrad.
I'm curious as to how you are going to select a particular cam profile which is suitable for your car. There seems to be so many variations at play with the Subaru with regard to head spec available over the years and choice of cam profiles, it's all a bit of a minefield to me. Or maybe it's a relatively new area a lot of us are starting to look at and have nothing to base our decisions on, who knows?
The last time i played with cams was on both the Rover V8 and Cosworth engines and i don't remember it being so mind boggling with trying to choose suitable cams for the engine spec.

Or am i getting too old?...

Alan

 

Conrad: To have an adult view on what took place you would need all the facts.

To copy the turbo would require three things:
1) You would need to know what you were looking at.
2) You would need to know what you were doing.
3) You would need access to the relevant parts.

Prodrive have disabled the VVT because they have ECU related control problems.This is being addressed by the ECU manufacturer right now. Other competant and successful Gp N rally exponents have it operating satisfactorily in their environment and recon it is worth 30bhp. Not to be sneezed at when you want big power which in my experience is an accumulation of lots of little bits once the basic componentry and spec are sorted.

 

That means nothing to you and your project conrad, unless of course you are building a 265hp group N engine, which has it's power band so limited by the inlet restrictor that AVCS would be of hardly any use, and just another thing to go wrong.

You on the other hand are going to (I would guess) be going for a peak power RPM of around 7500 if you can get it, but still want best spool up from a large turbo. Which is just about as apposed as you can get from a Grp N setup.

Paul

 

Harvey,I agree with you but "we" being the rest of us on this BBS dont have these facts and can only base our comments on what we can read, to this end, I believe its unfair to flame someone in public if that audience only has 1/2 of the story.

Sorry about the title but I cant modify it, maybe a moderator can lose the VVT bit for me (for the time being )

On Topic

I assume the ECUmanufacturer you are referring to is PECTEL, please correct me if I'm wrong. The group N cars (majority anyway) use this ECU but the WRC car uses GEMS. I have (read engine builder) made the decision to go without it for the time being, I still have the VVT heads and if I feel that the 30 hp loss is beneficial we could always develop them in the future.

AlanG
Things to consider if using VVT are valve overlaps and wild cams, the cost of an ECU that can drive 8 injectors and do cam control successfully, the lack of aftermarket cams available(granted I know they can be reprofiled but I dont believe they have enough meat on them to achieve the profiles we want. Bear in mind the the JUN272 items are ***** versions Thankfully Alan, my engine chap knows alot more than I do but i'm learning alaong the way.

Did I mention my engine chap has a NA Sherpa Van thats done a 12 second quarter.....LOL

Paul

Paul, the point was there to point out that you would think that cars with no mods would use the VVT to get the most out of what they could if it was viable, no relation to mine.

~30 HP gain vs cost of ECU etc etc etc Not for me at the moment.

Motec's are expensive!

Conclusion

At the end of the day, its a bit of fun and the aim is to push the boudries WAY beyond what has been seen before in terms of HP and design on a Subaru engine. The mere fact I'm using individual throttle bodies, custom inlet manifold, wild wild cams and a stupidly large turbo (or two ) should make a bloody interesting read. It might blow up, it might not but at least we'll have a bloody good baseline of what can be achieved using the best parts and everybody's joint design thoughts with a little lunacey thrown in.

PS I intend to Video the part where the 150 shot of NOS goes in

Thanks for the interest and lets keep the off topic squabbling to a minimum.

Conrad

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 1/6/2004 4:28:04 PM]

 

Fed up of this bollox..

My car will never run on a group rolling road day again.

dont even try the smart **** comments..

Tweenie rob, chris jones, and conrad will all confirm that my car is in my garage as we speak with a working engine.. and loud fuel pumps

David

 

Good on you mate but you'll need over 325 bhp per litre to do that (before the N2O)

Andy

 

Andy, all I can say mate is that I'll certainly try

Davids car does run and does have loud fuel pumps but you can't hear them for the sound of that EXHAUST!

Conrad

>Thinks to self...325hp/litre therefore 325*2.486 = 807 HP<

Who has done that one then?

Conrad

 

Mine certainly do. Enough for about 13mm lift if you want.

Paul

 

Ok Paul, maybe they do

Not to worry though, working on my V5 Items now.

Conrad

PS you have mail.

 

Ron at Axis racing has run over 800bhp on a 2.4 but I think that in addition to 2.5 bar boost this included a shot of nitrous ?? He certainly sells kits that have been run to 800bhp (careful not to say proven )

If you can pull the RPM and still flow the air then over 1000bhp is possible on a 2.5 (without N2O)

Andy

 

We'll just have to see how it goes, i put some rough figures in an engine calculator last night and it came out around 779 hp without WI or NOS but they were rough figures based on a compressor efficiency of only 65% but a VE of 90%, interesting how the intercoolers abillity to drop temp had such a dramatic effect on the resultant power though. Seems like the intercooler efficiency will play alot bigger part than I thought.

Conrad

 

Compressor efficiency is VERY important as it is a triple hit on performance !
Not only do you compress less air at lower efficiency but you obviously add heat to the charge and....(not so obviously) the wastegate must be closed in further to do the extra work to maintain boost target, this increases the exhaust manifold back pressure which in turn reduces air flow through the engine.
For your proposed output I'd be seriously considering a big/small sequential turbo set up.

Andy



[Edited by Andy.F - 1/6/2004 7:50:40 PM]

 

Andy, please define "big small sequential" turbo set-up

Conrad

 

erm a big turbo and a small turbo run sequentially.

 

Or rather a small/big sequential set up
I have a drawn up a system which I think would be good on a 6-700bhp 2.5l It would have quick spool at a low rpm but retain high efficiency at higher rpm. The key being the control strategy at the critical load changeover point. Although neither turbo is ever without exhaust flow.
This however may not be necessary in light of Trouts recent dyno postings as that appears to have both early spool and good power potential. It needs to perform in the car though, especially during quick engine acceleration rates in the lower gears, so I'll reserve judgement for the time being.

Andy

 

you know what I meant.