Which Headers?????
04 November 2003, 09:47 PM
#32
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I would recommend the Gruppe-S on a VFM basis. You would be hard pushed to identify any performance difference between HKS, iON and Gruppe-S headers in my opinion.
Having recently mapped 3 cars with the above headers, spool was identical (within 100rpm) and power was within 10 bhp accounting for boost differential.
I suggest however getting an engineering company to check the flange faces between uppipe and collector, my set were slightly warped and it is much easier to correct before fitting !
I do believe Gruppe-s are now doing a set of headers which have a 3 bolt flange between collector and uppipe. This should eliminate any chance of blowing gaskets.
As mentioned earlier the delivery service is first class, 3 days from phone call to doorstep
Andy
Scott, they can be slow with email responses, the phone call is very quick though
[Edited by Andy.F - 11/4/2003 9:51:35 PM]
Having recently mapped 3 cars with the above headers, spool was identical (within 100rpm) and power was within 10 bhp accounting for boost differential.
I suggest however getting an engineering company to check the flange faces between uppipe and collector, my set were slightly warped and it is much easier to correct before fitting !
I do believe Gruppe-s are now doing a set of headers which have a 3 bolt flange between collector and uppipe. This should eliminate any chance of blowing gaskets.
As mentioned earlier the delivery service is first class, 3 days from phone call to doorstep
Andy
Scott, they can be slow with email responses, the phone call is very quick though
[Edited by Andy.F - 11/4/2003 9:51:35 PM]
04 November 2003, 10:08 PM
#34
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RB5SCOTT
What's the interpretation of laggy?
When do you get a bar of boost for example on your turbo?
Which i believe is the same as what i ran, the TMI-141S?(A TD05/06 but with Garrett wheel instead of 20G)
Alan
Its about as laggy as you can expect
When do you get a bar of boost for example on your turbo?
Which i believe is the same as what i ran, the TMI-141S?(A TD05/06 but with Garrett wheel instead of 20G)
Alan
04 November 2003, 10:16 PM
#35
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
How do you find the spool of the 20g compares to the garrett wheel Alan ? I'd be surprised if there is much difference.
Still shouldn't feel laggy even in the lower gears, not any more so than a TD05 does anyway.
Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 11/4/2003 10:23:24 PM]
For me it's a bit poo in the lower gears
Its a Lateral with garrett wheel, Its about as laggy as you can expect from a turbo of that size
Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 11/4/2003 10:23:24 PM]
04 November 2003, 10:22 PM
#36
Laggy
****........ these aint laggy.. they boost up from about 3100-3200 rpm............ the VF series boost from about 3800 rpm
Ok may be poor compared to standard turbo but cripes this turbo aint laggy...... - its a tiddler of a turbo........ you want to see a proper Turbo - head for a certain garage in Leeds too see the mother of all Turbo's on a certain Mr Wallis's car - thats if its ever on the road.........
Must say that because it aint laggy you dont feel the 'hit' when the turbo comes on full boost
422bhp? - maybe, I would expect you to get about 400-410bhp with the headers........ varies daily on the rollers though - who knows!!!! - suppose its 'how long is a piece of string' with power
Go to PS and you'll get much lower - but that'll give you the motivation to spend a fortune!!! - but enough about me
****........ these aint laggy.. they boost up from about 3100-3200 rpm............ the VF series boost from about 3800 rpm
Ok may be poor compared to standard turbo but cripes this turbo aint laggy...... - its a tiddler of a turbo........ you want to see a proper Turbo - head for a certain garage in Leeds too see the mother of all Turbo's on a certain Mr Wallis's car - thats if its ever on the road.........
Must say that because it aint laggy you dont feel the 'hit' when the turbo comes on full boost
422bhp? - maybe, I would expect you to get about 400-410bhp with the headers........ varies daily on the rollers though - who knows!!!! - suppose its 'how long is a piece of string' with power
Go to PS and you'll get much lower - but that'll give you the motivation to spend a fortune!!! - but enough about me
04 November 2003, 10:28 PM
#37
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 4th i'm getting a bar at about 3200 and 1.5 by 3600. Maximum torque is at 4500.
It will be laggy compared to my old TD04 set-up 300/290, so its probaly just a matter of getting used to it. That said there is still a few mapping tweaks to do!
3rd gear 4000rpm and then nail the throttle, there would be about a second of lag before full motion is achieved!
It will be laggy compared to my old TD04 set-up 300/290, so its probaly just a matter of getting used to it. That said there is still a few mapping tweaks to do!
3rd gear 4000rpm and then nail the throttle, there would be about a second of lag before full motion is achieved!
04 November 2003, 10:29 PM
#38
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
You have the 20G wheel in yours though steve I was trying to identify if the garret wheel version is different or is it a control issue causing the lag ?
Andy
I was trying to identify if the garret wheel version is different or is it a control issue causing the lag ?Andy
04 November 2003, 10:32 PM
#40
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Andy - my bad explanation: the 'poo in the lower gears' is because of my lack of mapping skills - sticking on a Dawes removes the problem (me 
), ie. it's not the turbo, and more importantly here, not the headers! 
), ie. it's not the turbo, and more importantly here, not the headers!
04 November 2003, 10:36 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not too sure Andy! it all happens a bit quick by the time it comes in and i've only got 7000rpm to play with!
Not too sure the Ecutek will give me full boost in first!!!!!
I would go out and try it now but the clutch has gone 
Not too sure the Ecutek will give me full boost in first!!!!!
I would go out and try it now
but the clutch has gone
04 November 2003, 10:38 PM
#43
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Ok, I see
Interestingly, the 06 hybrid can actually spool quicker than the std 05. This is because the turbo boosts at lower rpm. ie with the 16g, 1 bar boost requires 115,000 rpm at 3000 eng rpm. The 20g requires only 91,000 rpm. This is offset slightly by the bigger diameter compressor wheel but the inertia is mainly in the turbine which remains std.
Andy
Interestingly, the 06 hybrid can actually spool quicker than the std 05. This is because the turbo boosts at lower rpm. ie with the 16g, 1 bar boost requires 115,000 rpm at 3000 eng rpm. The 20g requires only 91,000 rpm. This is offset slightly by the bigger diameter compressor wheel but the inertia is mainly in the turbine which remains std.
Andy
04 November 2003, 10:58 PM
#45
Headers
Thought they were about 2.5 inches - narrowing inside ........ maybe I'm just making it up though - Alan or Andy should know for sure - the Techies...........
Andy - will let you know this weekend once its mapped - if I'm still in chatty mood once its been mapped and I get an ear bashing from Bob for going for such a small Turbo........ but hey - what a Turbo for the price - cant fault it for the price - VFM it certainly is!!!!
I go by 1 bar for the 3200 - not full boost - full boost by 3600 rpm - yes please - I'll but that for a $ - my car was misfiring badly on the last mapping session -so could not get it mapped - once its mapped it may be amazing
Thought they were about 2.5 inches - narrowing inside ........ maybe I'm just making it up though - Alan or Andy should know for sure - the Techies...........
Andy - will let you know this weekend once its mapped - if I'm still in chatty mood once its been mapped and I get an ear bashing from Bob for going for such a small Turbo........ but hey - what a Turbo for the price - cant fault it for the price - VFM it certainly is!!!!
I go by 1 bar for the 3200 - not full boost - full boost by 3600 rpm - yes please - I'll but that for a $ - my car was misfiring badly on the last mapping session -so could not get it mapped - once its mapped it may be amazing
05 November 2003, 11:45 AM
#49
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05 November 2003, 12:03 PM
#50
The GT-Spec and Flat 4 headers are all pretty much the same as Gruppe-s, which are all slightly tweaked HKS replicas.
The choice really isn't that confusing beyond which credit card to pay on.
Paul
The choice really isn't that confusing beyond which credit card to pay on.
Paul
05 November 2003, 01:14 PM
#52
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paul, my confusion is only based on which one to pick Didn't fancy the Gruppe S ones, heard too much about leaking / blowing flanges etc.
This site has a few others on there, Cusco, Borla, Jun
Have a look theres some nice stuff here Headers
Didn't fancy the Gruppe S ones, heard too much about leaking / blowing flanges etc.This site has a few others on there, Cusco, Borla, Jun
Have a look theres some nice stuff here Headers
05 November 2003, 02:22 PM
#53
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Just found out that the Rigoli Cars use standard un-ported headers, described as the best compromise between power & lag. They did try a set of ported OE ones but the turbo spooled up 1000rpm later and so they reverted back to standard That sounds like the most cost effective option
That sounds like the most cost effective option
05 November 2003, 02:40 PM
#54
I also hear that steam engines are making a comeback.
Perhaps you should read some of the Rigoli's latest interviews on Autospeed. Also worth noting the Rigolis have a habit of using prehistoric T-series turbos that are lag monsters. They also used to use standard heads and cams, relying on stupid amounts of boost to make the power. Things have moved on, using tweaked heads and cams, more efficient turbos that don't have to fight the heads (so don't need to be as big) and tubular headers are all being done by the Rigolis now.
Do a search for some of Andy Forrest's dyno plots from Star rolling road, which show the 40hp or so gained at the top end from 5500-7500, without losing any power lower down the rev range.
Paul
Perhaps you should read some of the Rigoli's latest interviews on Autospeed. Also worth noting the Rigolis have a habit of using prehistoric T-series turbos that are lag monsters. They also used to use standard heads and cams, relying on stupid amounts of boost to make the power. Things have moved on, using tweaked heads and cams, more efficient turbos that don't have to fight the heads (so don't need to be as big) and tubular headers are all being done by the Rigolis now.
Do a search for some of Andy Forrest's dyno plots from Star rolling road, which show the 40hp or so gained at the top end from 5500-7500, without losing any power lower down the rev range.
Paul
05 November 2003, 02:46 PM
#55
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I sense some sarcasm in your post there Paul
I just got that info in an email minutes ago? Are they telling me pork pies then?
Do you have the link to the AUTOSPEED site please?
I just got that info in an email minutes ago? Are they telling me pork pies then?
Do you have the link to the AUTOSPEED site please?
05 November 2003, 03:33 PM
#56
The autospeed articles are pay to play I'm afraid, but I will dig out some quotes. The interview I read was from about 4 months ago.
I think anyone considering std headers would be making a backward step. And just because someone has made a high peak power figure with a paticular tuning methodology, doesn't mean that it's the best way.
I am not going to do all the running round, if people want to determine the best way forward, they should find it themselves.
You can lead a horse to water...
Paul
I think anyone considering std headers would be making a backward step. And just because someone has made a high peak power figure with a paticular tuning methodology, doesn't mean that it's the best way.
I am not going to do all the running round, if people want to determine the best way forward, they should find it themselves.
You can lead a horse to water...
Paul
05 November 2003, 07:19 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just ordered a set of Gruppe-s headers $499 dollars delivered to the door in 5 working days
Right! now i wonder if Pat is spare for some mapping towards the end of next week, just in time for PE
Scott
btw, next question! How long do you think my WRX engine will last running 400bhp???????
$499 dollars delivered to the door in 5 working days Right! now i wonder if Pat is spare for some mapping towards the end of next week, just in time for PE
Scott
btw, next question! How long do you think my WRX engine will last running 400bhp???????
05 November 2003, 08:09 PM
#60
It's amazing the amount of performance we're seeing from WRXs with standard heads - is there much room left for improvement in terms of flow?
"In the last six months we've started doing the heads. I think we got a fair way with the standard heads on my car and on Jamie's - the guy that used to work for me - but now the cars we're doing with headwork we aren't pushing the same boost and the power is still there. I'd say it is better. The last engine we ported also had a set of cams in it - and that sounded tough!"
Is the standard cast iron exhaust manifold any good?
"Yeah, we still use the standard ones. At one stage we had extractors made to mount the turbo in front of the engine - and that made the most power we've ever got out of one of those engines. That was a big job, though - we had to move the radiator and everything else and it also sounded a lot different. The next set-up I want to try is an engine with headwork and extractors."
"In the last six months we've started doing the heads. I think we got a fair way with the standard heads on my car and on Jamie's - the guy that used to work for me - but now the cars we're doing with headwork we aren't pushing the same boost and the power is still there. I'd say it is better. The last engine we ported also had a set of cams in it - and that sounded tough!"
Is the standard cast iron exhaust manifold any good?
"Yeah, we still use the standard ones. At one stage we had extractors made to mount the turbo in front of the engine - and that made the most power we've ever got out of one of those engines. That was a big job, though - we had to move the radiator and everything else and it also sounded a lot different. The next set-up I want to try is an engine with headwork and extractors."
Paul